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    Sam was put in charge of SG-5 so that she could check out the black hole. Then the mission went wrong, so SG-1 was sent with them. Mitchell radioed back to the SGC saying he was the leader of SG-1 because he was for that mission. Sam then proceeded to do her job as the leader of SG-5. She worked with the DHD because she was the best person for the job. You really think the AF has a rule that says no one can do anything outside there own mission objective if they're the best person for the job?
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    Comment


      Originally posted by Lightsabre
      Yes and I'd like some PROOF it was a MILTARY mission.
      Originally maybe, but the follow up with the scientists doesn't seem to be military. However if you have some proof it was, please share it.!
      The Stargate project is a military project, ALL missions are military. It has military and scientific objectives, with both civilian and military personnel under military command. Just because a mission may have a scientific objective with civilians involved does not mean it is not a military mission.

      Each mission will be explicitly detailed in the mission briefing carefully deliniating the mission objectives, who is in charge of what and who is the mission commander. The mission commander is the one in charge.

      Originally posted by Lightsabre
      My dear lord.
      In one breath I'm telling you about military and in the other, I'm arguing with people who are saying the same thing.
      If Jack, Carter and Hammond are in a room, Hammond is in charge, then jack, then sam.
      Yup in this case you are correct. However, they are on a mission not in a room.

      Originally posted by Lightsabre
      Now, Sam was in charge of SG-5(according to you), Sam is a subordinate on SG-1 and Cam is in charge of SG-1. Therefore, Cam is in ultimate charge of the mission.
      So yes, she should have checked with him.
      I CANNOT make this any clearer.
      Nope faulty logic. Who was the mission commander? What were the mission objectives and who was responsible for them?
      Now the questions were not answered in the episode, we did not see the mission objectives for the second mission. However it would be logical to assume the following based on the scene you are talking about.
      The black hole observations was one mission objective.
      Carter was still in charge of SG-5 and the black hole observations - logical as she was originally slated for this AND when she gives the order NO ONE behaves as if she should not be giving this order INCLUDING Mitchell.
      Carter then states she will them check the DHD and looks to him for confirmation, Mitchell nods his approval.

      To me this says that either Mitchell is the mission commander OR SG-1 is along for the safety for SG-5. Carter still has the black hole mission objective responsiblity. So the order she gives is a valid one. The DHD part could be construed as falling under Mitchell's responsibility so she states what she is going to do and looks for permission, which she gets.

      I really do not see this scene as you do.
      -

      Comment


        Originally posted by ParadoxRealities
        Sam was put in charge of SG-5 so that she could check out the black hole. Then the mission went wrong, so SG-1 was sent with them. Mitchell radioed back to the SGC saying he was the leader of SG-1 because he was for that mission. Sam then proceeded to do her job as the leader of SG-5. She worked with the DHD because she was the best person for the job. You really think the AF has a rule that says no one can do anything outside there own mission objective if they're the best person for the job?
        My point still stands. IF she was on SG-1, she was subordinate to Mitchell.

        Comment


          Originally posted by RealmOfX
          The Stargate project is a military project, ALL missions are military. It has military and scientific objectives, with both civilian and military personnel under military command. Just because a mission may have a scientific objective with civilians involved does not mean it is not a military mission.

          Each mission will be explicitly detailed in the mission briefing carefully deliniating the mission objectives, who is in charge of what and who is the mission commander. The mission commander is the one in charge.
          Then explain the eps I mentioned where the scientists give the military guys orders.

          Originally posted by RealmOfX

          Yup in this case you are correct. However, they are on a mission not in a room.
          Same difference.
          Are ytou saying in the field, Jack would give Hammond an order?
          Originally posted by RealmOfX

          Nope faulty logic. Who was the mission commander? What were the mission objectives and who was responsible for them?
          From the sounds of it, Mitchell is the answer to all 3.
          Originally posted by RealmOfX
          Now the questions were not answered in the episode, we did not see the mission objectives for the second mission. However it would be logical to assume the following based on the scene you are talking about.
          The black hole observations was one mission objective.
          Carter was still in charge of SG-5 and the black hole observations - logical as she was originally slated for this AND when she gives the order NO ONE behaves as if she should not be giving this order INCLUDING Mitchell.
          Carter then states she will them check the DHD and looks to him for confirmation, Mitchell nods his approval.
          Mitchell is hardly likely to step all over her if she shouldn't. He's the new guy and Carter has a lot of respect at the SGC.
          Further, she DOES look to Mitchell, but phrases her sentences in such a way that it seems she's speaking to an equal.
          IF Mitchell is leading, then he is her CO. They are not equals.
          If they are equals, she can't be on the team.
          That simple.
          Originally posted by RealmOfX
          To me this says that either Mitchell is the mission commander OR SG-1 is along for the safety for SG-5. Carter still has the black hole mission objective responsiblity. So the order she gives is a valid one. The DHD part could be construed as falling under Mitchell's responsibility so she states what she is going to do and looks for permission, which she gets.

          I really do not see this scene as you do.
          Obviously. If SG-1 was only there for protection I would agree with you.
          But the first thing Daniel and Teal'c do is go looking for something. Which doesn't sound much like protection.
          And SG-1 tends to be the team taht does the mission, with a team like G-5 along for the ride.

          Comment


            She wasn't on SG-1, she was leading SG-5 and completing the mission. The two teams aren't completly tied down.
            Originally posted by Lightsabre
            Had Mitchell been killed, and it came out that Landry knew what had been going on, do you really think they'd just blame Mitchell or would Landry have to account for it? THat's what being In Charge means.
            I'm not saying Landry wouldn't GET blamed, I'm saying that it's Mitchell's job to monitor his own actions.
            Originally posted by Lightsabre
            Jack couldn't disobey in combat, he's always led it.
            Fact is, he has committed court martialable offences and not been court martialed.
            there are different levels of intensity there. Mitchell violeted a direct order from the his CO in combat for no reason while he should have been watching out for his own behavior.
            Originally posted by Lightsabre
            This is the next SGC scene after Lee leaves. IF Carter was in command, and Lee left, wouldn't they be back on the planet?
            Yes.
            I think you're going to have to go over that again, sorry.
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            Comment


              Your muddled logic and reasoning never cease to amaze me.

              Where do you get that SG-1 was in charge of the DHD? Landry ordered Sam to figure out how to get there and when she got there she ensured they could get home by working on the offworld DHD. She also ordered SG-5 to begin setting things up...which was why she was there.

              It looks to me like you're making things up as you go along and you're certainly putting words in my mouth as I never said anything about SG-1 and the DHD.

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              Comment


                Originally posted by Lightsabre
                Mitchell is hardly likely to step all over her if she shouldn't. He's the new guy and Carter has a lot of respect at the SGC.
                Further, she DOES look to Mitchell, but phrases her sentences in such a way that it seems she's speaking to an equal.
                IF Mitchell is leading, then he is her CO. They are not equals.
                If they are equals, she can't be on the team.
                That simple.
                As soon as Landry told her to take SG-5 out, the command order changed. Sam became the CO of SG-5, and (later) Cam took out SG-1 to help SG-5. He could well be the the mission leader, because SG-1 has the military objective, but its not entirely clear. For the rest I defer to Uber.
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                Comment


                  Ok, things have been a little heated and a little confused.
                  I'd just like to sum up my position and hopefully clear a lot of that up.

                  I like Sam Carter as a character. I think she's great. A little overloaded, but great.
                  I also quite like Cameron Mitchell. I think he's doing a great job.

                  Who should lead.
                  In-world(SGC world).
                  Honestly, who should lead, Mitchell. Before anything else, he was given the job, Carter had it, she quit, and he got it. IF you quit your job, they hire someone else, they don't fire that person if you come back.
                  Basically, I haven't been impressed with episodes where Carter has lead and I think she has enough to do without the added burden of command.

                  Real-world(ie TPTB view) I think assigning lead to Carter would overload the character.
                  She's already a soldier and a pilot and a genius in about 100 different fields.
                  She neatly fills the science and warrior niche in the team(daniel too, is more of a scientist/warrior than before). I think if she took on leadership role, the show would quickly become dominated by her. I like SG-1 to be a little bit formulaic, and I wouldn't like to see that.
                  Carter led in S8 yes, but Jack/RDA was still the lead and still dominated many of the storylines/leadership decisions.
                  We didn't see her lead much, and the dynamic wasn't overly changed. She led a little bit more, but on the whole, it was Jack.

                  Ok, so that's my position, that's where I"m coming from.
                  I hope that clears a few things up.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by ParadoxRealities
                    She wasn't on SG-1, she was leading SG-5 and completing the mission. The two teams aren't completly tied down.
                    I'm not saying Landry wouldn't GET blamed, I'm saying that it's Mitchell's job to monitor his own actions.
                    It's ALSO the job of his CO.
                    Originally posted by ParadoxRealities
                    there are different levels of intensity there. Mitchell violeted a direct order from the his CO in combat for no reason while he should have been watching out for his own behavior.
                    A court martialable offence is a court martialable offence.
                    Originally posted by ParadoxRealities
                    I think you're going to have to go over that again, sorry.
                    If Carter had been in command, she wouldn't have been back at the SGC trying to convince Hammond to use another method to find Jack.
                    Clearly, Hammond sided with Lee, which he WOULD not have done had he disobeyed Carter, because he had to protect chain of command.
                    Therefore, Carter CANNOT have had the authority she said she did.
                    I see it more that Lee was leading the scientists and Carter, as a member of SG-1, was working with them, not over them.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Lightsabre
                      Mitchell is hardly likely to step all over her if she shouldn't. He's the new guy and Carter has a lot of respect at the SGC.
                      Further, she DOES look to Mitchell, but phrases her sentences in such a way that it seems she's speaking to an equal.
                      IF Mitchell is leading, then he is her CO. They are not equals.
                      If they are equals, she can't be on the team.
                      That simple.
                      She phrases her statements like she's talking to an equal because she IS talking to an equal. And, while Carter has a lot of respect at the SGC, when she's talking to a superior (i.e. Pendergast, the boring CO of the Odyssey, Reynolds), she speaks to them like they're a superior. The only reason why they'd write Carter as speaking to Mitchell the way she does is to distinctly and clearly address the fact that they ARE equals.

                      Militarily speaking, at this point in time, neither of them has any authority over the other. Every superior officer has spoken to them like a sort of package deal, both at the SGC and in the field. The only time it was CLEARLY STATED that one had authority over the other was in Stronghold. And, disturbingly enough, the one who had 1) not taken part in gathering ANY intel, 2) missed the pre-mission briefing, and 3) was (understandably) late to the Gateroom, was the one who disobeyed a direct order in combat - a mistake that very easily could've killed all of SG-1 and the other members of their squadron. No excuses. There is no justification for that, especially given how intense combat was when he disobeyed the order.

                      Other than that controversial, historical moment, Cam and Sam have been treated as a command duo, lame "SG-Leader" comment aside.

                      The fact that there were no repercussions is just one more example of "teh wondur that is s9" and all of its glory.

                      Besides, if they're equals (which they evidently are), based on their behavior (including The Scourge), if you don't look at the gender of the individuals and just look at their actions, Cam would most definitely be the one who'd be voted off the island. But we won't go there. Because gender is a factor.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by ÜberSG-1Fan
                        Your muddled logic and reasoning never cease to amaze me.
                        Really? Cause this one came from YOU.
                        Originally posted by ÜberSG-1Fan
                        Where do you get that SG-1 was in charge of the DHD? Landry ordered Sam to figure out how to get there and when she got there she ensured they could get home by working on the offworld DHD. She also ordered SG-5 to begin setting things up...which was why she was there.
                        FROM YOU. YOU wrote that SG-5(which includes Sam as CO) was tasked with looking at the black hole and SG-1 was tasked with investigating the authorisation device.
                        Therefore, Sam was crossing over into Mitchell's mission when she examined the DHD. What I am pointing out is a flaw in your argument. I am not for one second advocating this ridiculous scenario, YOU are. I am merely pointing out what YOU allege is the case. And as you pointed out, it's muddled and ridiculous
                        Originally posted by ÜberSG-1Fan
                        It looks to me like you're making things up as you go along and you're certainly putting words in my mouth as I never said anything about SG-1 and the DHD.
                        Read the post. The same thing I've written for the last 3 posts.
                        SG-5 -Black hole
                        SG-1-Authorisation device(which includes the DHD).
                        Yes you never actually wrote DHD, but it's included.

                        Comment


                          Well, since there's nothing to debate there and I'm exhausted, I'll say well put. (darn, I'm out of green!)
                          I think Sam is a wonderful character that deserves to be in command after all her great work. I've been suitable impressed with her in command, and frankly not at all impressed my Mitchell. I think the problem with Mitchell is due to TPTB 1)trying to force him to the front 2)trying to make him like jack 3)running out of good stories 4)changing the team dynamic so much at once. I do see how its possible that Sam would dominate the show, but I think it also allows for different types of eps, ones more focused around her command, around Daniel, the Jaffa, Landry, Lam, or even Walter ().
                          In fact, I think it would be a good creative tool for TPTB because they wouldn't be able to make cheap plots; they'd have to do character development and out-of-this-universe (yay, sci-fi!) plots.
                          I think if TPTB had introduced Mitchell while trying to preserve the team dynamic, they would have.
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                          Comment


                            Originally posted by the dancer of spaz
                            She phrases her statements like she's talking to an equal because she IS talking to an equal. And, while Carter has a lot of respect at the SGC, when she's talking to a superior (i.e. Pendergast, the boring CO of the Odyssey, Reynolds), she speaks to them like they're a superior. The only reason why they'd write Carter as speaking to Mitchell the way she does is to distinctly and clearly address the fact that they ARE equals.
                            SHe has the right to call him by name, but she cannot TELL him what she will do if he is leading the mission. YOu state that he needs to obey her in 'Stronghold' when she is lead, therefore she must have to obey him when HE is lead.
                            Originally posted by the dancer of spaz
                            Militarily speaking, at this point in time, neither of them has any authority over the other. Every superior officer has spoken to them like a sort of package deal, both at the SGC and in the field. The only time it was CLEARLY STATED that one had authority over the other was in Stronghold. And, disturbingly enough, the one who had 1) not taken part in gathering ANY intel, 2) missed the pre-mission briefing, and 3) was (understandably) late to the Gateroom was the one who disobeyed a direct order. No excuses. There is no justification for that, especially given how intense combat was when he disobeyed it.
                            Again, Cam was never shown as part of the group that Carter led. While it might be understood he was under her command, it's never DIRECTLY STATED in the ep.
                            Originally posted by the dancer of spaz
                            Other than that controversial, historical moment, Cam and Sam have been treated as a command duo, lame "SG-Leader" aside.
                            Agreed.
                            Originally posted by the dancer of spaz
                            The fact that there were no repercussions is just one more example of "teh wondur that is s9" and all of its glory.
                            Like there were no reprecussions for 'Gemini'.
                            Originally posted by the dancer of spaz
                            Besides, if they're equals (which they evidently are), based on their behavior (including The Scourge), if you don't look at the gender of the individuals and just look at their actions, Cam would most definitely be the one who'd be voted off the island. But we won't go there.
                            How so? Cam screwed up once. SG-1 commits court martialable offences all the time.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Lightsabre
                              It's ALSO the job of his CO.

                              A court martialable offence is a court martialable offence.

                              If Carter had been in command, she wouldn't have been back at the SGC trying to convince Hammond to use another method to find Jack.
                              Clearly, Hammond sided with Lee, which he WOULD not have done had he disobeyed Carter, because he had to protect chain of command.
                              Therefore, Carter CANNOT have had the authority she said she did.
                              I see it more that Lee was leading the scientists and Carter, as a member of SG-1, was working with them, not over them.
                              You're absoultly right, it is the job of his CO. But I happen to believe Mitchell was not in enough emotional destress to be taken off such and imprtant mission. I believe that Landry was right in putting him there, and that any offcier of his (supposed) caliber could have handled it.

                              Yes, and I wasn't trying to address court marshal, I was trying to address that Mitchell made a very bad mistake.

                              Maybe Sam wasn't operating in military capacity. But, Lee did follow her order once. Military/civilian relations are quite odd (trust me CAP's the not-so-happy medium between them. Though it is much more military in protocol.) The way I see it, Dr. Lee listened to Sam once because she was in charge of that aspect of the mission.

                              Originally posted by Lightsabre
                              Again, Cam was never shown as part of the group that Carter led. While it might be understood he was under her command, it's never DIRECTLY STATED in the ep.
                              This is a combat mission, Cam was going into combat. There is no way around him being under her command. How would you like to lead a group into combat and suddenly you need to order something but there's some arrogant idiot of your same rank (I am NOT saying Cam is an arrogant idiot, I'm saying that the protocal needs to take these people into account) and he won't follow your order because supposedly he's not under yuor command. The leader of a combat mission is the leader of EVERYONE on it. It's too dangerous otherwise.
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                              Comment


                                You still don't get it do you?

                                Originally posted by Lightsabre
                                Then explain the eps I mentioned where the scientists give the military guys orders.
                                Simple - the scientist(s) had a mission objective to achieve and they were responsible for it. They needed the military blokes to help them achieve something so they issue an order like "take those samples back to camp". If it was a legal order the military dudes would follow it, if not they would say no, any conflicts of opinion would be referred to the mission commander. Just because you are in charge of a mission objective and are allowed to give orders in respect of this objective does not mean you are in charge of the mission.

                                Originally posted by Lightsabre
                                Same difference.
                                Are ytou saying in the field, Jack would give Hammond an order?
                                YES - depending on the mission, the objectives and the assigned responsibilities.

                                Originally posted by Lightsabre
                                From the sounds of it, Mitchell is the answer to all 3.
                                As I said these questions were not explicitly answered in the episode.


                                Originally posted by Lightsabre
                                Mitchell is hardly likely to step all over her if she shouldn't. He's the new guy and Carter has a lot of respect at the SGC.
                                Actually if she shouldn't be giving an order then it is his responsiblity to take it up with her, this can be in private or in public depending on the severity of the offence. However, it looked to be a legitimate order. Carter looked directly at SG-5 and gave an order, EVERYONE accepted it as a legitimate order. Carter then stated she would handle the DHD and looked to Mitchell for approval, which she got.


                                Originally posted by Lightsabre
                                Further, she DOES look to Mitchell, but phrases her sentences in such a way that it seems she's speaking to an equal.
                                IF Mitchell is leading, then he is her CO. They are not equals.
                                If they are equals, she can't be on the team.
                                That simple.
                                You still don't seem to grasp military command.
                                On missions you have objectives.
                                Each objective is assigned to someone, this person is allowed to give orders to achieve this objective.
                                Each mission is assigned a commander.
                                When there is a conflict between mission objectives/orders the mission commander is the one to resolve it.

                                The way I (and many others) saw that scene was :
                                SG-5 had the mission objective of the black hole observations. Carter was responsible for achieving this objective (as per the first mission).
                                SG-1 was either in charge of the now more dangerous mission or assigned for protection - it can be argued either way. The DHD operating correctly obviously comes under a safety issue and therefore falls under Mitchell's domain. Carter looked to him for permission for the DHD stuff and got it.

                                Carter acted correctly.
                                -

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