Who should lead SG1?(Spoilers)

[Deevil]

We are talking about a situation where Carter needs to fix something to save them AND There is a battle going on.

You and Ryan have fabricated both a senario and a outcome of this event in to hopes that it proves that Sam is unable to complete both jobs, whereas many of us here have presented canon evidence in contrary to this arguement.

I am not saying the hypothetical is a bad idea, but to ignore canon to create an outcome makes no sense and doesn't lend credence to your point. It is possible to do both, I think the question is do you want her to do both?

[minigeek]

You cling to this, yet you have no PROOF of it.
It's not fact, it's not proven.

Neither is Cameron's aptitude for leadership, but you're clinging to that just fine yourself. Tomato, Tomahtoe.

[Lightsabre]

first of all, has anyone else noticed that since sam has been co-leading this year, and to an extent last year too, that Dr. Lee has been taking on a lot more of the sciencey stuff?

Doesn't he screw it up most of hte time?

and i know its been stated before, but how about this for how someone can be both team leader and gate/tech expert;
carter: teal'c, mitchell, lay down cover while we try to get the dhd working!
simple as that. the beauty of radio communication means that she can be kept apprised of the situation everywhere. just like if o'neill were still leading and said, "carter, daniel, go fix the dhd while we lay down cover!", he could be kept informed as to their progress too. leading does not mean being on the front line in combat as far as i'm aware.

And in that situation, it might work. However, Carter could not and should not take the time to be apprasied of any little thing or even big thing happening in the battle. THat means that the 2IC has got to do the CO's job.
And as I said before, the CO is supposed to be the best at the tactics and stragies. They should be running hte battle, not tinkering with tech.

and while we're talking about leadership, is it good leadership to blatantly disregard the standing orders for a mission? as in, when a superior gives you command of a mission, and orders you to "stay under the radar", and as soon as you begin the mission, despite the reminder of your co-leader (or 2IC depending on some peoples opinions), you go ahead and do the complete opposite without reasonable circumstances.

THis is opinion. Others, myself included, see that scene very very differently.

this sort of comes under the example that was given as to why co-leadership does not work. the example given was what if they are in an emergency situation, and each team leader has a differing opinion on what should happen. well its a similar circumstance here, and what happened proved to me, that carter deserves the leadership position more. she couldn't really order cam to do the right thing here, so he went off and did what he wanted to, despite orders.

Cam had NO orders to the contrary, his mission orders were to gather intelligence, his standing orders to stay under the radar. This does NOT mean not getting seen at all. Otherwise how are they supposed to gather intelligence?
No Carter couldn't order Cam to do what SHE wanted, she wasn't the leader.

and as for being accused of being someone else on line? don't worry about it. personally i find ryans arguments, reasoning and his general posting style to be almost identical to lightsabres. but thus far, i have found him to be far more pleasant to deal with. and i was once accused of being Joe Mallozzi in disguise, but i like Joe, so i didn't take offense to it. besides, you never see us in the same place at the same time, so maybe i am Joe... hhmm.

Sorry, but despite everyone saying 'just let it go' I won't. Ryan is NOT me and whatever you all think of me, he doesn't deserve to be discredited and dismissed.

[Uber]

No, actually it wasn't.
Sam went from misson leader to tech. But this is NOT the situation Ryan and myself reffered to.
We are talking about a situation where Carter needs to fix something to save them AND There is a battle going on. In this ep, the battle was effectively stopped for Cam, Sam and Daniel while she was doing her tech thing.

Erm...sorry. The battle continued on.

Just because the camera focused on Sam and the others in the ring room while she fixed the ring platform doesn't mean everything else came to a halt. Further, she had the foresight to have other capable leaders out there to keep the mission on track when she rushed to back Mitchell up.

[minigeek]

We are talking about a situation where Carter needs to fix something to save them AND There is a battle going on.

In which case she delegates (which is what a leader does), and her team does what they need to do while she fixes what she needs to fix. Exactly as would occur if she wasn't the leader, except she'd delegate *herself* to fix whatever the others couldn't. No different than when there's a ship to fly and a battle going on - in which case Mr. Pilot!Leader would delegate the ground-stuff, too. Different tasks delegated by different people to different people, but absolutely zero difference in terms of leadership.

[Lightsabre]

Neither is Cameron's aptitude for leadership, but you're clinging to that just fine yourself. Tomato, Tomahtoe.

Wow.
I said that in no way is the argument tha BB only got a job on Stargate becase of gender bias proven.
And your extremely intelligent response is the Mitchell's leadership isn't either.
I'm not clinging to anything. Mitchell has proved himself a leader.

[Deevil]

Curious, where does it say a CO has to be the best at tactics and stragies? Incidently, just because she isn't 'on the line' so to speak, doesn't mean she is not being a CO. Once again you are ignoring something fundemental, they have radios in order to communicate with one another.

Or are we to completely ignore this fact?

[Lightsabre]

Erm...sorry. The battle continued on.

Just because the camera focused on Sam and the others in the ring room while she fixed the ring platform doesn't mean everything else came to a halt. Further, she had the foresight to have other capable leaders out there to keep the mission on track when she rushed to back Mitchell up.

Hence why I said for Cam, Sam and Daniel
THe battle did continue, but Sam wasn't runnign it, was she?
No, she completely ignored a battle SHE WAS IN CHARGE OF, to fix the rings.
That could have consequences. And she did not once use her radio to check the status of said battle.
The fact of other leaders is irrelevant. Delegation is not simply handing off one of YOUR responsibilities to your subordinate.

[stargate barbie]

And in that situation, it might work. However, Carter could not and should not take the time to be apprasied of any little thing or even big thing happening in the battle. THat means that the 2IC has got to do the CO's job.
And as I said before, the CO is supposed to be the best at the tactics and stragies. They should be running hte battle, not tinkering with tech.

no the CO's job is to lead the team and to give orders where neccessary. the CO's job is to make sure that the mission objective is achieved, and that the standing orders of the mission are followed where possible.

THis is opinion. Others, myself included, see that scene very very differently.

no its not. its canon. its what actually transpired in the episode. landry said, "stay under the radar". carter reminded mitchell that they were "supposed to stay under the radar". mitchell disregarded this, and did not stay under the radar.

Sorry, but despite everyone saying 'just let it go' I won't. Ryan is NOT me and whatever you all think of me, he doesn't deserve to be discredited and dismissed.

i'm not saying he is. i'm saying that you have almost exactly the same opinions and reasoning. and i'm not discrediting or dismissing him. i've said, as have many others that we like ryans attitude thus far.

[Lightsabre]

Curious, where does it say a CO has to be the best at tactics and stragies? Incidently, just because she isn't 'on the line' so to speak, doesn't mean she is not being a CO. Once again you are ignoring something fundemental, they have radios in order to communicate with one another.

Or are we to completely ignore this fact?

YEs I forgot. Apparently the addition of a radio allows her to do the jobs of 2 people.
Wow, that's some radio.
She can communicate with her team, but she does NOT have the on-the-ground sense of hte situation. Her giving order in a battle based on hastily yelled reports heard through a radio is NOT the optimal, in my opinion.
It will cost lives.

[Deevil]

Delegation is not simply handing off one of YOUR responsibilities to your subordinate.

Actually, that is exactly what delegating is.

[stargate barbie]

Hence why I said for Cam, Sam and Daniel
THe battle did continue, but Sam wasn't runnign it, was she?
No, she completely ignored a battle SHE WAS IN CHARGE OF, to fix the rings.
That could have consequences. And she did not once use her radio to check the status of said battle.
The fact of other leaders is irrelevant. Delegation is not simply handing off one of YOUR responsibilities to your subordinate.

she would have been in charge of the mission. not just the battle.

[stargate barbie]

YEs I forgot. Apparently the addition of a radio allows her to do the jobs of 2 people.
Wow, that's some radio.
She can communicate with her team, but she does NOT have the on-the-ground sense of hte situation. Her giving order in a battle based on hastily yelled reports heard through a radio is NOT the optimal, in my opinion.
It will cost lives.

isn't this what happens in many real life battles in many real life wars. isn't this what happens when generals give orders in battle? high ranking generals don't fight on the front line, the sit in the base and issue orders. i know the situations are slightly different, but comparisons can be made.

[Lightsabre]

no the CO's job is to lead the team and to give orders where neccessary. the CO's job is to make sure that the mission objective is achieved, and that the standing orders of the mission are followed where possible.

I agree. However, having your CO also be a specialist a bad idea for just that reason. There was a point to Jack standing around in eps you know. He was the central point. All info went ot him and he could make the most informed decision. Carter could not do that, since she would have tech problems foremost in her mind. I'm sorry, but it's just not feasible.

no its not. its canon. its what actually transpired in the episode. landry said, "stay under the radar". carter reminded mitchell that they were "supposed to stay under the radar". mitchell disregarded this, and did not stay under the radar.

I'm not arguing this with you anymore. It's not cannon, it's interpretation.
There is nothing that says Mitchell's actions violated an order.

i'm not saying he is. i'm saying that you have almost exactly the same opinions and reasoning. and i'm not discrediting or dismissing him. i've said, as have many others that we like ryans attitude thus far.

Wow, you all like him more.
I'm sorry, but MG AND suse have both said they think I'm him and refuse to retract it.

[stargate barbie]

Wow.
I said that in no way is the argument tha BB only got a job on Stargate becase of gender bias proven.
And your extremely intelligent response is the Mitchell's leadership isn't either.
I'm not clinging to anything. Mitchell has proved himself a leader.

apparently not very well considering that most people on this thread/poll don't think he has, and have been able to state reasons and incidents as to why we think so.