Sam was put in charge of SG-5 so that she could check out the black hole. Then the mission went wrong, so SG-1 was sent with them. Mitchell radioed back to the SGC saying he was the leader of SG-1 because he was for that mission. Sam then proceeded to do her job as the leader of SG-5. She worked with the DHD because she was the best person for the job. You really think the AF has a rule that says no one can do anything outside there own mission objective if they're the best person for the job?
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Originally posted by LightsabreYes and I'd like some PROOF it was a MILTARY mission.
Originally maybe, but the follow up with the scientists doesn't seem to be military. However if you have some proof it was, please share it.!
Each mission will be explicitly detailed in the mission briefing carefully deliniating the mission objectives, who is in charge of what and who is the mission commander. The mission commander is the one in charge.
Originally posted by LightsabreMy dear lord.
In one breath I'm telling you about military and in the other, I'm arguing with people who are saying the same thing.
If Jack, Carter and Hammond are in a room, Hammond is in charge, then jack, then sam.
Originally posted by LightsabreNow, Sam was in charge of SG-5(according to you), Sam is a subordinate on SG-1 and Cam is in charge of SG-1. Therefore, Cam is in ultimate charge of the mission.
So yes, she should have checked with him.
I CANNOT make this any clearer.
Now the questions were not answered in the episode, we did not see the mission objectives for the second mission. However it would be logical to assume the following based on the scene you are talking about.
The black hole observations was one mission objective.
Carter was still in charge of SG-5 and the black hole observations - logical as she was originally slated for this AND when she gives the order NO ONE behaves as if she should not be giving this order INCLUDING Mitchell.
Carter then states she will them check the DHD and looks to him for confirmation, Mitchell nods his approval.
To me this says that either Mitchell is the mission commander OR SG-1 is along for the safety for SG-5. Carter still has the black hole mission objective responsiblity. So the order she gives is a valid one. The DHD part could be construed as falling under Mitchell's responsibility so she states what she is going to do and looks for permission, which she gets.
I really do not see this scene as you do.-
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Originally posted by ParadoxRealitiesSam was put in charge of SG-5 so that she could check out the black hole. Then the mission went wrong, so SG-1 was sent with them. Mitchell radioed back to the SGC saying he was the leader of SG-1 because he was for that mission. Sam then proceeded to do her job as the leader of SG-5. She worked with the DHD because she was the best person for the job. You really think the AF has a rule that says no one can do anything outside there own mission objective if they're the best person for the job?
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Originally posted by RealmOfXThe Stargate project is a military project, ALL missions are military. It has military and scientific objectives, with both civilian and military personnel under military command. Just because a mission may have a scientific objective with civilians involved does not mean it is not a military mission.
Each mission will be explicitly detailed in the mission briefing carefully deliniating the mission objectives, who is in charge of what and who is the mission commander. The mission commander is the one in charge.
Originally posted by RealmOfX
Yup in this case you are correct. However, they are on a mission not in a room.
Are ytou saying in the field, Jack would give Hammond an order?
Originally posted by RealmOfX
Nope faulty logic. Who was the mission commander? What were the mission objectives and who was responsible for them?
Originally posted by RealmOfXNow the questions were not answered in the episode, we did not see the mission objectives for the second mission. However it would be logical to assume the following based on the scene you are talking about.
The black hole observations was one mission objective.
Carter was still in charge of SG-5 and the black hole observations - logical as she was originally slated for this AND when she gives the order NO ONE behaves as if she should not be giving this order INCLUDING Mitchell.
Carter then states she will them check the DHD and looks to him for confirmation, Mitchell nods his approval.
Further, she DOES look to Mitchell, but phrases her sentences in such a way that it seems she's speaking to an equal.
IF Mitchell is leading, then he is her CO. They are not equals.
If they are equals, she can't be on the team.
That simple.
Originally posted by RealmOfXTo me this says that either Mitchell is the mission commander OR SG-1 is along for the safety for SG-5. Carter still has the black hole mission objective responsiblity. So the order she gives is a valid one. The DHD part could be construed as falling under Mitchell's responsibility so she states what she is going to do and looks for permission, which she gets.
I really do not see this scene as you do.
But the first thing Daniel and Teal'c do is go looking for something. Which doesn't sound much like protection.
And SG-1 tends to be the team taht does the mission, with a team like G-5 along for the ride.
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She wasn't on SG-1, she was leading SG-5 and completing the mission. The two teams aren't completly tied down.
Originally posted by LightsabreHad Mitchell been killed, and it came out that Landry knew what had been going on, do you really think they'd just blame Mitchell or would Landry have to account for it? THat's what being In Charge means.
Originally posted by LightsabreJack couldn't disobey in combat, he's always led it.
Fact is, he has committed court martialable offences and not been court martialed.
Originally posted by LightsabreThis is the next SGC scene after Lee leaves. IF Carter was in command, and Lee left, wouldn't they be back on the planet?
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Your muddled logic and reasoning never cease to amaze me.
Where do you get that SG-1 was in charge of the DHD? Landry ordered Sam to figure out how to get there and when she got there she ensured they could get home by working on the offworld DHD. She also ordered SG-5 to begin setting things up...which was why she was there.
It looks to me like you're making things up as you go along and you're certainly putting words in my mouth as I never said anything about SG-1 and the DHD.
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Originally posted by LightsabreMitchell is hardly likely to step all over her if she shouldn't. He's the new guy and Carter has a lot of respect at the SGC.
Further, she DOES look to Mitchell, but phrases her sentences in such a way that it seems she's speaking to an equal.
IF Mitchell is leading, then he is her CO. They are not equals.
If they are equals, she can't be on the team.
That simple.sigpic
"Out of the Abyss" (SJ Angst)....................Best New Author.................."Else Close the Wall Up" (Sam)
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Ok, things have been a little heated and a little confused.
I'd just like to sum up my position and hopefully clear a lot of that up.
I like Sam Carter as a character. I think she's great. A little overloaded, but great.
I also quite like Cameron Mitchell. I think he's doing a great job.
Who should lead.
In-world(SGC world).
Honestly, who should lead, Mitchell. Before anything else, he was given the job, Carter had it, she quit, and he got it. IF you quit your job, they hire someone else, they don't fire that person if you come back.
Basically, I haven't been impressed with episodes where Carter has lead and I think she has enough to do without the added burden of command.
Real-world(ie TPTB view) I think assigning lead to Carter would overload the character.
She's already a soldier and a pilot and a genius in about 100 different fields.
She neatly fills the science and warrior niche in the team(daniel too, is more of a scientist/warrior than before). I think if she took on leadership role, the show would quickly become dominated by her. I like SG-1 to be a little bit formulaic, and I wouldn't like to see that.
Carter led in S8 yes, but Jack/RDA was still the lead and still dominated many of the storylines/leadership decisions.
We didn't see her lead much, and the dynamic wasn't overly changed. She led a little bit more, but on the whole, it was Jack.
Ok, so that's my position, that's where I"m coming from.
I hope that clears a few things up.
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Originally posted by ParadoxRealitiesShe wasn't on SG-1, she was leading SG-5 and completing the mission. The two teams aren't completly tied down.
I'm not saying Landry wouldn't GET blamed, I'm saying that it's Mitchell's job to monitor his own actions.
Originally posted by ParadoxRealitiesthere are different levels of intensity there. Mitchell violeted a direct order from the his CO in combat for no reason while he should have been watching out for his own behavior.
Originally posted by ParadoxRealitiesI think you're going to have to go over that again, sorry.
Clearly, Hammond sided with Lee, which he WOULD not have done had he disobeyed Carter, because he had to protect chain of command.
Therefore, Carter CANNOT have had the authority she said she did.
I see it more that Lee was leading the scientists and Carter, as a member of SG-1, was working with them, not over them.
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Originally posted by LightsabreMitchell is hardly likely to step all over her if she shouldn't. He's the new guy and Carter has a lot of respect at the SGC.
Further, she DOES look to Mitchell, but phrases her sentences in such a way that it seems she's speaking to an equal.
IF Mitchell is leading, then he is her CO. They are not equals.
If they are equals, she can't be on the team.
That simple.
Militarily speaking, at this point in time, neither of them has any authority over the other. Every superior officer has spoken to them like a sort of package deal, both at the SGC and in the field. The only time it was CLEARLY STATED that one had authority over the other was in Stronghold. And, disturbingly enough, the one who had 1) not taken part in gathering ANY intel, 2) missed the pre-mission briefing, and 3) was (understandably) late to the Gateroom, was the one who disobeyed a direct order in combat - a mistake that very easily could've killed all of SG-1 and the other members of their squadron. No excuses. There is no justification for that, especially given how intense combat was when he disobeyed the order.
Other than that controversial, historical moment, Cam and Sam have been treated as a command duo, lame "SG-Leader" comment aside.
The fact that there were no repercussions is just one more example of "teh wondur that is s9" and all of its glory.
Besides, if they're equals (which they evidently are), based on their behavior (including The Scourge), if you don't look at the gender of the individuals and just look at their actions, Cam would most definitely be the one who'd be voted off the island. But we won't go there. Because gender is a factor.
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Originally posted by ÜberSG-1FanYour muddled logic and reasoning never cease to amaze me.
Originally posted by ÜberSG-1FanWhere do you get that SG-1 was in charge of the DHD? Landry ordered Sam to figure out how to get there and when she got there she ensured they could get home by working on the offworld DHD. She also ordered SG-5 to begin setting things up...which was why she was there.
Therefore, Sam was crossing over into Mitchell's mission when she examined the DHD. What I am pointing out is a flaw in your argument. I am not for one second advocating this ridiculous scenario, YOU are. I am merely pointing out what YOU allege is the case. And as you pointed out, it's muddled and ridiculous
Originally posted by ÜberSG-1FanIt looks to me like you're making things up as you go along and you're certainly putting words in my mouth as I never said anything about SG-1 and the DHD.
SG-5 -Black hole
SG-1-Authorisation device(which includes the DHD).
Yes you never actually wrote DHD, but it's included.
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Well, since there's nothing to debate there and I'm exhausted, I'll say well put. (darn, I'm out of green!)
I think Sam is a wonderful character that deserves to be in command after all her great work. I've been suitable impressed with her in command, and frankly not at all impressed my Mitchell. I think the problem with Mitchell is due to TPTB 1)trying to force him to the front 2)trying to make him like jack 3)running out of good stories 4)changing the team dynamic so much at once. I do see how its possible that Sam would dominate the show, but I think it also allows for different types of eps, ones more focused around her command, around Daniel, the Jaffa, Landry, Lam, or even Walter ().
In fact, I think it would be a good creative tool for TPTB because they wouldn't be able to make cheap plots; they'd have to do character development and out-of-this-universe (yay, sci-fi!) plots.
I think if TPTB had introduced Mitchell while trying to preserve the team dynamic, they would have.sigpic
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Originally posted by the dancer of spazShe phrases her statements like she's talking to an equal because she IS talking to an equal. And, while Carter has a lot of respect at the SGC, when she's talking to a superior (i.e. Pendergast, the boring CO of the Odyssey, Reynolds), she speaks to them like they're a superior. The only reason why they'd write Carter as speaking to Mitchell the way she does is to distinctly and clearly address the fact that they ARE equals.
Originally posted by the dancer of spazMilitarily speaking, at this point in time, neither of them has any authority over the other. Every superior officer has spoken to them like a sort of package deal, both at the SGC and in the field. The only time it was CLEARLY STATED that one had authority over the other was in Stronghold. And, disturbingly enough, the one who had 1) not taken part in gathering ANY intel, 2) missed the pre-mission briefing, and 3) was (understandably) late to the Gateroom was the one who disobeyed a direct order. No excuses. There is no justification for that, especially given how intense combat was when he disobeyed it.
Originally posted by the dancer of spazOther than that controversial, historical moment, Cam and Sam have been treated as a command duo, lame "SG-Leader" aside.
Originally posted by the dancer of spazThe fact that there were no repercussions is just one more example of "teh wondur that is s9" and all of its glory.
Originally posted by the dancer of spazBesides, if they're equals (which they evidently are), based on their behavior (including The Scourge), if you don't look at the gender of the individuals and just look at their actions, Cam would most definitely be the one who'd be voted off the island. But we won't go there.
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Originally posted by LightsabreIt's ALSO the job of his CO.
A court martialable offence is a court martialable offence.
If Carter had been in command, she wouldn't have been back at the SGC trying to convince Hammond to use another method to find Jack.
Clearly, Hammond sided with Lee, which he WOULD not have done had he disobeyed Carter, because he had to protect chain of command.
Therefore, Carter CANNOT have had the authority she said she did.
I see it more that Lee was leading the scientists and Carter, as a member of SG-1, was working with them, not over them.
Yes, and I wasn't trying to address court marshal, I was trying to address that Mitchell made a very bad mistake.
Maybe Sam wasn't operating in military capacity. But, Lee did follow her order once. Military/civilian relations are quite odd (trust me CAP's the not-so-happy medium between them. Though it is much more military in protocol.) The way I see it, Dr. Lee listened to Sam once because she was in charge of that aspect of the mission.
Originally posted by LightsabreAgain, Cam was never shown as part of the group that Carter led. While it might be understood he was under her command, it's never DIRECTLY STATED in the ep.sigpic
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You still don't get it do you?
Originally posted by LightsabreThen explain the eps I mentioned where the scientists give the military guys orders.
Originally posted by LightsabreSame difference.
Are ytou saying in the field, Jack would give Hammond an order?
Originally posted by LightsabreFrom the sounds of it, Mitchell is the answer to all 3.
Originally posted by LightsabreMitchell is hardly likely to step all over her if she shouldn't. He's the new guy and Carter has a lot of respect at the SGC.
Originally posted by LightsabreFurther, she DOES look to Mitchell, but phrases her sentences in such a way that it seems she's speaking to an equal.
IF Mitchell is leading, then he is her CO. They are not equals.
If they are equals, she can't be on the team.
That simple.
On missions you have objectives.
Each objective is assigned to someone, this person is allowed to give orders to achieve this objective.
Each mission is assigned a commander.
When there is a conflict between mission objectives/orders the mission commander is the one to resolve it.
The way I (and many others) saw that scene was :
SG-5 had the mission objective of the black hole observations. Carter was responsible for achieving this objective (as per the first mission).
SG-1 was either in charge of the now more dangerous mission or assigned for protection - it can be argued either way. The DHD operating correctly obviously comes under a safety issue and therefore falls under Mitchell's domain. Carter looked to him for permission for the DHD stuff and got it.
Carter acted correctly.-
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