Who should lead SG1?(Spoilers)

[Deevil]

Just to weigh in again on the arguement that Sam can't be a scientist and a leader/Co at the same time because if she had to fix something she couldn't be giving orders... Can I remind you the idea of a leader is someone who takes charge and deligates responsibility as required.

Sure, if she's inside and fixing something she can't be outside aswell, but she can send someone outside and have them follow her orders. A CO is only a CO because they have people under them, not because they are capable of being in 20 places at once.

[suse]

[QUOTE=RyantheGreat]

That's a matter of opinion

.

That's a matter of canon.

You're making assumptions here. As a matter of fact, to assume Cam reached Lt. Col at such a "young" age would suggest he's a remarkable talent. To be given SG1 with the support of both Gen.s Landry and O'Niell at such a young age, well, it's just as safe an assumption to assume he has some sort of field training as well.

You're making assumptions here also.

What's your point? Realism is a factor here now? Carter's rise in rank since the beginnings of her time on SG1, Captain, Major, Lt. Col, is nothing short of remarkable. Heck, the only person who has probably risen faster would be O'Niell. What makes me think Carter has more experience than Landry running the SGC? Well... she's been there the past nine years! He hasn't. Isn't that the same argument that's being made about Cam? Sam's been there, he hasn't?

Remarkable, yes. Impossible - like jumping 2!! ranks - no.

Umm, O'Neill was a Colonel for at least 10 years. No change in rank. Was he *Major* General-ed? Was that said? Bad idea if he was. One year as a Brig. Gen. is not enough for promotion.

No, making Sam General is not the same arguement. Doing paperwork/responsibilites as a Captain/Major/Lt. Colonel is not the same as paperwork/responibilities at a General's level. I can't see someone making General without seeing action. Yes, Sam was promoted quickly, but it was said it's not totally out of the realm of possibility.

Yes, Cam's seen action. Just not the type that I think is needed to lead the flagship (or any other) SG team.

Sam has offworld experience. And a history of leadership. Onworld, offworld, in battle onworld - as a pilot (like Cam, though not as long) and offworld as 2IC - a leadership role if not the readership role - for 7 years and as SG-1 leader for a year.

Cam had leadership onworld as a pilot.

Hmm. Who would I pick to lead.

Irrelevant to a military standpoint. Again, leadership is more than experience. (Which is why Landry is general despite relatively little offworld experience)

Try no offworld experience. And it's not needed in an administrative position. It is needed in a team leader position.

Sam = yes
Cam = no



:

hammond:



Say someone higher up *did* order Carter back to SG1. Then those same orders either make her Cam's superior, or subordinate. Since it hasn't been directly stated that it's the first (or that she was ordered for that matter) we have to revert to original canon and assume it's the latter. But to say she was ordered back to SG1, it can be assumed (Gods, I hate that word) that she was ordered to Area 51. This suggests a remarkable lack of confidence in her leadership skills by whoever is ordering. She can lead when Teal'c and Daniel are there, people who know their stuff, but not a brand new team? That's just insulting...

No, we don't have to assume that.

We have what we have-a badly flummoxed storyline open to waaaayyyyy too muchh interpretation. Many people are not interpreting it in the hoped for (by TPTB) way.

Bad writing doesn't stop Voyager from having lasted seven seasons on one of the major networks. For that matter, in Star Trek canon, Janeway's an Admiral now, promoted before Picard... wow... those crazy sexist Star Trek writers...

A major network!!! Right. The only reason it lasted that long was because it was the networks flagship show. Giving up on it would have been admitting defeat. They finally had to with Enterprise.

Picard was offered Admiralty. He didn't take it, several times. (Apparently you can do that in the ST universe. Same as Riker not accepting a new ship.) Janeway took it. She was ready to stay at home in the Alpha quadrant.

[QUOTE]

Or being an exwife gave them a history together... it didn't have to be sexual. They could have served together, but that had been done.

And heaven knows Sheridan had only served with one woman in his career so he had to bring his ex into the mix.

Exwife was just more... dramatic.

::gag:: Not you, the idea...

Not *a* President. *The* President of the twelve colonies. The most powerful person in the fleet. (well...can't say more for spoilers sake) Not the lead? No, I suppose not. Eddie Almos gets top billing, but he doesn't get as much air time. Heck, who gets the most airtime and higher billing on BSG? Apollo? Nope... Katie Sackoff. Starbuck. Ron Moore, what sexist!

But neither woman gets top billing, right? And it makes sense politics take a back seat to the Space Battle Of The Week(tm). And Starbucks a pilot. I like Ron Moore. Kudos to him.

I'd love an episode where Weir went out with the team... but she's the civilian leader of the entire city. Probably a more important job. Teyla goes out with the team, but I guess she's not really a woman? Well, not an Earth Woman, anyway.

Exactly. Not an Earth woman. Different things are expected. And she still doesn't lead the team, does she??

They could have written it a thousand different ways. They chose this one and now we have to deal with it. Medical leave wouldn't have worked without explaining what the problem was. But again, I agree, if Carter was intended to be the leader, she would have gone on leave, not left SG1 entirely.

A one line reference ("She broke a leg"; "She was in a car accident") woulda done it. So would TDY. They had more than enough time to do that when they were promoting that new video phone they were giving away.

And why was she not intended to be leader? That is the million dollar question. I don't expect you to know that answer. Or to get one from TPTB, though it would be nice.

Again, you're imposing real world injustices (and there are many, many, many) on Stargate. You have valid reason to be concerned, but I think you are mistaken. There are many examples of lead females in SF. Buffy, Xena, Dark Angel. Three well known ones. Less known would be probably Raven, Birds of Prey (not related) and more...

I don't think I'm mistaken.

Buffy and Xena were not SF. They were Fantasy. Raven lasted not even a season? Dark Angel slightly longer.

Please don't bring Xena into this. That show was so campy. Just what Stargate is becoming. The skirmishes are no longer even realistic. Much nmore Farscapeish. I liked farscape. But it had an OOT feel. Stagate didn't.

I'll repeat what I said other. Science Fiction has a strong history in equality among sexes and races. The SciFi Channel has a strong history of the same. The Stargate series also has a strong history of the same. The argument about advertisers forcing a man into the lead is rediculous.

Maybe when the women aren't from Earth. The SFC also has a history of trite, embarassing horror shows they like to call SF. The Swarm. Any dinosaur flick.

The Stargate series does have a strong history of strong women. Sam and Janet. The end. Just not in charge. Remember Anise/Freya? They tried to go the 7 of 9 route and it didn't work. What makes them think dominatrix and potty humor/sexual (not even)innuedo will now?

SG1 had eight years established fan base, not to mention the fact that the advertisers deal with Scifi Channel, and not the producers or writers of the show.

Yep they have.. The advertisers deal with SFC, yes. The shows owners -Sony- deals with SciFi. If they want SciFi to keep the show they will give SF what they want. And if the advertisers want a certain demographic SciFi will give it to them. Perhaps over the showrunners objections. Happened on B5. It can happen here.

Yeah, he's willing to learn from the experience of those around him. Such ill concieved notions!! It's a good thing Jack never listened to Teal'c or Daniel or Sam...

Jack didn't need to learn basic tactical stuff from Daniel, or Sam. Info, yes. Tactics, no. And he took Teal'cs knowledge seriously. Didn't always listen, but it was his unconventional tactics that kept them alive -usually. Cam's ... unconventional - (foolhardy)--... thinking got them all captured and the rest of SG-1 got Cam out of trouble. Hardly the same.

[suse]

Just to weigh in again on the arguement that Sam can't be a scientist and a leader/Co at the same time because if she had to fix something she couldn't be giving orders... Can I remind you the idea of a leader is someone who takes charge and deligates responsibility as required.

Sure, if she's inside and fixing something she can't be outside aswell, but she can send someone outside and have them follow her orders. A CO is only a CO because they have people under them, not because they are capable of being in 20 places at once.

Thanks Deevil. I was trying to come up with a way of saying just that.

Suse

[suse]

LOL... look for the answer in the S9 DVD extras.... a gimmick to make sure we're all going to buy it... (like they needed to do that to get us to buy it.. )

Actually, the gimmick they need to use to get me to buy - and yes, they need one - would be S1-S8 or S1-S9 bloopers. Otherwise they stay on the store shelf. The commentaries and behind the scenes stuff for S8 were badly done compared to previous boxed sets. No reqason to think they would do better with S9, especially as they worship at the feet of Mitchell and Vala.

Suse

[suse]

Anyway... is it cannon with two "n"'s? I've been spelling it wrong all this time...

Cannon: pural usually cannon a : a large heavy gun usually mounted on a carriage b : a heavy-caliber automatic aircraft gun firing explosive shells

Canon: 1 a : a regulation or dogma decreed by a church council b : a provision of canon law
2 [Middle English, prob. from Old French, from Late Latin, from Latin, model] : the most solemn and unvarying part of the Mass including the consecration of the bread and wine
3 [Middle English, from Late Latin, from Latin, standard] a : an authoritative list of books accepted as Holy Scripture b : the authentic works of a writer c : a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works *the canon of great literature* <snip>

Suse

[binkpmmc]

Actually, the gimmick they need to use to get me to buy - and yes, they need one - would be S1-S8 or S1-S9 bloopers. Otherwise they stay on the store shelf. The commentaries and behind the scenes stuff for S8 were badly done compared to previous boxed sets. No reqason to think they would do better with S9, especially as they worship at the feet of Mitchell and Vala.

Suse

I agree - I wouldn't buy the season 9 DVDs if THEY paid me. I didn't buy 7 or 8 either - bad writing, bad direction, bad decisions and not worth my $$$. They can have their coveted demo - the ones with little to no disposable income to spend on things like DVDs and cons and I'll just spend my $$$ on quality like all 11 seasons of M*A*S*H.

[suse]

I guess for me it comes down to the fact that she was written as the leader and due to whatever reasons TPTB cared to use, Mitchell was written in to fill that role. Initially, or at least from the mouths of Michael Shanks and Chris Judge, he was only going to be leading while Sam was away (i.e., until Amanda returned from maternity leave). Somewhere along the line, someone decided to make Mitchell the permanent SG-1 team leader of record.

And this is where I have issues.

Not only because of Sam and the fact that I think it's an insult to the character and to the established canon that she was the team leader and now is effectively serving in a position she held 2 years and 2 commands ago...but also because the qualifications of this new leader are so tragically lacking. It's insulting to me that he should be called the leader of this team.

They could have chosen to write him as a confident, competent commanding officer. Maybe someone who was the polar opposite of Jack who lacked a sense of humor and was all by the book (which in itself would have made him hilariously funny). They instead opted to write him with a frat boy kinda sense of humor who doesn't seem to fully understand the consequences of his actions nor does he seem to reap the payment for said actions. Now had he maintained the subordinate status that he was originally intended to be, it might have made more sense. He intended to serve under Carter and learn from the best (Sam/Daniel/Teal'c). As a subordinate, we would have seen Sam deal with something she wouldn't have been accustomed to with regard to leadership.

But now, we have a bonafide mess...and it's negatively affecting the team and the show.

My hope is that there will be some sort of clarification next year...but at this rate, perhaps it's too late for that. I don't know.

But something needs to happen, one way or the other.

I read somewhere that it will be addressed. I can't remember where though. Was somewhere official, JMs last blog???

Uber, this is exactly why I don't accept Mitchell as lead. I agree with you 1000%.

Suse

[suse]

[QUOTE=binkpmmc]I agree - I wouldn't buy the season 9 DVDs if THEY paid me. I didn't buy 7 or 8 either - bad writing, bad direction, bad decisions and not worth my $$$. They can have their coveted demo - the ones with little to no disposable income to spend on things like DVDs and cons and I'll just spend my $$$ on quality like all 11 seasons of M*A*S*H.[/QUOTE]

I'm waiting for Get Smart.

Suse

[suse]

I was thinking back over season eight, and I really don't remember Sam leading that many expeditions. Perhaps because so many of the eps didn't deal with the team actually going anywhere. The only clear recollection I have of her leading was in season six's Nightwalkers and season eight's It's Good to Be King (but then Jack took over that one) and parts of Reckoning. Of course, that's just off the top of my head. Maybe she's just not that comfortable with leading, although perfectly competent at it.


Edit: Oh, there was some question earlier--it is canon, with one 'N' (sorry--Miss know-it-all showing off, again).

Due to budgetary constraints they did many bottle eps. Site shoots cost too much. Hence no Carter leading on screen. She led during the plant episode, but SG-1 was hardly in it. Other missions were treated the same. When they are at SGC she is not lead, the General is. Even Jack followed orders at the SGC.

Money was cut - hence no Hammond - and Rick was still getting paid for 2 postions that were essentially part-time.

Season 9: No more Rick, lots of money freed. Amanda getting paid for 15 eps not 20, more money freed. As crass as talking about monet is, I'm sure BB and CB together cost way less than RDA as a star and an executive producer.

All the sudden, more off world mkssions. Lead <snort>Male Action Hero(tm) included.

Suse

[suse]

Considering he had to fill RDA's shoes on the team, be it as leader or just sarcasism, there's no possible way they could have written Cam's role as straight and narrow. How many viewers would that have turned off? Simply put... the team dynamic on both SG1 and Atlantis it thus... (team leader-usually sarastic)Jack/Shep (scientist) Carter/McKay (warrior) Teal'c/Ronon(anthropologist/local expert) Daniel/Teyla.

I never wanted anyone to try to fill RDAs shoes. I love O'Neill, but I was ready for him to leave. RDA staying was tying the storyline in knots. And he wanted to leave. Not an issue. I accept things change. I was looking forward to the change. But not this...travesty.

Shoulda coulda woulda. Oh well.

Suse

[Lord Shiva]

(blinks in surprise) I should go back and reread all these threads...

There's an argument about sexism in this??? Because Carter's a woman and Mitchell's a man?

Oy...

Personally, I feel women make themselves look bad by whining and complaining about sexism all the time, especially in something like a Sci Fi TV show. Especially when Carter is constantly shown to be a very strong woman who also happens to be the smartest person in the SGC.

Yes, very sexist.

[suse]

Personally, I feel women make themselves look bad by whining and complaining about sexism all the time, especially in something like a Sci Fi TV show. Especially when Carter is constantly shown to be a very strong woman who also happens to be the smartest person in the SGC.

Yes, very sexist.

That's because it's PC to have it that way. But when the rubber hits the road who gets top billing?

Arguably, while Sam lead in S8 there was little on-screen leading. Most leading on-screen was Jack as General at SGC. As soon as that Male Action Hero(tm) (still trading on MacGuyver (sp) and S1-S9 Stargate) was gone they hired another Male Action Hero(tm) to get top billing and lead.

I wish I could stop whining about it too. Maybe one day. But not this one when it is patently obvious otherwise.


Suse

[suse]

Suddenly, there's a new threat. Her scientific talents are now more needed on SG1. She'd rather be at Area 51 (as evidenced by not being in a few episodes), but she steps up to do the right thing.

Again, if she wanted to be leader of SG1, she could have stayed.

She was ordered back. At least for the Beachhead mission. Doesn't mean she wanted to go back permanently under a SGC greenhorn however friendly they are.

This is the sticking point for all of us. It has never been said. Perceptions...

Suse

[Lord Shiva]

Ah, now I think this is wrong. It presumes that SG-1 viewers are divided into Sam-lovers & Cam-haters, Cam-lovers and Sam-haters etc. etc. That is just nonsense. I voted for Sam for "should lead" in the above poll because a) she has been shown to be good at it, b) she has lots of relevant (gate) experience, c) Cam doesn't have relevant (gate) experience - and still won't have had much come the start of season 10 - , and d) in the later eps of season 9 he was shown to be very unsuitable to lead.

The main problem with this argument is while it is definetely a valid argument, the facts are that story-wise, SG-1 was no more. After season 8 ended, SG-1 split apart and there was no SG-1. So there would be no point in Carter leading it. She decided that she wanted to go and do scientist stuff somewhere, and the fact that the actress was pregnant has nothing to do with the actual story. Real live vs. fiction, totally different creatures.

The SGC wanted a new SG-1 to take place of the fragmented team (Daniel going to Atlantis, Teal'c with the Free Jaffa Nation, Carter doing Sciencestuff, and O'Neill moving up), and there was not only a willing candidate, but a man O'Neill promised leadership of SG-1 too. Given that SG-1 was no more, and the SGC had the need of a new team, O'Neill gave it to a very capable Camron Mitchell.

Just because Mitchell wanted to bring together all the former SG-1 members also should not immediately make Carter the defacto leader, because again, storywise she was elsewhere doing something else.

Mitchell, whether through luck or good fortune was able to bring back SG-1. But it is his team, not Carters.

[DEM]

Personally, I feel women make themselves look bad by whining and complaining about sexism all the time,

What an intro.

especially in something like a Sci Fi TV show.

Television is a cultural product. Western culture is sexist. Do us all a favour and don't try to debate that; you'll just make yourself look even more regressive. It is not absurd to claim that a SciFi teevee program could be sexist.

Especially when Carter is constantly shown to be a very strong woman who also happens to be the smartest person in the SGC.

O that life were so simplistic.