"Identity" (518) Pre-Airing Discussion/Speculation Thread

[Cautious Explorer]

I do get what you are saying what you arent getting is I disagree and you are treating your opinion as fact.

Mitchell, I know you disagree. I expect you to disagree. You always disagree.

I'm simply stating my opinion as is everyone else in this discussion, including you. I don't see a plethora of IMO or "I think" when you've posted your own responses. In fact you have stated that the way I viewed a scene is "wrong". Please spare me the accusations.

[Pandora's_Box]

» So? This is where we go into, for lack of a better explanation, "redeemable qualities" which Keller has very little of if any.

My point was that if it's viewed as a good quality for one character, why isn't it so for another? A noble deed is a noble deed regardless of who performs it and your personal views on the person, and should be taken into account when evaluating a character, not disregarded entirely.

» Also, for me, personally - she just gives a bad vibe as a character. But I suppose that shouldn't count, because that's just me being me and I can't really explain it, other than the fact other people get it (or don't get any vive) from her as well. Odd, isn't it?

I can't argue against personal preference nor do I want to. That was never my intention. I respect that people have different opinions and are attracted or repulsed by different personalities than myself.

I only find aggravating that some people will cite reasons and examples for not liking her with no basis in fact. Like the insistence on her incompetence as a doctor when it's been duly noted on the show that she is very competent and ingenious. Or when people misquote episodes, citing that it was another character that did something that was actually done by Keller, and then using that to fuel further resentment.

I have no problem with disagreement (in fact I love it), but when a disagreement is borne from misunderstanding I always think it's best to clear the air. And if you still hate Keller afterwards then that's fine too.

[bluealien]

From Adrift:



It was Keller's idea to use the nanites. She needed Rodney to reprogram them. Surely you don't expect Keller, a medical doctor, to also have McKay's skills with technology? That's hardly fair.



From Tabula Rasa:



Again, it was indeed Keller who found what they needed for the cure.

Regardless of whether or not she was expected to, as doctor, to find a cure, the fact that she still managed to do so, especially in her state, is still admirable.

Obligation due to one's duty does not negate some sort of admiration for the action. At least not in my opinion.

People do remarkable things everyday because it's part of their job descriptions. Should we show any less appreciation for them?

Rodney does his job all the time and everyone admires him for it - he's a genius, he's so brilliant. Keller has one or two off episodes wherein her actions had nothing whatsoever to do with her abilities as a doctor, and all of a sudden she's incompetent.



Oh, I will have to beg to differ here. It is impossible to fairly judge a character without taking into account all of said character's actions. Just like it's impossible and unfair to fairly judge any person based on one day's worth of actions, you can't do so for a character based on a single or even two episodes.

Well, you can, but then it's hardly worth arguing the point.

I think it shows plenty strength of character that Keller could barrel through what was probably a very frightening time and continue to do her job and help the people of Atlantis. Say what you will, but maintaining one's composure and keeping one's head in tough times is never easy and speaks volumes as to her character.



Ummm...helpful? Rational? Logical? Which of these is a problem exactly?



From The Last Man:



You mean as soon as the IOA cut off funding for her projects and basically relegated her to being a doctor on the base. That wasn't exactly her decision.



If you're going to compare, then at least compare apples with apples.

Carson was killed performing a high risk surgery while on the base (would you admire Keller for doing the same or would it just be part of her job description?).

Keller was stuck off-world being chased by murderous hordes of barbarians who'd probably eat her given the chance. Even Carson had issues with going off-world and complained to no end about it and he was never in a situation such as that.

They are trained as doctors. Doctors not soldiers. She was completely out of her element, frightened, and injured. In other words, she was human. No psyche eval can determine definitely what a person will do in such a situation. At most they can determine, based on a that person's personality, tendencies, and state of mind, what they are most likely to do.

I won't hold it against her forever because she didn't play out the entire episode like that. She grew and she learned what was necessary to survive. Overmore, she wasn't a pushover the whole time. She stood up to Teyla when thet found the injured man and insisted on treating him. Again, something that people find admirable in Carson (his insistence on obeying the oath he took as doctor) yet fail entirely in giving Keller the same credit. By the end of the episode, she wasn't the frozen-with-fear Keller anymore. She stood up to the Bola Kai leader under threat of torture and to the Wraith worshiper. That has to count for something.



The rest is just perception and I can't argue against that. If you don't think her tone of voice or her vocal inflections when saying something are just right in order to convince you of her believability as CMO, then there's nothing I can do to convince you otherwise. I would just say that sometimes (or a lot of the time) actions speak louder than words.

Exactly. You have summed up in your last paragraph exactly what I have been saying... she doesn't convince me at all that she is a CMO... the writers can give her reams of medical dialogue with ingenious cures and have her spouting medical jargon but if it's not convincing then it just someone reading lines. To me and I can't speak for anyone else she just doesn't convince me at all that she is a doctor let alone a CMO... she doesn't come across as a commanding or strong character but as I said before someone out of her depth... she should be made of stronger stuff if she is going to be sent into a war zone.. thats my point.. she souldnt be falling to pieces or giving wide eyed looks... for me its totally unrealistic sending someone into such a dangerous position when she is clearly not used to it... I can't believe that there arn't wonderful older doctors out there who would have been better choices.. someone who has worked in the field or who is of a stronger dispostion that a young experienced girl.
But the PTB wanted Jewel and they didn't think about realism or having someone more suited for the position.. they just wanted Jewl on the show and I guess the CMO was position was vacant. But having said that the writers to me are only making Kellers age and inexperience work against her because they keep highlighting her insecurities.. if they had showed her as a stronger charactert and we didnt get all the whinging and fear in Missing I probably could have accepted her a little better.. It doesnt necessarily mean that she has to be scared easily just because she is young..

And to all the long lists of wonderful things you have listed that Keller has done, again I hardly even remember any of them because as I said before Keller hasn't really held my attention so I guess I quickly forget her presence in an episode unlike Rodney or Sheppard or other characters that actually interest me.

[fumblesmcstupid]

"Doogie" KELLER!!

Wow when "DOOGIE HOUSER" was on I was 18 or 19 and I found the premise of a KID Doctor ludicrous!!

Now I am Forced to believe that a 26-30 year old woman has gained enough Experience and knowledge to be scouted upon by the IOA to be in charge of a secret Offworld Base!

Sheppard was a major in the Air Force when Atlantis started. He is Now a Lt. Col.

Keller was promoted after Carson died, Weir promoted Keller Even though Keller did not want the Job!

I can Easily believe in SPACE VAMPIRES in another Galaxy and a city that flies WAAAAAY before I will believe that she is a Doctor capable of being the CMO!

My brother Loves Scrubs, now the characters on that Dumb show are interns and are in their late 20's to early 30's and are still Brand New Doctors!

So........What in the UNIVERSE is the IOA thinking when they brought this girl with LOW SELF Esteem, No Confidence ( she says she didn't want to be in charge of Atlantis in First Strike)

So in Missing she says she skipped a few grades, Big effing deal!! so that means she has been a doctor for what 2 or 3 years!

FRANK BURNS (M*A*S*H*) also went to med school! and wow what a great Doctor he was!

Space Vampires yes..........Keller old enough to be CMO of Atlantis..... "IMO" NOTE look over there at the IN MY OPINION part cause this is how I think!!! make sure you see the ME, I , My part! NO! Nope, nada, Niet no way in Hell!

[PG15]

Settle down before you rupture an artery or something.

[Infinatus]

I was just about to say "It's just a TV show".

[PG15]

Yeah, seriously. I was gonna link to the Angry German Kid vid but decided against it, but still...geez.

[fumblesmcstupid]

Wow!! this is the second time you told me to settle down PG-15

and I really wish you'd stop!

I am stating my Opinion

and my views!

so I am asking you nicely with all do respect to stop!

[PG15]

I asked you settle down first.

Ever heard of calmly stating your views?

[fumblesmcstupid]

I have stated my views calmly! !

I guess you don't like my opinions! hey thats cool!

if my spacing is a problem, I have trouble Typing (Dyslexic words run together for me)

I read what I write and I rewrite over and edit so I really think that you just don't like what I have to say!

Like i said cool!

I just think that it is rude to tell me to calm down!

and I did ask you nicely to stop!!

I'm not ganna loose sleep cause you think I am forceful in my views!

if you don't like me or my thoughts then....oh well!

[PG15]

While I disagree with what you're saying, it's really the excessive use of exclaimation marks that raises my eyebrow.

Buuuuut...nevermind that. Kind of off topic now. Back to it then.

I suppose ignorance is bliss. I don't know anything about how a doctor gets his/her positions so I'm not really bothered by Keller's apparent too-young-ness. Actually, I don't pay attention to this stuff in scifi shows in general. Give me some good character stuff, some heartfelt moments, some humor, some interesting scifi plot, some cool CGI and I'm set!

[fumblesmcstupid]

exclamation abuse! then I am guilty as charge!!!!!

hee hee!

[Cautious Explorer]

Exactly. You have summed up in your last paragraph exactly what I have been saying... she doesn't convince me at all that she is a CMO... the writers can give her reams of medical dialogue with ingenious cures and have her spouting medical jargon but if it's not convincing then it just someone reading lines. To me and I can't speak for anyone else she just doesn't convince me at all that she is a doctor let alone a CMO... she doesn't come across as a commanding or strong character but as I said before someone out of her depth... she should be made of stronger stuff if she is going to be sent into a war zone.. thats my point.. she souldnt be falling to pieces or giving wide eyed looks... for me its totally unrealistic sending someone into such a dangerous position when she is clearly not used to it... I can't believe that there arn't wonderful older doctors out there who would have been better choices.. someone who has worked in the field or who is of a stronger dispostion that a young experienced girl.
But the PTB wanted Jewel and they didn't think about realism or having someone more suited for the position.. they just wanted Jewl on the show and I guess the CMO was position was vacant. But having said that the writers to me are only making Kellers age and inexperience work against her because they keep highlighting her insecurities.. if they had showed her as a stronger charactert and we didnt get all the whinging and fear in Missing I probably could have accepted her a little better.. It doesnt necessarily mean that she has to be scared easily just because she is young..

And to all the long lists of wonderful things you have listed that Keller has done, again I hardly even remember any of them because as I said before Keller hasn't really held my attention so I guess I quickly forget her presence in an episode unlike Rodney or Sheppard or other characters that actually interest me.

I guess I'd have more patience with her if she'd been drafted into the Stargate program or ended up stranded there somehow with no choice but to conquer her fears and make the best of it.

But: 1) I'm supposed to believe that this seemingly sheltered and unadventurous young girl actively lobbied to be sent to an extremely dangerous base in a strange galaxy? 2) We know that despite the dangers, Atlantis is considered to be a great opportunity, yet there were not more confident, more qualified, and better suited applicants to send? 3) The original expedition members may have naively imagined a peaceful scientific adventure, but Keller didn't arrive until all of the dangers were known. 4) Atlantis was briefly stranded when she first took on the job, but soon regained easy access to Earth, and easy access to a more seasoned replacement.

Maybe she's not intended to come across that way, but whenever Keller speaks with her quaking and quavering voice with all the hesitation, I can't help but think she's barely suppressing a panic attack. I feel sorry for her staff trying to rally behind such a "leader".

[Rac80]

*looks for the Identity discussion thread and finds....

























another keller-bashing thread populated with "the usual suspects" *


Identity may be an interesting ep, it all depends on how well it is acted.

[TameFarrar]

*looks for the Identity discussion thread and finds....
another keller-bashing thread populated with "the usual suspects" *


Identity may be an interesting ep, it all depends on how well it is acted.

Rac80 I am using you post as the jumping off point since you posted this and brought it to my attention.

I have reviewed the thread and since this is going to be a Keller Heavy episode from what I understand, there is going to be a lot of Keller speculation and discussion. Both positive and negative.

So before we start accusing folks of anything, Being to excited in expressing their opinions, being to positive or negative or anything please keep in mind that this is an OPEN discussion thread and all opinions are welcome and if someone wants to be excited in giving their opinion they can, if the person has a more negative opinion its valid.

Basically, as long as folks are within Forum Guidelines they are good. However, please do not hesitate to report any post you feel should be reviewed.