All That We Leave Behind

[Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble]

Wow was not expecting that, in case you can't tell I read the adult version.

Its not that I found it overly explicit just that many readers of this story who don't like romance will probably stop reading. I think that is a shame but true.

I will read the fanfiction.net version though to compare.

Oh yes and I think you made a mistake in the version on your website.

"I want to be able to look at each other,"

shouldn't it say "I want us to be able to look at each other" or "I want to be able to look at you".

[SF_and_Coffee]

In real-life dialogue, people will often omit words in a sort of verbal shorthand that still gets the message across. I occasionally have characters do that if it feels more natural than having them utter every detail. Tesni got her meaning across, didn't she? And she did it using the same wording I would have used in real life, in a similar situation.

Spoiler:

The romantic relationship between Tesni and Frank is necessary to make something else happen that is crucial to the plot. Without it, I'd have no way of introducing certain other characters and plot elements, and it also functions as an integral aspect of Frank's personal journey of healing and learning. If people can't deal with that, then this really isn't the kind of story they should be reading, and my guess is that most of those people have already stopped reading before this chapter. If they only wanted a short, action-packed story, ATWLB is not for them.

[WraithRichard]

They're still kinda just... bland.

Tesni stands out and I don't mean because she stands out in a crowd, but because of the amount of her actions and thoughts that gave her some of her defining personality. These others lack that.

Spoiler:

Also, calling the same guy by two different terms in the same paragraph repeatedly confused me. It's as if he was described as two vague people since both words were used so often and the sentences didn't match up in a way that made that obvious.

[Sealurk]

I'm getting confused about people.

Actually, to some extent this might be my one issue with the story, though it is minor enough that it hasn't affected my enjoyment or understanding of it to any significant degree.

Since I am generally reading the story in fairly rapid bursts followed by days or more of not reading anything, I occasionally come back to it and encounter a character and think 'which one are you?'. Most of the time, I can separate them or remember based on the context of their actions, location or something else associated with them, though in my mind's eye they often run together or else look the same.

This is not an issue with the main Pridanic 'cast' most of the time - Cadogan/Sabar, Tesni and Ris are very distinctive, but occasionally I confuse slightly more background characters in part because other than their names, there isn't too much to distinguish them (unless I'm just not paying enough attention), such as descriptions, quirks, tics etc.

Of course if they are mainly background characters that doesn't matter so much, but if any of them become more significant in terms of plot, it might pay to give them something that makes them a little more unique and memorable.

[SF_and_Coffee]

They're still kinda just... bland.

Tesni stands out and I don't mean because she stands out in a crowd, but because of the amount of her actions and thoughts that gave her some of her defining personality. These others lack that.

Well, of course she's done more. We met her several chapters ago, and she's figured heavily in most of what has happened since then. Nenniaw and Dynawd are just bit players right now who will be more fully detailed when they become more important or when Cromwell takes more notice of them. Think about real life: when you first meet someone, do you immediately know everything about them, or are their details revealed to you as you interact with them and get to know them? It's no different with characters in literature.

Spoiler:

We just met Cadogan too, and believe me, he will be detailed pretty closely as the story progresses, as will Sabar.

Spoiler:

Also, calling the same guy by two different terms in the same paragraph repeatedly confused me. It's as if he was described as two vague people since both words were used so often and the sentences didn't match up in a way that made that obvious.

Spoiler:

It should be obvious, just as referring to General Hammond in the same paragraph as both "Hammond" and "the general" should make it clear that both are the same person. One of the cardinal rules in writing is to avoid repetition of the same words over and over in the same paragraph or sentence, and that includes references to people. Repeating someone's name eight times in a paragraph makes for a boring, annoying paragraph. So, you use multiple ways of referring to them, whether by name, or by title, or perhaps by some characteristic such as "the tall man" or "the blonde woman". Cadogan has a title, "the cadlywydd", and that's why I use it, the same as I do "the colonel" for Cromwell or for Jack, or "the general" for Hammond... or even "the archaeologist" for Daniel.

[SF_and_Coffee]

Actually, to some extent this might be my one issue with the story, though it is minor enough that it hasn't affected my enjoyment or understanding of it to any significant degree.

Since I am generally reading the story in fairly rapid bursts followed by days or more of not reading anything, I occasionally come back to it and encounter a character and think 'which one are you?'. Most of the time, I can separate them or remember based on the context of their actions, location or something else associated with them, though in my mind's eye they often run together or else look the same.

This is not an issue with the main Pridanic 'cast' most of the time - Cadogan/Sabar, Tesni and Ris are very distinctive, but occasionally I confuse slightly more background characters in part because other than their names, there isn't too much to distinguish them (unless I'm just not paying enough attention), such as descriptions, quirks, tics etc.

Of course if they are mainly background characters that doesn't matter so much, but if any of them become more significant in terms of plot, it might pay to give them something that makes them a little more unique and memorable.

That's exactly what I plan to do. Remember, I'm writing this in fairly tight 3rd person POV, and although I do hop into other people's heads on occasion for the space of a scene or a chapter, most of what happens involving Cromwell directly is told from his POV. "Tight" means that when I am telling something from a particular character's POV, I can ONLY speak of what that character sees, hears, does, feels, experiences and knows. If he doesn't see something, then neither can the reader. It's actually a common mechanism for drawing the reader more fully into the story so that they identify with the characters. If Cromwell is confused, I don't want to merely tell the reader that; I want the reader to actually feel his confusion and identify with it. Having just landed on a strange planet after a trip he never meant to take has confused the hell out of this man, so if my readers are confused as well, that means I've done this correctly. As Cromwell's story progresses, his confusion will be resolved, and so will the readers'. And as he pays more attention to other characters, he will notice more things about them, which I will of course convey to the readers by writing from within Cromwell's POV. Make sense?

(And hey, at least I do head-hop, so you aren't restricted to always knowing only what Cromwell knows. By Chapter 9, I've already taken the reader on a trip through several people's heads, including Carter's, Jack's, Hammond's, Tesni's, and Cromwell's. By Chapter 16, that list is even longer.)

[Sealurk]

Fair enough. I wondered if something like that was the case.

[Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble]

In real-life dialogue, people will often omit words in a sort of verbal shorthand that still gets the message across. I occasionally have characters do that if it feels more natural than having them utter every detail. Tesni got her meaning across, didn't she? And she did it using the same wording I would have used in real life, in a similar situation.

To me it just doesn't feel right reading something that doesn't make sense. If this was a TV show I could understand but to me this is book.

So far you seem to be writing at a very high standard, IMHO it is a shame you are making a sentence that is grammatically incorrect.

[SF_and_Coffee]

People don't always speak in grammatically correct sentences. I know I don't always. These are everyday people. Cromwell says "gonna" a lot and uses colloquial speech. Tesni uses colloquial speech as well. If I wrote everything they say in 100% Queen's English, it wouldn't be right for the characters' voices. Cromwell is from Tennessee, and despite his intelligence and his education, he's not going to sound like an Oxford don. Tesni is from another planet entirely and speaking in another language (Cromwell is speaking it too, remember) so she should be expected to use the casual speech that would be appropriate to her people. High standards of grammatical correctness are important for narration, but dialogue should always be written with the voice of the character, not of the author.

And trust me, the confusion is deliberate. Have you ever read a mystery novel? I've read lots of them, and the best ones leave the reader guessing right along with whomever is doing the sleuthing. I only wish I were capable of the level of intellectual trickery it takes to write one of those. Although there definitely is a mystery involved in ATWLB, and it is up to Cromwell and Jack to solve it, from two ends.

[WraithRichard]

(Just got back form school).
You're probably right, as it's Cadogan and his title, just one I'm not used to reading, let alone can't pronounce. That might be the reason for the screw up.

If the people whom I didn't think were too important aren't important yet, good.. They'll be important later and then I can keep track of them... I hope.

The language didn't bother me much, but at times it did feel stiff. I just figured this is how they talk, not as a translation, but as how they'd talk in English if they could speak it. It is stiff, but since everyone's doing it, I figured it was a cultural thing.

[SF_and_Coffee]

(Just got back form school).
You're probably right, as it's Cadogan and his title, just one I'm not used to reading, let alone can't pronounce. That might be the reason for the screw up.

Don't worry about the pronunciation. I can barely pronounce some of the words myself, and I'm the one playing with them. Although if it helps, all instances of "c" in Welsh (and therefore in Pridanic) are pronounced as "k", and "dd" is "th" as in "the" crossed just slightly with "d". However, a single "d" in this case is still "d" but possibly just slightly softened, and both W and Y are vowels in Welsh. If you think "kahd-lew-ith" you'll be close enough. (And yes, cadlywydd is a real word in Welsh, roughly translatable as "marshal" or "general" but I gather it may be slightly archaic.)

If the people whom I didn't think were too important aren't important yet, good.. They'll be important later and then I can keep track of them... I hope.

I'm sure you will; don't worry.

The language didn't bother me much, but at times it did feel stiff. I just figured this is how they talk, not as a translation, but as how they'd talk in English if they could speak it. It is stiff, but since everyone's doing it, I figured it was a cultural thing.

Yes, exactly. Overall, throughout the story, my portrayal of the dialogue is intended to convey the way they would speak in English. I'm using a combination of slightly formal and archaic constructions with certain elements of vernacular and colloquialisms to make it sound just a little different from standard North American English, so as to subtly remind the reader that this is, after all, a different culture and language.

However, you're still in the early chapters, before Cromwell really has his head wrapped so completely around Pridanic that he is thinking in it. As such, he isn't thinking in terms of contractions or casual speech patterns, and so I reflect that in his use of their language and also in what I have the native speakers saying to him -- that is, I'm writing their speech the way Cromwell "hears" it at that point in the story. It's a device designed to illustrate that he is still learning Pridanic to some extent.

When you learn a new language or re-acquaint yourself with one you haven't spoken in years, you generally start out somewhat stiff and perhaps very careful and formal in your use of it (I'm remembering my own study of French, here, as a high school student). As you gain fluency and become comfortable in it, you tend to relax, and you learn the contractions and the little verbal shorthands that people use, and you begin to use them yourself. You may also start to speak in idiom, closer to the way a native speaker would. The stiffness and formality go away. In order to portray this, the early chapters have neither Cromwell nor the people he is speaking with using contractions or informal constructions. As he becomes more comfortable in the language -- this happens quite quickly, as Pridanic is really not much more than a different dialect of Welsh with some odd pronunciations, and he can speak one dialect of Welsh already, thanks to his grandmother -- he notices the standard contractions in use and begins to use them. I mention this specifically in one place, and it is intended as a cue to the reader that Cromwell is now going to be portrayed as having gained a fair bit of fluency in Pridanic. From that point forward, he both speaks and "hears" it with much less formality, and both he and the other characters will use contractions and informal constructions much more, making it much less stiff.

[WraithRichard]

When you learn a new language or re-acquaint yourself with one you haven't spoken in years, you generally start out somewhat stiff and perhaps very careful and formal in your use of it (I'm remembering my own study of French, here, as a high school student). As you gain fluency and become comfortable in it, you tend to relax, and you learn the contractions and the little verbal shorthands that people use, and you begin to use them yourself. You may also start to speak in idiom, closer to the way a native speaker would. The stiffness and formality go away. In order to portray this, the early chapters have neither Cromwell nor the people he is speaking with using contractions or informal constructions. As he becomes more comfortable in the language -- this happens quite quickly, as Pridanic is really not much more than a different dialect of Welsh with some odd pronunciations, and he can speak one dialect of Welsh already, thanks to his grandmother -- he notices the standard contractions in use and begins to use them. I mention this specifically in one place, and it is intended as a cue to the reader that Cromwell is now going to be portrayed as having gained a fair bit of fluency in Pridanic. From that point forward, he both speaks and "hears" it with much less formality, and both he and the other characters will use contractions and informal constructions much more, making it much less stiff.

Huh. I'd say culture dictates the definitions of 'formal' but I'm making an exception for Richard in my fic. Being nuts may also change things, so she probably wouldn't be the norm anyway. Indeed you start speaking similar to the locals. I'd say gender roles affect this, but only if they're definite when you learn the language. If they're subtler, barely expressed through language, or not there, you probably wouldn't pick up on it.

This reminds me now. I gotta go see if Richard said any contractions.

Spoiler:

(Holy crap. I'd hate to see an alien acclimate to English where I live.)

[SF_and_Coffee]

Well, contractions aren't "formal" for English in the purest sense, but a certain number do slip in.

As for gender roles, my intention is to portray the Pridani as having a very egalitarian society in which gender roles are very fluid, rather than strongly defined. This is actually going to be one of the things that Cromwell will find refreshing on the one hand as a fairly modern-minded man who has been exposed in the past to cultures that are very much not this way (remember, he's been stationed in places like the Middle East), and yet he will have to remind himself from time to time to go with the flow, as he is also just slightly the old-fashioned Southern gentleman, courtesy of his mother's family's influence on his upbringing. (It was her side of the family that was from Tennessee and because of that, he grew up there from age 8 to age 18, spending only summers with his paternal grandparents in Pennsylvania -- don't worry; this is all explained in a later chapter.)

But in any case, gender roles really don't have much bearing on the way a person speaks Pridanic, although it is a language wherein words themselves do have gender, just as they do in modern Welsh or in French.

[SF_and_Coffee]

Somewhat against my better judgment, as identifying the "cast of characters" of a work in a list can occasionally involve giving out minor spoilers, I've decided to place such a list here, for the use of those who may still find themselves having trouble keeping track of who's who in All That We Leave Behind. This is by no means an exhaustive list, and I will be adding to it as I go along, but it should be of some help. Thankfully, any spoilers are quite minor in this case, and practically nonexistent for anyone who has read as far as Ch. 9 on FF.net or Ch. 7 on either my own site or on Symbiotica. Also, I have safely hidden them behind additional spoilertags contained within the main spoilertagged section below, for those who wish to obtain some information without seeing too many spoilers.

"Dramatis Personae" for ATWLB, along with a partial glossary of terms in Pridanic and Goa'uld/Tok'ra:

Spoiler:

Colonel Frank Cromwell –- US Air Force Colonel, once-estranged best friend of Jack O’Neill. Fell through the SGC’s Stargate while setting a shaped charge to force the gate to disconnect from P3W-451, which was orbiting a black hole. Note: the following ceases to be a spoiler after Ch. 16 on FF.net, Ch. 12 on my site or Ch. 15 on Symbiotica:

Spoiler:

He becomes known among the Pridani as filwriad Neirin ab Owein trwy Lona (Neirin, son of Owein by Lona; filwriad is a military rank roughly equivalent to colonel in Pridanic usage. The pronunciation of his Pridanic name is NYE-rin ab OH-wine tru-ee LAW-nuh, and that of his rank is FIL-o-ree-adh). He also collects the affectionate nickname “Neirin Llyr” (pronounced “Hleer”) at some point during his sojourn among the Pridani, as they are wont to bestow nicknames on nearly everyone, often according to some physical characteristic or other personal trait. Neirin Llyr means “Neirin the Gray”.

Tesni ferch Dwynwen trwy Teilo (Tesni, daughter of Dwynwen by Teilo; pronounced. TEZ-nee fairkh DUE-in-wen tru-ee TIE-lo) — Pridanic woman whom Frank meets upon his arrival at the village of Llanavon (“Hlanavon”) on the planet designated P2A-870 by the SGC and called Tir Awyr (pron. CHEER ah-wehr; meaning “land in the sky”) by its own inhabitants. She is of somewhat noble birth, her late mother Dwynwen having served as chieftain of clan Branoc (in Pridanic society, gender does not determine social status or life roles). Tesni is an intelligence operative in the human rebellion against the Goa’uld lord Bel.

Idris trwy Dwynwen ap Teilo* (pron. EE-drees) — Tesni’s older brother, acting chieftain of clan Branoc. While technically himself a member of the local rebel militia, his primary responsibility is the administration of clan business and the well-being of the local villagers and the surrounding district. Husband of Anwen, father of Ris and Tegwyn.

Anwen ferch Meriel trwy Sywno (pron. AN-wen fairkh MARE-yel tru-ee SEE-yoo-no) — Wife of Idris, sister-in-law to Tesni, mother of Ris and Tegwyn.

Ris ab Idris trwy Anwen (pron. HREES, with the “s” pronounced the same as in “son”) — son of Idris and Anwen, older brother of Tegwyn, nephew of Tesni.

Tegwyn trwy Idris ferch Anwen (pron. TEG-wen) — daughter of Idris and Anwen, younger sister of Ris, niece of Tesni.

Nenniaw ap Hywel trwy Olwen (pron. NEH-nyow ap HOW-el tru-ee AHL-wen) – a team leader in the local unit of the rebel militia in Llanavon. He is a cousin to Tesni and Idris.

Dynawd ap Hywel trwy Olwen (pron. DEE-nawd) – Nenniaw’s brother. He is also a team leader in the local rebel militia unit.

Celyn ap Morfudd trwy Ceinwen (pron KEL-in ap MOR-vith tru-ee KYNE-wen) Another team leader in the local rebel militia unit.

Cadogan ap Cynan trwy Hafgan (pron. CAD-uh-gan ap KEY-nan tru-ee HAF-gan) — Uncle of Tesni and Idris, his military rank is cadlywydd, which translates as “battle-leader” and is roughly equivalent to “marshal” or “general”. (The name Cadogan itself comes from roots meaning “battle glory” or “battle honor” and is a clue that these people have a rather strong warrior tradition.) Cadogan the patriarch of clan Branoc and its chief-in-fact, although he ceded his clan duties to Idris years ago because he has other fish to fry. As cadlywydd (pron. KAHD-lew-ith or KAHD-lew-eedth), Cadogan is the high commander of the entirety of the human rebel military effort against the Goa’uld Bel. Cadogan is also the human host of the Tok’ra symbiote Sabar, who is the leader of the Tok’ra faction calling themselves the Tok’bel (Tok = “against”, so Tok’bel = “against Bel”) who have allied themselves with the Pridani and other Celtic rebels against Bel, who enslaved the humans two millennia ago. It is traditional among the rebels for whomever is Sabar’s host to serve as the high commander of the human portion of the rebellion.

Gerlad ap Bleddyn trwy Rhonwen (pron. GAIR-lad ap BLETH-in tru-ee RHON-wen) — Gerlad is a military officer who serves as Cadogan’s aide.

Sabar (pron. sa-BAR) — Tok’ra symbiote who leads a small band or faction of Tok’ra who have chosen to break with the High Council’s prohibition against overt, direct action against the Goa’uld in order to aid the Celtic rebels against Bel. Note: the following isn't really much of a spoiler at all, and completely ceases to be one after Ch. 19 on FF.net, Ch. 15 on my site and Ch. 18 on Symbiotica:

Spoiler:

This came about after Sabar blended with the rather strong-willed and persuasive Berwyn, whom he had encountered by chance while on a covert mission for the High Council. Berwyn was a teenager at the time, a Pridano who had been captured and made a court slave by Bel but not turned into a host, and he was given as a gift to Sabar, who was undercover as the emissary to Bel of another Goa’uld lord. Sabar took Berwyn with him when he went back to the Tok’ra, and set him free on a world inhabited by free humans from among whom the Tok’ra occasionally obtained hosts.

Not quite thirty years later, when Sabar’s host was dying of old age, he went in search of a new host and Berwyn approached him, offering himself as a host in gratitude for having been rescued from Bel and given his freedom. Once blended, Berwyn convinced Sabar to aid the Pridani and the other Celts. Sabar, already chafing somewhat under the Council’s restrictions, agreed and brought some similarly-minded friends along to help; thus were born the Tok’bel.

Berwyn was Sabar's first Pridanic host; Cadogan is his second.

* A note on Pridanic naming conventions: like many human cultures including the Welsh/Britannic tribes from whom they are descended, the Pridani use bynames rather than surnames as a means of identifying an individual. In Pridanic tradition, a person will have a given name, and also a byname which identifies them in relation to their parents. “Ferch” means “daughter of”, while “ab” and “ap” mean “son of”. (“Ab” is used before names beginning with a vowel, while “ap” is used before names beginning with a consonant.) “Trwy” means “by” or “through”. A Pridanic person’s byname generally refers to their same-sex parent first, and their opposite-sex parent second. The exception to this is when identifying someone of noble parentage, in which case the higher-ranking parent’s name comes first, or when a person introduces himself/herself to (or is introduced to) someone who has a stronger connection to one of their parents than to the other. Dwynwen, the mother of Tesni and Idris, was a clan chieftain, so while the normal practice of putting her name first in Tesni’s byname satisfies both the condition of gender and the condition of rank, this changes somewhat with Idris, who is known as “Idris, by Dwynwen son of Teilo” rather than “Idris, son of Teilo by Dwynwen” as would be the case if Dwynwen had not been a noblewoman, or if Teilo had been of equal or higher social rank to Dwynwen, which he was not. This renders Pridanic bynames somewhat fluid, as the way a person will identify himself or herself can change according to context.

Other terms of interest:

Pridano — a Pridanic male

Pridanaes — a Pridanic female

drws rhyng y byd — “door between worlds”; Pridanic term for the stargate

drws deialwr — “door dialer”; Pridanic term for a DHD

neb ankh – Goa’uld word for a sarcophagus (“possessor of life” – directly from Ancient Egyptian)

ta’el kesh – healing device

kesh – device (as in “kara kesh” the multipurpose hand device or ribbon device that shields, shoots, and tortures)

kara – many, multi-

ma’tok — Goa’uld/Tok’ra term for a staff weapon

gwydbwyll - a strategy game similar in nature to chess (Author's note: this is an actual historic game. I've played a version of it, and found it quite enjoyable.)

fach, bach — terms of endearment, basically meaning “small”. Fach is feminine, while bach is masculine. Calling someone “bach” is more or less equivalent to calling someone “son” the way that General Hammond does it. fakh, bakh

cariad (CAR-ee-adh) — “beloved”

fy (fee) — “my”

nghalon (NG-al-on) – “heart”

anwyll (AN-weel) — “loved one”

nith (neeth) — "niece"

nain, naina (nine, NINE-ah) — grandmother (remember, Cromwell generally thinks of his grandparents by their Welsh terms)

taid (tide) — grandfather

And I edited even after posting and editing here. The fully-tweaked version is on my site now, albeit without spoiler tagging.

(Yeah, yeah, I know... if Tolkien wrote SG-1 fanfic, right? )

[WraithRichard]

If Tolkein wrote SG fics, there's be a lot more singing and I wouldn't be reading it.