Who should lead SG1?(Spoilers)

[Dani347]

Any officer rank is a leadership rank.
Captain's command.
So do liutenants.

I think what people are saying (and they can tell me if I'm wrong) is that a lt. colonel has had more time than a captain or a liutenant to gain experience and wisdom, so more is expected of someone with a higher rank, although they would still be just as accountable. Am I right?

[Deevil]

In other words, a Lt Colonel -- the one who would lead -- is expected to behave in a manner befitting that rank and station. (yes?)

Exactly, the higher in rank you go the more responsibility and accountability you hold, not only for your actions but from those under them. The idea is that you lead by example and by action/order; not solely by order.

If you act in in deference to your rank, you are doing a more then a diservice to those in your command; you are spitting in the face of your rank and station.

And yes lightsabre Capt. and Lt. command, but they answer up the chain of command, and if the head of the snake disobeys and order - it's body follows.

[Lightsabre]

Exactly, the higher in rank you go the more responsibility and accountability you hold, not only for your actions but from those under them. The idea is that you lead by example and by action/order; not solely by order.

If you act in in deference to your rank, you are doing a more then a diservice to those in your command; you are spitting in the face of your rank and station.

And yes lightsabre Capt. and Lt. command, but they answer up the chain of command, and if the head of the snake disobeys and order - it's body follows.

I agree with all this.
But it doesn't effect my argument.
Carter disobeyed, Cam disobeyed.
The disobedience had NOTHING to do with their rank or experience and solely to do with personal reasons.

[suse]

Any officer rank is a leadership rank.
Captain's command.
So do liutenants.

By that definition Sam IS a leader. But she did not have *responsibility* for the team in either episode you mention from S1. Are you saying she had jsut as much right to lead as Jack?
Suse

[Deevil]

I agree with all this.
But it doesn't effect my argument.
Carter disobeyed, Cam disobeyed.
The disobedience had NOTHING to do with their rank or experience and solely to do with personal reasons.

No, the act of disobedience has nothing to do with rank. The judgement of disobedience does. Mitchell should have acted as a Lt. Col. not as a green soilder (which is what Carter was on S1).

Add to that this is not Mitchell's first command, he command the X-302 squadran, likely commanded many more. He is in essence more experienced in the 'art' of command the Carter and thus should know the importance of following orders.

He deliberatly disobeyed and order, in a firefight no less, and could have potentially put the whole mission is jeporady.

As for Daniel leaving in a firefight in Lost City - he located the mission objective, as is his job. Is there as specific reason you can bring up other members of SG-1 and no one else can?

I understand you want to defend Mitchell, but this line of pursuit still after all this time makes no sense.

[suse]

]

That is their right.
However, I'm not explaining it again. IT's been explained. Agree or don't.
however, I will say it again, for the comparision I am making, rank is irrelevant.

I don't agree. It is very relevent.

Umm, I don't see how this matters.
Please explain

You said emotion didn't enter into Carters responses regarding her actions with Cassie. I was pointing pointing out her emotions were very relevent. And she did not risk anyone else's life besides hers. Cam did.

Sam's decision may have been wrong from a miltary standpoint rerders, but from a human standpoint leaving a little girl who is unconscious and will never know she blew up is far different from leaving (locking!) an awake scared lttle girl who saw the last of her people die and was left alone in a cold dank pitch black bunker alone is just wrong.

Again, don't understand

.

I don't understand what you don't understand.
Sam was Jonas's ex-fiance. It had been over since before they were both transfered to the SGC. She had some emotional distance. Cam had maybe an hour of emotional distance from his friends death. Not long enough to control the shock.

Stuffing up by be going is still not an excuse to do what he did in a battle situation.A reason, but not an excuse.

No, I didn't I took the first instance I remembered.
I only needed one to refute the claim.

[/QUOTE]
I already said this wasn't valid as it was Daniel and not really relevant to the discussion
Okay. Name an instance *Sam* took off in a firefight.

[Pharaoh Atem]

i think that it should be mitchell

[Pharaoh Atem]

i think that it should be mitchell

[Lightsabre]

By that definition Sam IS a leader. But she did not have *responsibility* for the team in either episode you mention from S1. Are you saying she had jsut as much right to lead as Jack?
Suse

Yes, she is expected to be able to lead a team. Is she especially good at it?
Not in my opinion. Can seh do it? yes.
I never said she had just as much right to lead as Jack.
The comment by DEM was a Lt Col, one who would lead, is held to a higher standard.
My reply was any officer rank is a command rank, which means they also would lead.
So I don't see the higher standard.

[Lightsabre]

No, the act of disobedience has nothing to do with rank. The judgement of disobedience does. Mitchell should have acted as a Lt. Col. not as a green soilder (which is what Carter was on S1).

Carter was NOT green. She had combat hours. How can you call that green?
She was in hte military, she knew how it works.
You cannot say Mitchell should not lead because he is inexperienced, then exonerate carter for insubordination by reason of inexperience.

Add to that this is not Mitchell's first command, he command the X-302 squadran, likely commanded many more. He is in essence more experienced in the 'art' of command the Carter and thus should know the importance of following orders.

This is where his mental state comes into play.

He deliberatly disobeyed and order, in a firefight no less, and could have potentially put the whole mission is jeporady.

Carter disobeyed a direct order to return and report. This was vital as if SG-1 disappeared, SGC would NOT know what was going on.

As for Daniel leaving in a firefight in Lost City - he located the mission objective, as is his job. Is there as specific reason you can bring up other members of SG-1 and no one else can?

The exact line was 'No one on SG-1 has ever run off in a firefight'.
Daniel did, so that disproves this.
I don't recall saying you cannot bring up other members of SG-1. Merely that comparing Jack and Cam is not relevant as the thread is specifically Cam V Sam.
I'm not comparing Daniel to Cam, I was pointing out a faulty statement.

I understand you want to defend Mitchell, but this line of pursuit still after all this time makes no sense.

Umm, what?

[suse]

I

Above, you asked and I responded that Carter was the leader. Now you want Mitchell as the leader?
I'm confused.

As you should be. I wasn't very clear. Mitchell was co-leader with Sam at the other times. He maybe consulted, then did whatever the heck he wanted, leaving the rest SG-1 to clean up after his half-baked ideas.

She rarely pushed for her view,even if she thought O'Neill's decision wrong. ie Unnatural Selection.
To me, that's a follower. She spoke up, but she never really went beyond that.

To me, that's military protocal. In a battle situation. Kinda hard to bring it up in front of the enemy.

Hmm, so she will obey a command with the threat of a court martial. In Singularity, she quite clearly disobeyed a direct order(a court martialable offence).
THis doesn't hold.

Never mind. This has been explained ad nauseum.

Where was this? I don't remember it.

Zero hour, I think. Beginning of S8. Baal, plant, rings.

My point was that it didn't disobey the 'stay under the radar' order

No, Mitchell just told other drug dealers they had more competition and got them captured. They infiltrated very cleanly. Woulda gone fine if the pesky dealers had no brains.

<g> And I'm very proud of myself for not typing the obvious end to that statement.

Suse

[Lightsabre]

]


I don't agree. It is very relevent.

Why? As I have said, Ad nauseum, Sam has no more or less obligation to obey her superior officer as a captain than as a Lt Col.

You said emotion didn't enter into Carters responses regarding her actions with Cassie. I was pointing pointing out her emotions were very relevent. And she did not risk anyone else's life besides hers. Cam did.

No, I said it DID.
And I disagree Cam risked anyone's life.

Sam's decision may have been wrong from a miltary standpoint rerders, but from a human standpoint leaving a little girl who is unconscious and will never know she blew up is far different from leaving (locking!) an awake scared lttle girl who saw the last of her people die and was left alone in a cold dank pitch black bunker alone is just wrong.

I agree. Irrelevant tho. The fact is, we were discussing orders.
And, I might point out, no one has yet been able to tell me how Cam does NOT fit the mitigating circumstances I listed.

.

]
I don't understand what you don't understand.
Sam was Jonas's ex-fiance. It had been over since before they were both transfered to the SGC. She had some emotional distance. Cam had maybe an hour of emotional distance from his friends death. Not long enough to control the shock.

I completely agree. However, it's odd you say this as it goes against sam.

Stuffing up by be going is still not an excuse to do what he did in a battle situation.A reason, but not an excuse.

No, it's not. However, like I said, all 3 of them stuffed up. Cam shouldn't have gone, Landry shouldn't have let him and neither should Sam.
And I'm sorry, we've all agreed that Sam was in charge, that means Mitchell was HER responsibility and she should have barred him or spoken to Landry.

]
I already said this wasn't valid as it was Daniel and not really relevant to the discussion

It answers your question tho.

]
Okay. Name an instance *Sam* took off in a firefight.

Can't off the top of my head. What does this prove?

[Lightsabre]

As you should be. I wasn't very clear. Mitchell was co-leader with Sam at the other times. He maybe consulted, then did whatever the heck he wanted, leaving the rest SG-1 to clean up after his half-baked ideas.

Can you explain this more fully?
I'm not sure how it's relevant or what it applies to.

To me, that's military protocal. In a battle situation. Kinda hard to bring it up in front of the enemy.

I don't recall specifying battle situation.
I'm talking about ANY situation.

]

Never mind. This has been explained ad nauseum.

Yup

]
Zero hour, I think. Beginning of S8. Baal, plant, rings.

Don't remember it.

]
No, Mitchell just told other drug dealers they had more competition and got them captured. They infiltrated very cleanly. Woulda gone fine if the pesky dealers had no brains.

Yeah, cause drug dealers NEVER have competition.
My point was and is that if they had not been captured (Which was NOT mitchell's fault), the Alliance wouldn't have known they were from Earth.

]
<g> And I'm very proud of myself for not typing the obvious end to that statement.

Suse

I'm glad you didn't as well. It wouldn't have been pleasant.

[Deevil]

Carter was NOT green. She had combat hours. How can you call that green?

No Carter had "100 hours in enemy airspace', that does not mean 'combat'. that does not mean she wasn't green. In S1, Carter was very much a Green field officer.

You cannot say Mitchell should not lead because he is inexperienced, then exonerate carter for insubordination by reason of inexperience.

I would really appricate if you would stop placing words into my mouth. I didn't say the Mitchell was inexperienced, I said that he *was* an experienced officer, an experienced command officer and thus should have followed orders. Should have followed the command of the person that had experience with the enemy.

This is where his mental state comes into play.

And this line of reasoning just leads me to believe he is not a fit officer allowing his mental state to affect him in a firefight. Any other time would have been bad enough, but an officer with command experience should not let his personal feelings from something not even happening on the field dictate to him an course of action which could have had disasterous consequences.

Carter disobeyed a direct order to return and report. This was vital as if SG-1 disappeared, SGC would NOT know what was going on.

When did this happen? I don't recall it.

The exact line was 'No one on SG-1 has ever run off in a firefight'.
Daniel did, so that disproves this.

No Daniel did what he was bought there to do, find the ancient database. He found it, and considering he a civilian it makes sense that he was being covered so he can do what needs dictate.

I don't recall saying you cannot bring up other members of SG-1. Merely that comparing Jack and Cam is not relevant as the thread is specifically Cam V Sam.
I'm not comparing Daniel to Cam, I was pointing out a faulty statement.

No the thread it not specifically Cam vs Sam. It has become that.

I don't see what's faulty about saying if you want to compare the actions of someone who is in, or has been in command, compare it to a commander.. The only problem I can see is it doesn't fit into the little 'Sam sucks/Sam is not a good leader (why was that again, because she take orders too well or because she disobeys them?)' world, and thus makes a different line of argument you don't want to take.

I don't understand your line of reasoning that 'Sam did this, therefore Cam can'. It makes no sense, unless you see it that rank means nothing. And if rank does mean nothing, why is there any option for promotion?

Why have promotion at all?

[Lightsabre]

I believe we have already been over the 'didn't risk anyone elses life'. If you would like to address a specific counterargument directly, please specify which (it not clear to me, at least).

It's in the post I was replying to.

The entire outcome of saving Teal'c/Bra'tac was discovered after the fact. Yes, time was of the essence, but the ship had not yet powered up, so there was no actual time frame. Therefore, the outcome can no excuse his actions.

But for Mitchells actions, they would not have gained the ship in time. It was lifting off.
However, if you see above, after the fact is the mitigation that has been advanced for Carter.
If they had advanced as Carter wanted them too, Baal would have been gone.

(Example after the fact) Many other things could have gone wrong, none of which he addressed by NOT waiting for backup.

But again, they didn't.
According to the critiea I specified, Cam having saved Teal'c mitigates his actions.

He took command away from Carter by first not consulting her on his advance, then by violating her direct order, and also by forcing her to move contrary to the plan.

When you disobey a command, you do not take command from anyone.
He did not give orders to anyone nor did he take them with him.
Sam and Daniel FOLLOWED him. They chose to do this of their own volition.
You cannot blame him for their actions.
Mitchell did NOT force her to move. Carter could have let him get shot. Instead, she took the opening HE provided and capitalised on it.
That is improvisation and it's a good trait to have.