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    Ori warship curiosity

    Just a passing thought I had.

    Essentially Ori technology is based off their ascended knowledge. If so, I always figured they would be able to build things that go beyond the comprehension of us lowers. Possibly even the Ancients at their peak. With the feats of the Ori warships and how they were beaten by Asgard weaponry and routed by Ancient drones it made me wonder if this was really the best they could possibly do?

    It seems to me that the Ori didn't really bother building the best possible ship or was really only doing enough to beat whatever the Milkyway galaxy could throw at it.

    #2
    Just off the top of my head, but I imagine a massive amount of arrogance on the part of the Ori may have had a good deal to do with it.
    "Welcome to the Good place"

    Let's save the planet, it's the only one we have.

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      #3
      Originally posted by Grayvorn View Post
      Just off the top of my head, but I imagine a massive amount of arrogance on the part of the Ori may have had a good deal to do with it.
      I'd counter that they should've known Ancient technology was in the milky way galaxy. Though we're not sure how effective the Ancient drones were as they were only mentioned in 'Ripple Effect' as they were more or less scared off by it.

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        #4
        Just because the Ori have ascended knowledge, doesn't mean that they can produce machinery that would overwhelm machinery built by physical beings. There has to be a limit to what technologies are capable of. If the Ancients, who evolved so much mentally that they were capable of ascending if they put the effort in, created something at or near the peak of what's scientifically possible, all the Ori could hope do is match that technology or create something that is marginally better.

        Take ZPMs as an example. It's very much possible that they're the best possible power source anyone can produce. We don't know for sure that Project Arcturus was a dead end, and we don't know exactly what powers Ori ships, but let's assume that the former is scientifically impossible. In that event, all the Ori could hope to is match ZPM technology. That big glowing ball could theoretically be equivalent to more than one ZPM working in concert, but it doesn't appear that it produces unlimited power as Project Arcturus attempted to do.

        Additionally, the amount of energy that can be channeled to an Ori ship's systems is going to be limited by the conduits they use to transfer energy around the ship, so even if they did have unlimited energy, it doesn't mean they can get more energy to weapons, shields, etc., than Atlantis, for example. It just means their power source can't be drained and thus need to be replaced during a battle. Atlantis uses sizable tubes to transfer ZPM energy to its systems. Unless there's a way to channel energy through such tubes at faster speeds, the only way to do better is to create bigger tubes. However, that would likely necessitate the creation of bigger ships.

        Likewise, just because the Ancients weren't ascended when they made other technologies (shield generators, weapons, etc.), it doesn't mean they were not smart enough to figure out how to develop the most efficient/powerful possible versions of those things. However, for any area they came up short in, it's not unreasonable that the gap between where they were at and what was possible would be anywhere near as noticeable as the gap between the Ancients/Ori and the Goa'uld, humans, or others who have only been creating spaceship technology for a few thousand years or so at best.
        Last edited by Xaeden; 11 April 2021, 06:10 AM.

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          #5
          I always thought the Ori warships were "dumbed down" a bit so that humans could build and fly them. Warships using ascended-level technology may have required entire industries not available to the Original followers before they could build ships based on more advanced designs, but all the Ori had were the humans and resources available to them in our plane of existence to build the warships.

          Or, maybe they didn't want to let too much knowledge/technology flow to the unascended.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Xaeden View Post
            Just because the Ori have ascended knowledge, doesn't mean that they can produce machinery that would overwhelm machinery built by physical beings. There has to be a limit to what technologies are capable of. If the Ancients, who evolved so much mentally that they were capable of ascending if they put the effort in, created something at or near the peak of what's scientifically possible, all the Ori could hope do is match that technology or create something that is marginally better.
            That is under the assumption that Ancient technology is the pique of what is achievable on the lower plains. More so in what we know about their history, they didn't really bother developing their technology any further as they saw ascension as the conclusion to it all. However I know this is me stretching as no one can really know the answer to this.

            But concerning their ships, it seemed obvious to have different ship classes to fulfill specialized roles. Such as frigates, corvette, destroyers, dreadnoughts, and etc. Although not exactly shown and probably implied, the Ancients had other ship types besides Aurora and puddle jumper classes with the ship the Asurans had in the episode 'The Mortal Coil' that was guarding the gate. Even the Goa'uld had variation to cover their needs. While the Ori had on screen only two ship types. Their motherships and landing party ships.

            As powerful as their beam and pulse weapons were, I'm more surprised they didn't have their own drones on them. The Ancients created the ultimate missile technology. Kind of figured the Ori would emulate it. Not unless it was just out of spite that they didn't want to use it.

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              #7
              Originally posted by tpete View Post
              I always thought the Ori warships were "dumbed down" a bit so that humans could build and fly them. Warships using ascended-level technology may have required entire industries not available to the Original followers before they could build ships based on more advanced designs, but all the Ori had were the humans and resources available to them in our plane of existence to build the warships.

              Or, maybe they didn't want to let too much knowledge/technology flow to the unascended.
              This is what I originally thought too similar to how the Goa'uld treated their followers. But in the end I'm not really sure what the actual case is.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Rohan View Post

                That is under the assumption that Ancient technology is the pique of what is achievable on the lower plains.
                Indeed.
                I proposed that as a possible answer to your question, and I used ZPMs as an example of something that appears to be the peak of what one can make in that area. However, I then went on to say that while they haven't built all technologies to their fullest potential, the difference between what is possible and what they achieved may not be so large that you would notice a tremendous difference in strength between their ships.

                The Ancients were around for 50+ million years and many of their brains were so advanced that they were capable of ascending if they applied themselves. It's not unreasonable that they would find or get close to the peak of what was scientifically possible with some technologies.

                More so in what we know about their history, they didn't really bother developing their technology any further as they saw ascension as the conclusion to it all. However I know this is me stretching as no one can really know the answer to this.


                I disagree that we know that to be the case. The Ancients continued to pursue technological advances in the Pegasus galaxy, and when they fled to Earth it was not to give them the time they needed to ascend. Rather, it was in the hope that they would find their ancestor's technology and use it to to rebuild. It was only when they discovered they'd have to do so basically from scratch that they gave up and tried to ascend or pursued other courses of action.

                In "Before I Sleep" Janus said they were protecting the city in the hopes that their kind would one day return. Then there's this from "The Pegasus Project:"

                MORGAN LE FAY
                For a time in your history, yes, I was his rival. But we're talking about many thousands of years, Doctor Jackson, as you know. Things change. When we first abandoned Atlantis all those millennia ago, the Earth was so harsh, its people so primitive by comparison, there was no hope of living among them as Lantians or rebuilding our society. So, instead we spread out to many lands, some of us planting a few small seeds of civilization among the first tribes of man. Others making their way to the Stargate at your southern pole. Still others choosing to live the remainder of our lives in seclusion and meditation. Merlin and I both chose the latter path.




                As powerful as their beam and pulse weapons were, I'm more surprised they didn't have their own drones on them. The Ancients created the ultimate missile technology. Kind of figured the Ori would emulate it. Not unless it was just out of spite that they didn't want to use it.


                What they ended up creating was likely influenced by their personalities and imagination. A big terrifying death ray that can take out nearly anything in its path fits their vibe. Drones have a bit more nuance to them. If they had a need for them, I'm sure they have enough knowledge about how things work to replicate the technology now that they know it exists, but I wouldn't assume they'd think to create something like it on their own.
                Last edited by Xaeden; 15 April 2021, 03:46 AM.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Xaeden View Post

                  The Ancients were around for 50+ million years and many of their brains were so advanced that they were capable of ascending if they applied themselves. It's not unreasonable that they would find or get close to the peak of what was scientifically possible with some technologies.
                  It's debatable as we will never really know. However, a case can be made by comparing them to the advancements of other races such as their closest rival and ally the Asgard who showed the ability to not only be as advanced but perhaps even surpassed them in certain fields such as weapons, shields, teleportation, and FTL technology.

                  Originally posted by Xaeden View Post

                  I disagree that we know that to be the case. The Ancients continued to pursue technological advances in the Pegasus galaxy, and when they fled to Earth it was not to give them the time they needed to ascend. Rather, it was in the hope that they would find their ancestor's technology and use it to to rebuild. It was only when they discovered they'd have to do so basically from scratch that they gave up and tried to ascend or pursued other courses of action.

                  In "Before I Sleep" Janus said they were protecting the city in the hopes that their kind would one day return. Then there's this from "The Pegasus Project:"[/SIZE]

                  MORGAN LE FAY
                  For a time in your history, yes, I was his rival. But we're talking about many thousands of years, Doctor Jackson, as you know. Things change. When we first abandoned Atlantis all those millennia ago, the Earth was so harsh, its people so primitive by comparison, there was no hope of living among them as Lantians or rebuilding our society. So, instead we spread out to many lands, some of us planting a few small seeds of civilization among the first tribes of man. Others making their way to the Stargate at your southern pole. Still others choosing to live the remainder of our lives in seclusion and meditation. Merlin and I both chose the latter path.
                  I don't think that was the case as they specifically fled the Pegasus galaxy since they considered it a lost cause beyond salvaging it from the Wraith. Thus their last act was in 'hope' that Atlantis was still standing as their descendants would someday return to reclaim it. Everything after that was their civilization choosing different paths. One group stayed on Earth to help cultivate it. Another chose seclusion in order to ascend. Then there was the final group that left Earth to some unknown place.

                  But now that you mentioned it, wouldn't that imply a very remote possibility that there might be a Ancient civilization still out there that chose the third option and left Earth that could still be thriving now?




                  Originally posted by Xaeden View Post

                  What they ended up creating was likely influenced by their personalities and imagination. A big terrifying death ray that can take out nearly anything in its path fits their vibe. Drones have a bit more nuance to them. If they had a need for them, I'm sure they have enough knowledge about how things work to replicate the technology now that they know it exists, but I wouldn't assume they'd think to create something like it on their own.
                  Fair enough point.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Rohan View Post

                    It's debatable as we will never really know. However, a case can be made by comparing them to the advancements of other races such as their closest rival and ally the Asgard who showed the ability to not only be as advanced but perhaps even surpassed them in certain fields such as weapons, shields, teleportation, and FTL technology.
                    The Asgard had better teleportation technologies, but I wouldn't say they surpassed the Ancients elsewhere. The idea that they could almost instantly travel between galaxies appears to have been retconned away, their shields have never been depicted as stronger than Ancient shields, and while they did eventually create weapons that could breach Ori shields, so did the Ancients. We also don't know if those beam weapons could have gotten through Ori shields had they been powered by Asgard built power sources instead of a ZPM.

                    Thor once said that they had barely scratched the surface of the Ancient database, which indicated that they think of themselves as technologically behind the Ancients (they were trying to catch up by learning from the Ancients). Their superior teleportation technology is likely a matter of need. To compensate for their extremely fragile bodies, they may have devoted far more time and resources into trying to construct versatile beaming tech than a race like the Ancients would have.

                    Again, I'm not arguing that the Ancients had the best of everything or that it's impossible for corporeal races to best them in certain areas. My point is simply that their technology is generally so advanced that someone capable of developing the best possible version of what is scientifically possible may not be so superior that Ancient shields would be easily overcome and their weapons wouldn't do any damage to enemy shields as was the case when Goa'uld ship technology tried to combat Ori ship tech.

                    I don't think that was the case as they specifically fled the Pegasus galaxy since they considered it a lost cause beyond salvaging it from the Wraith. Thus their last act was in 'hope' that Atlantis was still standing as their descendants would someday return to reclaim it. Everything after that was their civilization choosing different paths. One group stayed on Earth to help cultivate it. Another chose seclusion in order to ascend. Then there was the final group that left Earth to some unknown place.
                    How is that different than what I said? They spent years trying to hold out against the Wraith's siege of Atlantis before fleeing to Earth and we know from season 2's "Aurora" that they were hoping to find a way to counter the Wraith even then. When nothing came of it and it was clear they had no other options since their kill all schemes were getting them nowhere, they couldn't build more ships to counter the Wraith, and they may also have been unable to replace ZPMs, they left for the Milky Way where they hoped to rebuild until such a time where their descendants were powerful enough to return. As they instead found very little of their Milky Way civilization remaining, they splintered into two groups who gave up and one group who went off to parts unknown (Janus is the only member of that group we know anything about).


                    But now that you mentioned it, wouldn't that imply a very remote possibility that there might be a Ancient civilization still out there that chose the third option and left Earth that could still be thriving now?
                    Very much so, yes. Also note that Thor once said that the Ancients left this part of the galaxy a long time ago. It used to be believed that he was referring to their flight to the Pegasus galaxy, but the Pegasus Asgard said that Asgard civilization was 100,000 years old. That would mean the Alliance of Four Great Races either involved Pegasus Ancients traveling to the Milky Way to meet the other races 10,000 to 100,000 years ago or the group of Ancients who evacuated from Atlantis and then left through the gate were the ones who participated in the alliance. The former seems unlikely since the Pegasus Ancients seemed unaware they wouldn't find enough remnants of their ancestors' Milky Way civilization to rebuild. The latter, however, would make a lot of sense as those Ancients may have reached out to the other three and agreed to share knowledge because they were looking for a way to start over.

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                      #11
                      Originally posted by Xaeden View Post

                      The Asgard had better teleportation technologies, but I wouldn't say they surpassed the Ancients elsewhere. The idea that they could almost instantly travel between galaxies appears to have been retconned away, their shields have never been depicted as stronger than Ancient shields, and while they did eventually create weapons that could breach Ori shields, so did the Ancients. We also don't know if those beam weapons could have gotten through Ori shields had they been powered by Asgard built power sources instead of a ZPM.
                      I don't recall when their FTL technology was retconned. The only times they weren't perceived as fast is when they were towing around the Prometheus or being used by the Daedalus less advanced power source and power distribution.

                      But in the case of weapons, we've never seen Ancient drones used against Ori shields besides a mention in 'Ripple Effect'. However the Dakara super weapon is a unique case. But a better comparison can be made with how they destroyed Wraith hive ships being 'No Man's Land' and 'The Last Man'. Took quite a few drones to rip one apart while the plasma beam weapon needed three shots. More so, the plasma beam weapon could've been a lot of more powerful if equipped on a proper Asgard ship instead of the technologically inferior Daedalus class. Of course there was the satellite beam weapon that cut a ship in half in 'The Siege part 2'. But from what we know of it, it probably wasn't compatible with a ship.

                      Originally posted by Xaeden View Post

                      Again, I'm not arguing that the Ancients had the best of everything or that it's impossible for corporeal races to best them in certain areas. My point is simply that their technology is generally so advanced that someone capable of developing the best possible version of what is scientifically possible may not be so superior that Ancient shields would be easily overcome and their weapons wouldn't do any damage to enemy shields as was the case when Goa'uld ship technology tried to combat Ori ship tech.
                      Fair enough.


                      Originally posted by Xaeden View Post

                      How is that different than what I said? They spent years trying to hold out against the Wraith's siege of Atlantis before fleeing to Earth and we know from season 2's "Aurora" that they were hoping to find a way to counter the Wraith even then. When nothing came of it and it was clear they had no other options since their kill all schemes were getting them nowhere, they couldn't build more ships to counter the Wraith, and they may also have been unable to replace ZPMs, they left for the Milky Way where they hoped to rebuild until such a time where their descendants were powerful enough to return. As they instead found very little of their Milky Way civilization remaining, they splintered into two groups who gave up and one group who went off to parts unknown (Janus is the only member of that group we know anything about).

                      My bad. Misunderstood on my part.

                      Originally posted by Xaeden View Post

                      Very much so, yes. Also note that Thor once said that the Ancients left this part of the galaxy a long time ago. It used to be believed that he was referring to their flight to the Pegasus galaxy, but the Pegasus Asgard said that Asgard civilization was 100,000 years old. That would mean the Alliance of Four Great Races either involved Pegasus Ancients traveling to the Milky Way to meet the other races 10,000 to 100,000 years ago or the group of Ancients who evacuated from Atlantis and then left through the gate were the ones who participated in the alliance. The former seems unlikely since the Pegasus Ancients seemed unaware they wouldn't find enough remnants of their ancestors' Milky Way civilization to rebuild. The latter, however, would make a lot of sense as those Ancients may have reached out to the other three and agreed to share knowledge because they were looking for a way to start over.
                      Most likely the former then the later. But the history behind the alliance of the four great races still has a lot of holes in it. We only have a few glimpses of it based on the Asgard's history.

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