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    VR Future

    I didn't enjoy too much what they pull out at the end with the VR and stuff. I mean i don't even think they can do that, downloading personalities and writing original vrirtual enviroments is a little outside of our skill set. It was an SG-1 episode though with personalities transfers but no kind of conscience interaction and no VR, just stocking. And in 'Aurora' that vritual enviroment required a working body to cary a personality and as i remember with Aurora destroyed there were no life pods left so from where did they get one?

    Then very important is the moral-philosophical aspect of phisicaly disposing of a sencient and peacefull being with a superior moral code and civil behavior than 90% from the black suits from IOA (for example). IOA looks more and more like a nazist organisation and Bates could play any time a Hitler reincarnation (this is a compliment for his acting skills). For the first time in SG series, a being is disposed for what she is made of and not for her behaviour, if i remember corectly, never happened before. I don't like us to look like the ancients, who even not so ovious, they were suffering from a little god complex. When a member of Earth societiy creates a life, we should take responsability for it and treat it as such, especially when there is no clues to indicate that can be a treat to other citizens, by the contrary. There is no wonder that the replicators, even if not programmed as such, usualy became agressive, with this type of treatment. I don't even know if Dr Lee VR trick was sanctioned by the IOA or he gone unofficial.

    I just hope that in the future we will not fill that VR with all the personalities inhabiting bodies we don't feel confortable around and if we are so good with transfering personalities we should do it in a clone-organical body. I mean if we create repicator shells from scratches how hard will it be to make a clone. If those dumb life-suckers aliens can do it i think that we can too.

    Apart from this issue, i really enjoyed the episode like all Earth based episodes and i think it was the best from this category both SGA and SG-1.

    #2
    They could have gotten the pod from the orion.

    it was the only humane way to solve the problem. as for disposing something for what it is... Replicators. they werent evil the just did what they were supposed to.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by elbo View Post
      I didn't enjoy too much what they pull out at the end with the VR and stuff. I mean i don't even think they can do that, downloading personalities and writing original vrirtual enviroments is a little outside of our skill set. It was an SG-1 episode though with personalities transfers but no kind of conscience interaction and no VR, just stocking. And in 'Aurora' that vritual enviroment required a working body to cary a personality and as i remember with Aurora destroyed there were no life pods left so from where did they get one?
      Actually in "Gamekeeper" it was VR "Avatar" was different. It was modified but still VR. As to the Aurora no it was a VR program that took the users into the environment. And yeah it was destroyed so either A) we built one based off that tech, B) it's from the Orion.

      Then very important is the moral-philosophical aspect of phisicaly disposing of a sencient and peacefull being with a superior moral code and civil behavior than 90% from the black suits from IOA (for example). IOA looks more and more like a nazist organisation and Bates could play any time a Hitler reincarnation (this is a compliment for his acting skills).
      Whoa whoa whoa. That is a huge exaggeration. The simple fact that she is a sentient AI is a huge problem. It is way too big of a risk to keep her in the real world. I do not see the Nazi comparrison at all.
      For the first time in SG series, a being is disposed for what she is made of and not for her behaviour, if i remember corectly, never happened before. I don't like us to look like the ancients, who even not so ovious, they were suffering from a little god complex. When a member of Earth societiy creates a life, we should take responsability for it and treat it as such, especially when there is no clues to indicate that can be a treat to other citizens, by the contrary. There is no wonder that the replicators, even if not programmed as such, usualy became agressive, with this type of treatment. I don't even know if Dr Lee VR trick was sanctioned by the IOA or he gone unofficial.
      You are blowing this way out of proportion. FIrst yeah it has. Menace, Unatural Selection are two big examples. Second this was an unsanctioned project hence illegal hence no responsibility. You are trying to find a moral issue where none exits. Also Dr. Lee's project was offical.

      I
      just hope that in the future we will not fill that VR with all the personalities inhabiting bodies we don't feel confortable around and if we are so good with transfering personalities we should do it in a clone-organical body. I mean if we create repicator shells from scratches how hard will it be to make a clone. If those dumb life-suckers aliens can do it i think that we can too.

      Apart from this issue, i really enjoyed the episode like all Earth based episodes and i think it was the best from this category both SGA and SG-1.
      It's not about that. She is a replicator and a huge security risk. Nothing immoral was done.
      Proud Sam/Jack and Daniel/Vala and John/Teyla Shipper!
      "We're Americans! Shoot the guys following us!"
      Don S. Davis 1942-2008 R.I.P. My Friend.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Mitchell82 View Post
        Actually in "Gamekeeper" it was VR "Avatar" was different. It was modified but still VR. As to the Aurora no it was a VR program that took the users into the environment. And yeah it was destroyed so either A) we built one based off that tech, B) it's from the Orion.
        I was reffering to the episode in which Daniel is inhabited by several personalities or even the one in which the same Daniel switch his personality with Machelo. There is no clue that we made any of these 2 technologies work and neither one require a VR.

        Regarding 'Aurora', i really remeber that VR was based on different principles and like we saw when a body was pull out there was no reminent personality in the system.

        Originally posted by Mitchell82 View Post
        You are blowing this way out of proportion. FIrst yeah it has. Menace, Unatural Selection are two big examples. Second this was an unsanctioned project hence illegal hence no responsibility. You are trying to find a moral issue where none exits. Also Dr. Lee's project was offical.
        First, the girl in 'Menace' was emotional instable giving faults in programming as suggested and all her behavior tended to be agressive and she comitet agressive acts, like violence and destruction of property (remember the toys?) and other. 'Unnatural Selection' and i suppose you are reffering to 'Five', was a war like situation and he was clasified as colateral damage, a requirement for the succes of the mission. Neither Five or Niam meets the requirments of a 'peacfull being' and we had no knowledge of their programming, wasn't made by a Eart's citizen and they only prooved to be 'less agresive' than other.

        Like a comparison, Ava Dixon, not only that it was programmed with morality and civic sense, which she proove, even self-sacrifice and concern for general good (even superior to her creator), but was made by a Earth citizen. The fact that her creation was not authorizated is of no consequence. This is the thing about responsability and citizenship for the actions of our citizens, both official and unofficial. This the the second side of the coin, when keeping everything secret for the general population when leting the alien techonlogy slip everywhere and when public funds go in this sort of projects. You cannot clean everything by 'disposing'. I'm sorry but i guess i disagree with you. IOA is acting totally irresponsable, without a valid mandate and many times go against our most sacred princiles.

        Originally posted by Mitchell82 View Post
        Whoa whoa whoa. That is a huge exaggeration. The simple fact that she is a sentient AI is a huge problem. It is way too big of a risk to keep her in the real world. I do not see the Nazi comparrison at all.
        Originally posted by Mitchell82 View Post
        It's not about that. She is a replicator and a huge security risk. Nothing immoral was done.
        She is not a replicator, techically speaking, as she also mention. There are other type of techological beings. Being made from nanites doesn't make you a replicator but the ability to replicate, which was severy limited and without access to neutronium almost impossibe.

        But i guess you can call her anyway you want, the problem is that you show the same racial prejudicies as Bates. You cannot judge all races for the actions of few and every individual entity is ressponsable for his action only. I'm sorry but taking this into consideration what happened in this episode regarding her character, yours and Bate's remarks with 'huge security risks' don't fly. And keeping her on Earth was not the only option.

        The nazi were considering other races and nations like a 'security treat' to their own safty and purity. Of coure there is a long way to that, but i can say that IOA made first steps (in 'Outcast' and 'Ark of Truth'). The remark 'security risk' based only on races/species aspect is more and more bringed in discussion and it is mostly base on irrelevant assumptions. You cannot look to a rock and say: 'This rock is a huge security risk. Just imagine what damage it can do if... and if... and if...'. There are certatain criteries to clasify something as a security risk and you cannot based that only on one's entity race/specie. Few of the atributes of being sencient supose also individuality, free-will, so choice.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by elbo View Post
          I didn't enjoy too much what they pull out at the end with the VR and stuff. I mean i don't even think they can do that, downloading personalities and writing original vrirtual enviroments is a little outside of our skill set. It was an SG-1 episode though with personalities transfers but no kind of conscience interaction and no VR, just stocking. And in 'Aurora' that vritual enviroment required a working body to cary a personality and as i remember with Aurora destroyed there were no life pods left so from where did they get one?

          Then very important is the moral-philosophical aspect of phisicaly disposing of a sencient and peacefull being with a superior moral code and civil behavior than 90% from the black suits from IOA (for example). IOA looks more and more like a nazist organisation and Bates could play any time a Hitler reincarnation (this is a compliment for his acting skills). For the first time in SG series, a being is disposed for what she is made of and not for her behaviour, if i remember corectly, never happened before. I don't like us to look like the ancients, who even not so ovious, they were suffering from a little god complex. When a member of Earth societiy creates a life, we should take responsability for it and treat it as such, especially when there is no clues to indicate that can be a treat to other citizens, by the contrary. There is no wonder that the replicators, even if not programmed as such, usualy became agressive, with this type of treatment. I don't even know if Dr Lee VR trick was sanctioned by the IOA or he gone unofficial.

          I just hope that in the future we will not fill that VR with all the personalities inhabiting bodies we don't feel confortable around and if we are so good with transfering personalities we should do it in a clone-organical body. I mean if we create repicator shells from scratches how hard will it be to make a clone. If those dumb life-suckers aliens can do it i think that we can too.

          Apart from this issue, i really enjoyed the episode like all Earth based episodes and i think it was the best from this category both SGA and SG-1.
          Hay look someone used the HITLER argument! Thats a sign of a deep debate!

          Comment


            #6
            Well, if they didn't put her in the VR environment, they would have had to kill her. And let's face it, she was a machine.
            I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

            Comment


              #7
              Technical issues aside I thought it was a pretty neat way to deal with the situation. It was obvious they couldn't release her. That just wouldn't be believable so they dealt with it a quite an original way.
              Please do me a huge favour and help me be with the love of my life.

              Comment


                #8
                Have you ever watched Stargate?

                You do realize who the replicators are and what they're fully capable of right?
                These are the wrong people... in the wrong place.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Ava is better off in this version of Dr Lee's VR world, anyways, instead of being a character in his WOW account.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Avenger View Post
                    Well, if they didn't put her in the VR environment, they would have had to kill her. And let's face it, she was a machine.
                    This is a very simplistic view of things. She was much more. I was personaly surprised that the writers pictured her that way, but they did.

                    Look, in SG universe we encouter many races, species who could have been clasified like security risks, giving the damage they coud do to us. We encouter both groups and individual that could be clasified this way.

                    Asgard probably the most technological evolved one, they could have blown our planet without a sweat. If their survival would have depended on that, maby they would have done it. They weren't very much in the emotions and feelings business.

                    Tollans, same more evolved than us and their phase-shifting technology would have easily penetrete our Iris which was our only defence for a long time. In the end they proove that they really were a security risk.

                    Tor'ra, symbiotic race, descendands from the Goa'uld pool always ploting and scheming, usualy didn't showed any concern for the colateral damage in their holy war with the Goa'uld. Also more advantced and ancient than us.

                    Jaffa, as Goa'uld pets not very bright, but the with the 'toys' Goa'uld gave them they were always a security threat. I mention the Jaffa, because we had the opportunity to neutralise the Goa'uld in few days using symbiot poison but we choose not to and they remained a HUGE security risk until Anubis was finaly defeated.

                    All those 'security risks' races/species were even allies of Earth, but absolute no one put Eart's interes first even once, before theirs. Asgard, as Thor says had always more pressing matters than Earth's safety; they merely dispached a ship when the events allowed to check on us. Tollan when facing their own survival sell us to the Goa'uld without blinking (just 2 exception, Narim and Olomac, 2 people we previously save their lifes). Tok'ra and Jaffa broke the alliance when it became to costly for them.

                    And what we do when we finally met an alien entity who put the survival of some earthligs before her own survial and freedom. We scrap her into base materials and we TRAP their conscience in a LIE. This sound very cruel and ungratefull to me. She didn't came to earth to invade us, she was created and educated here and none of her action could lead us to think that she can became a security risk.

                    The 'machine' is just the shell, but her AI (capability of her own decision and choices) and expecially the one year life experienced on earth and her civic-moral behaviour make her a much more complex entity than a machine. We are a bunch of organic molecules as well, a organic machine, what is important is onty the conscience and the personality which make us distinct individual entities.

                    Actually the end of 'Outcast' remainded me of a scene from 'Progeny', when after Oberoth finsish scaning the human team he says that the 'most prudent' way to deal with them is to terminate their lifes, because we were just 'organic'.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by P-90_177 View Post
                      Technical issues aside I thought it was a pretty neat way to deal with the situation. It was obvious they couldn't release her. That just wouldn't be believable so they dealt with it a quite an original way.
                      If they let her go, there'd be bigger complaints that stupid!Atlantis was back - far too great a security risk (she could easily reprogrammed). So, either kill her, lock her away for all time, or let who she is (her 'soul') live on (albeit in VR). She's doing better than FRAN (even if she willingly sacrificed herself)!

                      I'd say they picked the most moral option. And kudos to the writers for thinking it through for once.
                      I'm not Weird, I'm Gifted!

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by jonno View Post
                        If they let her go, there'd be bigger complaints that stupid!Atlantis was back - far too great a security risk (she could easily reprogrammed). So, either kill her, lock her away for all time, or let who she is (her 'soul') live on (albeit in VR). She's doing better than FRAN (even if she willingly sacrificed herself)!

                        I'd say they picked the most moral option. And kudos to the writers for thinking it through for once.
                        They let a Wraith go, who didn't prooven even 10% trustworthy than Ave.

                        They let Teal'c buy an apartment on Earth.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          How long do you think will pass until she realizes where she is and how would you think she will react to that?

                          She didn't do anything to deserve dead or phisical/pshihical imprisoment. As risky as you wanna see it, the only 2 corect courses of action are either to exile her on other planet or to keep her on Earth under survilance.

                          This is the risk IOA and other instiutions should have taken as responsability for leting alien technology and knowledge slip in the unauthorised hands and actually a sencient peacefull life came from this. No one give them the right to play god to cover their mistakes. And if there is a risk here (i don't see it) they should have taken head on.

                          I guess being organic has its advantages and a serial killer who is released from imprisoment is not a security risk any more, becase you know he is organic. But a untainted conscience who inhabit an technological body and play by the rules is never welcome on our beloved Earth and nowhere else really. Maby in a digital simulation?

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I have a question... Do we know for sure that she was tricked into going into the VR world? I certainly didn't get that impression. I got the impression she fully agreed to the solution. She thanked Sheppard for sticking up for her. She knew her options.

                            As for the moral dilemma... Once the consciousness is salvaged, who cares what happens to the body? If she proves herself in the virtual world they can always recreate her body in the future if need be. I'm sure they made a copy of the nanite code before storing the mental parameters in the VR world.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Remember Niam? He was a good replicator too. Then he was wiped and reprogrammed.

                              I liked Ava's character too, and I'd like to see her again, but the risk of someone like the Trust finding her and reprogramming her was just too great. I mean, it was clear from the episode that someone was trying to weaponize the replicators. It was also clear that they had a *lot* of access to classified material (they were able to make the replicators resistant to ARWs for one thing).

                              So given that, would you want to just release Ava on either Earth or another planet, knowing full well that som. Whoever those people are, and we never find out, their existence was the whole point of the episode. I have the feeling we haven't seen the last of them.

                              There were two opinions.

                              1) Take her back to Atlantis where the Trust (or whoever) couldn't get to her, cause no where in the MW galaxy would be safe, or

                              2) Deactivate her.

                              Thankfully they were able to think of a third, less repulsive option.

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