Who should lead SG1?(Spoilers)

[Lightsabre]

Please explain what you mean here, as it is not clear. Are you trying to say that it is OK to disobey a direct order while under fire?

No, but look at the situation.
Cam was under fire. Waiting might not have been a good option if wanted to keep living.
Also, Carter spoke into her radio. None of them had headsets. It's possible that Cam just did not hear her order. If he didn't hear it, it's hard to say he disobeyed it.

Carter however, was given a direct order, which she acknowledged and disobeyed.
She TOLD Jack that she would not obey his order in two different episodes.
Tehre was nothing else in her environment that would have affected her ability to obey (ie, for Mitchell, he couldhave waited, but might have gotten shot. Sam didn't have that sort of threat).

So while they both disobeyed, Mitchell's was a heat of the moment thing, Sam's was more cold.

[RealmOfX]

Just because you repeat something over and over doesn't make it true. How about we cut this short and you actually tell us what your definition of ground skills is and give us examples from S9.

Mitchell knows his way around weaponry, he knows the hand signals and he's able to quickly and easily improvise tactics using standard issue gear(like the C4).
To me, that suggest a degree of familiarity that you do not get when you are 'just' a pilot.

I believe I asked for a definition and some examples of it. Care to provide it?

[RealmOfX]

Carter however, was given a direct order, which she acknowledged and disobeyed.

Wrong

[ann_sgcfan]

No, but look at the situation.
Cam was under fire. Waiting might not have been a good option if wanted to keep living.
Also, Carter spoke into her radio. None of them had headsets. It's possible that Cam just did not hear her order. If he didn't hear it, it's hard to say he disobeyed it.

There was a plan that was already in place and it did not involve Mitchell going off wildly on his own. I'm sure they checked the radio's before leaving the planet SoP, so I think it wishful thinking to say Michell didn't hear her. To me he heard and chose not to obey.

[Uber]

I've already responded to how her actions in First Commandment did not constitute insubordination, as has Adal, so I'm not going to repeat myself.

Regarding Sam getting herself captured, Jack might not have implicitly expected her to do specifically what she did...however it's clear from his previous order that he wanted her to create an opportunity. Further, Jack acknowledges it was "probably our only way in without a firefight anyways." As Sam said, "Daniel, I can get to Hanson, that's what the Colonel was talking about." The spirit of his ordered was followed.

I guess I'm still confused by a few things.

Firstly, how can you make a point of adhering to exceedingly strict interpretations of what may or may not constitute insubordination and disobeying a direct order on the one hand and then say, "SG world does NOT go by RL rules"?

Would it not be fair to acknowledge the possibility that perhaps your insistence to continue to use these very few incidents of where Sam questions an order or provides a reasonable rebuttal may be influenced more by a bias or an agenda (to prove in some way that because of her actions 8 years ago she herself is not qualified to lead SG-1) than by the need to prove she's not adhering to RL rules that you yourself admit does not translate 100% to this fictional world?

I suggest this as a possibility because we do have someone who is "in the know" so to speak who can provide a real insight as to what constitutes insubordination and he, an officer...who in court would be considered an "expert witness"...has rebutted your opinion and you've rejected the rebuttal as mere opinion.

Furthermore, all that aside, I still do not understand what this has to do with Mitchell and what he did in Stronghold. He put his team at risk. He ignored a direct order on the field of battle. He left top secret equipment unsecured. What do Sam's actions from 8 years ago have anything to do with what he did? How does her actions from 8 years ago make his actions more palatable as a leader?

[Deevil]

I'm sorry, but how is rank relevant?
If you are a young Lt, or Cap. or hell, a private, how does it make you any less culpable if you do something stupid and risk your own life and the lives of your team, to be a 'hewo'???
It's what Sam did and what you claim Cam did. Cam has the excuse he was in a firefight at the time. Sam does not.

Rank is always relevant because the level of responisbility is relevant to ones actions. Sam was a Capt. whose level of responisbility and knowledge is less then that of a Lt. Col.

Looking at it from this perspective one can make a statement that Mitchell's behaviour was reckless and not becoming of an officer of that rank.

All of the Earth personel we've seen assigned to SG-1 permenently, have been pilots. Mitchell is simply the latest one. We do not know if he is 'just' a pilot, we only know that his last assignments was as a pilot.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a Duck. Even in the flashbacks we have had of Mitchell he is a pilot. All the jobs we know of him having are that of a pilot. Therefore, we can say he is a pilot, because that is all the evidence canon has provided us with.

Not really, as I and others have said, SG world does NOT go by RL rules.

The rank system is one that exists in the real world, and it has been upheld in the SG universe, therefore one can compare it to the RL if they so please. And I say that as an Officer who is a so-called commander of a unit, he is lacking.

Notice the bold point. She TELLS Jack what she will do. Not asks, not makes a case for staying, simply says, "I'm going".
How the hell is that NOT insubordination.

Notice the part where they are not in a firefight, and her could just as easily reinforced his initial order. Obviously after being presented with evidence on how Sam could be used as essentially bait, he decided that this may be the more peaceful of ways to infultrate Jonas' band of merry inmates.

He didn't reinforce, so how is it insubordination?

I think you are misrepresenting what happened here.
What about this part?

Or maybe there is no misrepresenting, maybe it is that you want to see Carter as insubordinate, and some of us don't see it at all...

Mitchell knows his way around weaponry, he knows the hand signals and he's able to quickly and easily improvise tactics using standard issue gear(like the C4).
To me, that suggest a degree of familiarity that you do not get when you are 'just' a pilot.

He either went to the academy, or her trained while he was in college, either way everyone gets this 'degree of familiarity' with these kind of weapons. This does not mean that he is anything more then a pilot though. He trained mostly as a pilot, and was posted in positions as a pilot. Therefore, he is a pilot with no active ground troops experience outside of the academy (which was what, about 20 years previous? Big gap there). This can rub people up the wrong way.

No, but look at the situation.
Cam was under fire. Waiting might not have been a good option if wanted to keep living.
Also, Carter spoke into her radio. None of them had headsets. It's possible that Cam just did not hear her order. If he didn't hear it, it's hard to say he disobeyed it.

But since he alreafy knew of the plan (considering his active part in it), he knew he shouldn't have gone off half-cocked. Therefore, he messed with the plan.

And tbh, there is no excuse for him not waiting. He just didn't want to wait. This was dangerous in a firefight where someone was charged with backing up his sorry arse after this stunt.

Carter however, was given a direct order, which she acknowledged and disobeyed.
She TOLD Jack that she would not obey his order in two different episodes.
Tehre was nothing else in her environment that would have affected her ability to obey (ie, for Mitchell, he couldhave waited, but might have gotten shot. Sam didn't have that sort of threat).

Mitchell cound have gotten shot, to which there is no evidence for (he was protected where he was), but it was okay for him to disobey and order in a firefight. Carter informed her CO that she thought obeying an order was foolhearty and explained why (which gave Jack amble op to refute her beliefs, which he did not), but that was bad because there was no extenuating circumstances? Wow, I have no idea what this proves.

So while they both disobeyed, Mitchell's was a heat of the moment thing, Sam's was more cold.

Which means Sam's was more rational and more thought through then Cameron's. Cameron reacted and Sam acted. A good officer always acts and doesn't react. I have seen Cam doing nothing but react.

[RealmOfX]

No, but look at the situation.
Cam was under fire. Waiting might not have been a good option if wanted to keep living.
Also, Carter spoke into her radio. None of them had headsets. It's possible that Cam just did not hear her order. If he didn't hear it, it's hard to say he disobeyed it.

Carter however, was given a direct order, which she acknowledged and disobeyed.
She TOLD Jack that she would not obey his order in two different episodes.
Tehre was nothing else in her environment that would have affected her ability to obey (ie, for Mitchell, he couldhave waited, but might have gotten shot. Sam didn't have that sort of threat).

So while they both disobeyed, Mitchell's was a heat of the moment thing, Sam's was more cold.

The military take a very dim view of officers ignoring orders because of equipment malfunction. The didn't hear the order excuse would be taken as just that AN EXCUSE. I believe this particular point has been made before.

Mitchell never even attempted to provide cover and allow for an advance which is the whole point of making a break. I believe this particular point has been made before. Mitchell did have cover, you did see those bloody great boulders right next to him didn't you?

In a discussion on leadership it is irrelevant to compare a captain who does not have command and a LT Colonel who does have command. I believe this particular point has been made before.

It has been pointed out by many (who have the military knowledge to do so) that Carter did not disobey an order to return through the gate in S1, that she was not insubordinate and was not disrespecting the chain of command, that she was actually doing her job.

[TameFarrar]

I suggest this as a possibility because we do have someone who is "in the know" so to speak who can provide a real insight as to what constitutes insubordination and he, an officer...who in court would be considered an "expert witness"...has rebutted your opinion and you've rejected the rebuttal as mere opinion.

UberSG-1Fan..I am not picking on you here but I am using your words for a moment.......

I would like to point out that EVERYONE posting here is posting an OPINION period...We have many members who are definitely more knowledgable than others in real life military SOP and the like but here on GateWorld we are discussing a TV Show NOT anyone's specific military as the Real Military is not changed on a whim by writers and producers or TV Execs.

So bearing that in mind everything you post here is in FACT just YOUR opinion and if you disagree with the opinions of others then by all means continue to discuss your reasons for doing so. However, any discussion regarding the member him/herself will be snipped as this thread has a very high flash point and many seem to be intolerant of being disagreed with just because they feel they are MORE informed then others.

Might I suggest if you feel that your discussion at any point is going in circles then you agree to disagree on that point. And move on to the next point of discussion.

Discussion and debate of the ideas and opinions is extremely welcomed but continued snide remarks and/or comments regarding the poster in ANY WAY will not be tolerated

Thanks
TameFarrar
GateWorld Staff

[Deevil]

I would like to point out that EVERYONE posting here is posting an OPINION period

Does this mean we don't have to include the disclaimers of IMO and the like, it's already implied? Because that will make life easier for me, since I hate disclaimers and tend to forget to use them constantly.

[suse]

this is just my personal opinion....
But since this is a fictional show and the writers WILL take dramatic license whenever they need to I think it is a safe bet to stick with what has been been presented on the show. Since RL military is not like this and the best you can ask for is that it is *close* to similar and maybe not even then

Madeleine summed it up nicely in her post above regarding suspension of disbelief. If you are trying to apply real life military protocols then you are going to be disenchanted rather quickly since the writers will and have done whatever they feel serves the story first and people's real life sensiblities second

What happens when something has been presented on the show as canon - spoken, not backsground - that they ignore? Not once but twice? They had General Hammond (in Shades of Gray - season 3) and General O'Neill (in Lockdown - season 8) both say that experienced officers must lead SG-1 especially as it is the flagship. But in season nine they ignored that and put the noob in. That shattered the suspention of disbelief - IMO of course. They broke their own rules set in place for over 5 years This isn't a pip wrong or a C story being ignored

Shouldn't the writers at least stickto their own story? Especially on something this central to the suspention of disbelief.

Suse

[Lightsabre]

Wrong

Umm, I suggest you re-watch 'Singularity'.

[Lightsabre]

There was a plan that was already in place and it did not involve Mitchell going off wildly on his own. I'm sure they checked the radio's before leaving the planet SoP, so I think it wishful thinking to say Michell didn't hear her. To me he heard and chose not to obey.

Have you ever fired a gun?
Believe me, it's quite loud.
It's not hard to believe that in a running battle, Mitchell did not hear his radio.
I'm sure they checked the radio's too. I didn't say the radio was broken, I said Sam's order was inaudible.

[suse]

Still OT, but relavent in a "what's canon" sense... maybe.

ETA: I think the Unas died when the symbiote did because of the age of the host, similar to how Apothos got old when his symbiote was dying. It seems possible that the Asgard device is designed to kill quick enough to not give the symbiote time to release its poison.

i tihnk this is exactly what happens. Vala was just more bad writing. :/ But that's an issue for Anti-S9/10.

Suse

[Deevil]

Shouldn't the writers at least stickto their own story? Especially on something this central to the suspention of disbelief.

I don't think Mitchell should be in charge, but heres my take on what happened in Shades of Gray. Sam was a Major, they wanted the most 'Highest Ranking Officer' in charge of the Flagship team... Nothing to do with experience, because Sam still had the experience then.

In Lockdown, it was a Russian Colonel who wanted to be on SG-1 (he never said in charge), O'Neill already being predisposed to not agreeing with the Russian's, and getting pressure from above said "no" to one of the few things he had control of in the situation.

Add to that, Landry is now in charge. I don't think they have messed with canon as much as they have just done something that doesn't ring true in some of our heads.

My reasons for not wanting Mitchell in charge has nothing to do with what has happened in those 2 episodes. But as we know, and I have stated before, I don't see Mitchell as ever being in charge.

i tihnk this is exactly what happens. Vala was just more bad writing. :/ But that's an issue for Anti-S9/10.

I like Vala... I don't think she is bad writing at all (but Vala is not an issue for here period, unfortunatly)

[suse]

Going back to the thread, re: canon.

Up until this season the canon of the show has been fairly consistant - and if we go by that, Mitchell can not be in the position he is.
If this was S1 of a brand new show would he be more acceptable as the leader?

For me it would be a touch more acceptable since it would then be a variation of the universe with a new suspension of disbelief system.
(Even then he would not be a character who would keep me interested in the show in the long term. *shrug*)

Not wouldn't be acceptable to me. Another "universe", sure. New stuff added, sure. But in the same "universe" the same rules come into play.

Which is why I had such a hard time with Enterprise from almost episode one. Even places before NCC-1701's time Star Trek rules on in play, even if the tech isn't there. The general past had been sketched already, but they ignored it completely. Don't screw with it - at least if you want people to watch and not mock. A lesson that apparently needs to be learned by another creative team.

Suse