Who should lead SG1?(Spoilers)

[the dancer of spaz]

I seem to recall MITCHELL getting himself out of this one. SAm, Daniel and Teal'c did squat.
Doesn't fit.

Cameron did squat to get himself out, as well. The government was willing to sweep it under the rug and let bygones be bygones, just so they could continue their research. It wasn't about to affect diplomatic relations on their side. It was only after Cameron pursued it that the answer was found. But, in this case, the answer wasn't essential to his freedom. His desire to find out who killed her shows his integrity, however, which definitely won him points in my book. It was great for Cameron's character development, but his freedom rested solely on the shoulders of the planet's government, which didn't give a hoot either way who killed the woman.

Again, doesn't fit. Unless you intend to penalise anyone who's ever had a comrade shoot an enemy off their back.
Mitchell made his run, Sam and Daniel bailed him out but this is not a case of him getting himself into trouble, it was Cam pursing the mission goals.
Doesn't fit.

Let me break it down so you understand:

Cam runs without waiting for back up.

Sam taps Daniel, and the two head after him.

Two Jaffa come up behind Cam, ready to blow him to bits or otherwise eliminate him from this current plane of existence.

Sam and Daniel zat the Jaffa, saving Cam from an untimely demise.

If that doesn't fit your definition of "trouble," I don't know what does.

(As to the 'what took you so long' comment, clearly he was trying to distract the Jaffa)

He was CLEARLY trying to distract them. From the two people with zats BEHIND them. Whom they couldn't even see. Riiight. OK.

Off THe Grid was specificall EXCLUDED. The fact you and others keep including it tells me this is a weak argument.

I'm thinking there are a couple of reasons why we have to keep mentioning it, and the fact that it's a "weak argument" is not one of them.

How did he get himself into trouble and need to be bailed out?

Was the fact that, directly after he was overtaken by the Lucian Alliance cronies, they were being pursued by said cronies not a big enough clue?

Something went down that they evidently deemed not important enough for us to see, but it doesn't take someone your young cousin's age to understand that that means something bad happened. Something that could be roughly defined as, "Trouble." Trouble that Cameron was, at some point, bailed out of by members of his team.

[Lightsabre]

Cameron did squat to get himself out, as well. The government was willing to sweep it under the rug and let bygones be bygones, just so they could continue their research. It wasn't about to affect diplomatic relations on their side. It was only after Cameron pursued it that the answer was found. But, in this case, the answer wasn't essential to his freedom. His desire to find out who killed her shows his integrity, however, which definitely won him points in my book. It was great for Cameron's character development, but his freedom rested solely on the shoulders of the planet's government, which didn't give a hoot either way who killed the woman.

I asked for instances he got himself into trouble and the team bailed him out.
THis isn't one of them. You can hardly blame Cam for what happened either.
It doesn't fit.

Let me break it down so you understand:

Cam runs without waiting for back up.

Sam taps Daniel, and the two head after him.

Two Jaffa come up behind Cam, ready to blow him to bits or otherwise eliminate him from this current plane of existence.

Sam and Daniel zat the Jaffa, saving Cam from an untimely demise.

If that doesn't fit your definition of "trouble," I don't know what does.

HUH?
Let me explain this to you.
IF Daniel shoots a Jaffa off Sam in battle, that does NOT mean he's bailed her out nor that she got herself in trouble.
The same applies here.

He was CLEARLY trying to distract them. From the two people with zats BEHIND them. Whom they couldn't even see. Riiight. OK.

Try re-watching the ep.
It's fairly clear he see's them and then keeps the Jaffa's attention firmly on him.

I'm thinking there are a couple of reasons why we have to keep mentioning it, and the fact that it's a "weak argument" is not one of them.

So, I say, aside from Off the Grid, when did they need to bail him out and you tell me, 'Stronghold', which is a battle situation, so it hardly counts.
Basivcally, the Cam keeps getting himself in trouble argument doesn't hold, since you really only have Off the Grid to base it on.

Was the fact that, directly after he was overtaken by the Lucian Alliance cronies, they were being pursued by said cronies not a big enough clue?

Something went down that they evidently deemed not important enough for us to see, but it doesn't take someone your young cousin's age to understand that that means something bad happened. Something that could be roughly defined as, "Trouble." Trouble that Cameron was, at some point, bailed out of by members of his team.

How does this have to do with Arthur's mantle?
For that matter, using that logic, the rest of the team have bailed each other out many, many many times, so they are as culpable as Cameron.

[the dancer of spaz]

I asked for instances he got himself into trouble and the team bailed him out.
THis isn't one of them. You can hardly blame Cam for what happened either.
It doesn't fit.

Oh, OK. The TEAM didn't bail him out of the trouble in which he found himself, but then again, neither did he. Great. Whatever.

HUH?
Let me explain this to you.
IF Daniel shoots a Jaffa off Sam in battle, that does NOT mean he's bailed her out nor that she got herself in trouble.
The same applies here.

The same DOES NOT apply here, as Cameron deliberately ran into enclosed, hostile territory where he was alone and couldn't defend himself. Daniel and Sam shot the Jaffa because Cameron was cornered, surrounded, and had no way of talking himself out of the situation. It's not the same as shooting someone who's ready to shoot your teammate when you guys are in combat together.

Try re-watching the ep.
It's fairly clear he see's them and then keeps the Jaffa's attention firmly on him.

Thanks for the fantastic advice, but I've rewatched the ep MULTIPLE times - specifically this scene. There was no risk of the Jaffa turning around, as their focus was on the armed dude at the rings, meaning HIM. Plus, if they had, it wouldn't have mattered, as Daniel and Sam were already armed and aiming their weapons at them. They would've zatted them before they could even turn around. His line was pointless - nothing more than another way to be witty.

So, I say, aside from Off the Grid, when did they need to bail him out and you tell me, 'Stronghold', which is a battle situation, so it hardly counts.
Basivcally, the Cam keeps getting himself in trouble argument doesn't hold, since you really only have Off the Grid to base it on.

This logic kinda follows your "Captain vs. Colonel" argument doesn't it? You know the kind, I'm sure.

The instances in Collateral Damage, Stronghold and Off The Grid could have been prevented, had Cameron behaved differently.

For that matter, using that logic, the rest of the team have bailed each other out many, many many times, so they are as culpable as Cameron.

Please bring up one of your lovely examples so we can properly compare the characters. It shouldn't be too hard either. You've got eight years of material for four other character (five, if you count Jonas).

[Lightsabre]

Oh, OK. The TEAM didn't bail him out of the trouble in which he found himself, but then again, neither did he. Great. Whatever.

Mitchell went through considerable pain and suffering and refused to take the easy way out.
He got himself out.

The same DOES NOT apply here, as Cameron deliberately ran into enclosed, hostile territory where he was alone and couldn't defend himself. Daniel and Sam shot the Jaffa because Cameron was cornered, surrounded, and had no way of talking himself out of the situation. It's not the same as shooting someone who's ready to shoot your teammate when you guys are in combat together.

Umm, what?
It's exactly the same. They were in combat together. The jaffa were going to shoot Mitchell.

Thanks for the fantastic advice, but I've rewatched the ep MULTIPLE times - specifically this scene. There was no risk of the Jaffa turning around, as their focus was on the armed dude at the rings, meaning HIM. Plus, if they had, it wouldn't have mattered, as Daniel and Sam were already armed and aiming their weapons at them. They would've zatted them before they could even turn around. His line was pointless - nothing more than another way to be witty.

Really?
So you noticed then that Mitchell wasn't WEARING an earpiece and could easily have missed the order?
You noticed that Sam and Daniel only made the run into the spaceship when it started powering up. THey weren't after Mitchell, they were after Teal'c
And finally, you'd have seen Mitchell deliberately keeping the jaffa's attention on himself.

This logic kinda follows your "Captain vs. Colonel" argument doesn't it? You know the kind, I'm sure.

I've never made a capt/Col argument. If you think I have, you didn't understand it.

The instances in Collateral Damage, Stronghold and Off The Grid could have been prevented, had Cameron behaved differently.

And had Jack not shot Reese, the replicators might not have destroyed Othalla.
And had Jack not slept with teh chick in 100 days, he wouldn't have aged.
Had Sam not disabled [b]security protocols[b] in Red sun, the planet would not have been under threat.
Had Teal'c not shot down the Al kesh, then he and Jack would not have been trapped.
Using this logic, all of them are screwups who dont' think as well.

Please bring up one of your lovely examples so we can properly compare the characters. It shouldn't be too hard either. You've got eight years of material for four other character (five, if you count Jonas).

Crystal Skull.

[warmbeachbrat]

I apologize in advance for the length of this post.

I don't see how Droops could possibly justify Cameron going away to a woman's house without telling anyone, when his obvious intent was to get some action. It's not his fault that he was framed for murder because of her ex-husband's jealousy (whoa, I just got a major soap opera vibe there... must be channeling BSG...), but it WAS his fault that he was in that situation.

I do NOT agree that Cam's obvious intent was to get some action.

Quotes from two of Droops posts from the Collateral Damage episode thread:

SHE asked HIM to walk her home. He demurred, to which she said "don't you have crime on your planet?"

In other words, 'PLEASE WALK ME HOME, IT'S DANGEROUS AND I WOULD FEEL BETTER WITH SOMEONE WALKING WITH ME.' It's not like Cam followed her home, or stalked her, or forced his way into it. SHE is the one who asked, she is the one who pushed the issue. What was he supposed to do, tell her No, I don't give a rat's *** about your safety?

Obviously he found her attractive but he did NOT initiate this. Come on people.

Besides, this romance lasted all of, what, 30 seconds? Then the rest of the show was about something else. It was a fine way to get the plot moving along.

I don't think anything happened. I think they were followed home and she was killed soon after that. You see her husband go by the bar and she is still dressed as she was before.

I have been overseas representing the U.S. government. I would not, while on the clock, have any untoward relationships. I wouldn't have any with anyone in the company that we were reviewing, because I'm in an adversarial position with those companies and it would be unethical. But I HAVE been out on dates with others that I've met while overseas.

They were at a social gathering and were not required to wear full dress uniforms. They were among friends, or hoped-for friends. I agree that it's probably not a smart thing to do, but I can also guarantee you that such things DO happen at diplomatic receptions, which are far more formal than this gathering was, and don't result in people getting fired.

We also don't know how many times the team had visited this planet. Maybe they'd already been there numerous times, building up familiarity and a certain casualness. One always has to be on guard, but if you're stiff and aloof and stand-offish every time it isn't very helpful in establishing good relations.

IMO, and again, this is just IMO, context is everything here and while I personally wouldn't have done what he did, I can't say that what he did was inappropriate.

A couple of other quotes that shed light on the episode:

Starfox:

2) It's been heavily implied by several people that Cam and Reya had sex. I gotta disagree. Look at her during the memories of the murder and when they show the body. She's wearing the same dress and her hair is still in an updo. Those two things lead me to believe that Cam did the responsible thing and left. Also, I'm pretty sure that the moment Marell found the memory splice was Reya bidding Cam good-night at the front door. See? He's still a gentleman.

Zelda:

Thank you, NotAscended. I came across your post while reading this thread and the part of the discussion that wondered if Mitchell was appropriate in his flirtation during a diplomatic mission off world. I watched the episode again, and I think you are right. Mitchell's immediate attraction to Raya was the result of the initial memory transplant.

... the Ambassador is a bit more interested in the scientist than he should be. Note the Ambassador/Mitchell lightly running his fingers over the sleeve of Raya's robe and watch how he's looking at her as he's saying many good things are expected of her. The set up is strange, too. It is night, Raya is coming from another part of the house, in a robe, saying she was not expecting anyone, while the Ambassador has somehow let himself in and made himself comfortable with a drink. The entire setup is creepy. It's not overt but it is pretty certain the Ambassador is interested in the scientist in a non-professional way (thank you Ben for that subtle performance as creepy Ambassador).

And, when you think about that, that particular memory may have been selected as the implant partly to interest the Tauri diplomat in Raya with the goal of obtaining favorable reports for the negotiation with the Tauri regarding the technology swap. Daniel and Teal'c wondered why so much of Raya's information had been censored by the government; perhaps her affair with the Ambassador and the true extent of technological advancement of the device were conveniently removed.

[Strix varia]

Spaz said "The same DOES NOT apply here, as Cameron deliberately ran into enclosed, hostile territory where he was alone and couldn't defend himself. Daniel and Sam shot the Jaffa because Cameron was cornered, surrounded, and had no way of talking himself out of the situation. It's not the same as shooting someone who's ready to shoot your teammate when you guys are in combat together."

Lightsabre said "Umm, what? It's exactly the same. They were in combat together. The jaffa were going to shoot Mitchell."

Strix says, um, no it's not exactly the same. Mitchell made a decision to separate himself from his team and put himself in a position of vulnerability all alone, which is NOT the same as accepting a position of vulnerability along with one's team.

[Strix varia]

THey weren't after Mitchell, they were after Teal'c.

No, they weren't. Or, more accurately, there is no way to know that for certain. However, given that neither of them went with Mitchell up to the ship (which they would have done if their only motivation was to go after Teal'c), I do, in fact, think that the story as presented indicates otherwise.

[Uber]

Strix says, um, no it's not exactly the same. Mitchell made a decision to separate himself from his team and put himself in a position of vulnerability all alone, which is NOT the same as accepting a position of vulnerability along with one's team.

Since I'm done trying to explain how choosing to not give into a bad impulse is a sign of wisdom and maturity (my forehead is a bit battered from the texture and density of the solid brick wall it was previously engaged with), I'll comment on this post instead.

As you said, Strix...it is not the same at all. He chose to put himself into a position that had he obeyed orders he wouldn't have been in to begin with. Very big difference.

In fact as I previously posted, his actions potentially put the mission at risk as well as his life and the lives of his teammates. It was not a heroic act but rather an action born of recklessness.

Not nearly the same as the times the team as a team get caught in a situation together after working as a team and respecting the chain of command, which was in this mission...CARTER.

[Strix varia]

And finally, you'd have seen Mitchell deliberately keeping the jaffa's attention on himself.

No, I wouldn't have. I saw Mitchell making a glib remark to the effect that he knew Sam and Daniel would follow him.

[Lightsabre]

No, I wouldn't have. I saw Mitchell making a glib remark to the effect that he knew Sam and Daniel would follow him.

Well, I guess if that is all you want to see, that is what you will see.

[Lightsabre]

No, they weren't. Or, more accurately, there is no way to know that for certain. However, given that neither of them went with Mitchell up to the ship (which they would have done if their only motivation was to go after Teal'c), I do, in fact, think that the story as presented indicates otherwise.

Both Mitchell's and Sam and Daniel's runs were predicated on the assumption the rings were working.
Sam changes her plan, deliberately and tells Mitchell to go.
Neither of them went because, as she says, of the danger of getting cut off.
THAT is why they do not go with him.
Watch the ep, they are at the bottom of the hill, the ha'tak starts to lift off, they look at each other, say 'It's taking off' and run.
TO me, they seem to be pursuing the mission goals rather than following Mitchell.

[Lightsabre]

As you said, Strix...it is not the same at all. He chose to put himself into a position that had he obeyed orders he wouldn't have been in to begin with. Very big difference.

The point remains that someone shooting an enemy off someone doesn't mean they've been bailed out.
It's in battle and battles are fluid.

In fact as I previously posted, his actions potentially put the mission at risk as well as his life and the lives of his teammates. It was not a heroic act but rather an action born of recklessness.

HOW did he risk the issues or lives of his teammates?
If Sam and daniel hadn't come in, he'd be captured or dead, but that would have stopped them getting the ha'tak or risked anyone else.
Cam went alone.

Not nearly the same as the times the team as a team get caught in a situation together after working as a team and respecting the chain of command, which was in this mission...CARTER.

there have been multiple times that SG-1 has disrespected the chain of command and taken solo actions that hurt the team AND the mission goal.
Oh wait, I forgot, past seasons are only relevant if they help YOUR argument, aren't they?

[suse]

QUOTE=Lightsabre]My response stated that he was waiting, not going forward.
He was not abandoning anyone, he was fulfilling the mission goal.
And I re-iterate he was NOT relying on Carter and Daniel. HAd the rings not been broken, he would have been aboard the ha'tak before they arrived.
He was not waiting for them, he was simply distracting the jaffa.

But the rings *were* broken. No amount of "what if's" can change that point. I agree he wasn't waiting for them. He was distracting the unconcious Jaffa. Though he was still there because his *leader*/backup had to get up there to fix the rings. So he (may have) saved no time at all by running ahead because he was futzing around with tech he did not know how to fix. There are too many variables.

They were winning at that point. But what if re-inforcements had arrived?
They could easily have been pushed back

And where would Mitchell have been then? Stuck at the broken rings.

So Mitchell won the battle for them

Whatever.

Holding his position would have got him killed when the jaffa he zatted woke up behind him.

Er, rezat them? This was combat, right? It's not as if the Jaffa are using zats. *They* are trying to kill their enemy.

Suse

[suse]

.

His grand scheme got his entire team captured and were seconds away from being executed when the magic fairy beam from above rescued them. In this case, the Big3 didn't do it. This time they were stuck with him.True.

Ooooo. Can I use this line? LOL!!!

Suse

[suse]

Okay, you both have points here. (Don't pass out Lightsabre :-))

What Sam did in The 5th Man was wrong. Inecusable? She had alien pheremones in her system totally jacking up her emotions far past normal. (Remember Frasier's explanation? But in the end, most definitely wrong. Good thing logic won out, huh? ;-)

Then again, Cam was wrong to keep going to the ship in Stronghold. There were places he could have waited (and perhaps taken out other Jaffa to get his teammates with him faster) *as he was ordered to do*. However is no way to know probability here for either scenario.

Suse

Quote:
Originally Posted by ÜberSG-1Fan
Thus demonstrating he understood there were consequences to his actions and he chose to obey.

Lightsabre:
A wise and mature decision would be not comtemplating the tantrum. Backing down because of the threat of punishment is neither wise nor mature.
I'm sorry, but it's not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ÜberSG-1Fan
I beg to differ. She could have been much more aggressive and done something incredibly stupid. She chose to back down when she saw it was a lose-lose scenario.

Lightsabre:
And? So? Therefore? The fact she did not make things worse does not excuse her behaviour in the slightest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ÜberSG-1Fan
I said the fact that he needed to vent his anger on the battlefield causing him to be reckless was inexcuseable. I have no problem with people being emotional.


Oh, so when Sam is angry and wants to go back, she' emotional. When Mitchell is angry, he's reckless. Got it.
Any other double standards I need to know about?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ÜberSG-1Fan

I stand corrected. Initially he said Sargeant and then expanded it to airmen when Sam, Daniel and Teal'c wouldn't back down and wouldn't stop talking about an imaginary team member.

Lightsabre:
Yes, that's it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ÜberSG-1Fan
Cam had been denied permission to advance. She very clearly ordered him to wait for backup. He continued anyway.

Lightsabre:
Cam was MAKING his run and if he had stopped he probably would have been killed.
Big Difference.