VR Future

[Jill_Ion]

If she was already on another planet, then she wouldn't necessarily been as much of a security risk as she was on Earth. No matter how nice Ava was, no matter how much I liked the character, she was a replicator and IMHO couldn't be allowed to roam Earth freely. Even "under surveillance" wouldn't work, because of the $$$ and manpower it would take to watch one being - and what if she decided (we don't know the full extent of her programming) to give her "surveillance" the slip? If she was sentient and had free will, then she could've gone on and done anything.

I also don't think we should've dumped her on some uninhabited planet. Exiled to be alone forever? Didja ever see the Star Trek : TOS ep with the Librarian who "punished" the cave-living woman by making her live alone for the rest of her life? Is that a fate you would want Ava to have?

I think also a major reason they would put Ava in this VR, which isn't the best of situations, but is better than 99% of the alternatives, is that she was "bigger, stronger, faster" than humans. The IOA and SGC weren't threatened by Martin Lloyd.

I dunno. Maybe tomorrow I'll go argue the opposite, but for tonight, I'm thinking they gave her a chance to exist better than deleting her consciousness or locking her in a cell for the next several hundred years - or whatever her lifespan is.

Finally, could we puh-leeeeeze leave Hitler and Nazi *******s out of this conversation? Thanks in advance.

[elbo]

I have a question... Do we know for sure that she was tricked into going into the VR world? I certainly didn't get that impression. I got the impression she fully agreed to the solution. She thanked Sheppard for sticking up for her. She knew her options.

As for the moral dilemma... Once the consciousness is salvaged, who cares what happens to the body? If she proves herself in the virtual world they can always recreate her body in the future if need be. I'm sure they made a copy of the nanite code before storing the mental parameters in the VR world.

She has no ideea that she is trapped. She was misslead to belive that IOA agree to release her under the condition to not apply for a scientific job or to do scientific reserch. If she would have been aware such a lie would have been usless.

Her consciousness was not salvaged, come on. It was trapped in a bunch of simulations and smart programs which make a virtual enviroment. Remember 'Matrix' or Freud. It is only a matter a time before she realizes that this is not real life. This is worst than death. She may have started as a program as well, but the time spent on Earth made her a totat different entity comparing to the other simulation. She will want that again, i mean she should.

[elbo]

Remember Niam? He was a good replicator too. Then he was wiped and reprogrammed.

I liked Ava's character too, and I'd like to see her again, but the risk of someone like the Trust finding her and reprogramming her was just too great. I mean, it was clear from the episode that someone was trying to weaponize the replicators. It was also clear that they had a *lot* of access to classified material (they were able to make the replicators resistant to ARWs for one thing).

There is hole in that theory. If the Trust or someonelse has the knowlege of reprogramming nanites, which is not a knowlege very easy to achive, they will create their own repicator; the creation of a replicator is a matter of knowledge not materials, as we saw nutronium is not very hard to find.

So i don't see how she may be a security risk from this perspectime, more that even an organic who is injected with programmed nanites which take ultimatively control of the body ... or a goa'uld symbiot for that matter, who doesn't require programming and he can infiltrate to the highest levels of decision.

[Detox]

It's simple. She is a part of a race of beings who, at least 99% of which, have no other desire than to wipe out all of humankind. This has been proven many MANY times.

If you're going to use the Nazi example, then how about this? Would you let a Nazi, who's armed with a machine gun and infinite ammo, roam free around the world doing whatever he pleases? Even if he says and he won't hurt anyone?

Hell no, you'd lock that son of a ***** up tight.

This is the same thing.

We've seen what happens when the IOA or the SGC tries to keep a potentially dangerous being under guard and survellience. People get killed.

You definitely can't let her go out free in the real world, because too many things could happen. A criminal might shoot her and reveal her alien nature, there might be a malfunction with her coding and she goes bezerk. Don't think of her as a sentient being, but as a sentient weapon. No matter how peaceful it might be, there's ALWAYS the risk of someone getting hurt.

It's the same reason why you can't let her roam free about the SGC, there is just so much technology, including alien, that could affect her and cause her to go crazy and attack everyone. She is an untested piece of technology, that's been derived from technology KNOWN to hate humans.

The VR is the perfect solution, she still gets to live a full complete life, just as if she were let free into the public. Without the risk of her accidently hurting or killing people.

[Avenger]

They let a Wraith go, who didn't prooven even 10% trustworthy than Ave.

They let Teal'c buy an apartment on Earth.

Todd? He proved to be trustworthy. Plus, he had Wraith who could have potentially made it an issue if they didn't let him go.

Teal'c also proved that he was trustworthy. He didn't show up on Earth and just get to leave the SGC.

[gopher65]

There is hole in that theory. If the Trust or someonelse has the knowlege of reprogramming nanites, which is not a knowlege very easy to achive, they will create their own repicator; the creation of a replicator is a matter of knowledge not materials, as we saw nutronium is not very hard to find.

So i don't see how she may be a security risk from this perspectime, more that even an organic who is injected with programmed nanites which take ultimatively control of the body ... or a goa'uld symbiot for that matter, who doesn't require programming and he can infiltrate to the highest levels of decision.

They can't reprogram her now... but six months from now? We know wallance's people were working on nanite programming, and we know the people in question have at least some access to classified stargate technology (ARWs). How long would it be before they tried to reprogram it? Would you want to take that risk given that the whole point of the episode was that some unknown group was trying to create military replicators?

[elbo]

They can't reprogram her now... but six months from now? We know wallance's people were working on nanite programming, and we know the people in question have at least some access to classified stargate technology (ARWs). How long would it be before they tried to reprogram it? Would you want to take that risk given that the whole point of the episode was that some unknown group was trying to create military replicators?

gopher65, like i said, if they have the knowledge, they have the replicator. Is not hard for the Trust or someonelse with his kind of insight in nanite programming to get their hands on some nutronium and to manufacter their own. We saw how easy it is. It could be more tricky to identify and reprogram a potential replicator (Ave), because they don't have acces to her original code.

Of course if Ave is a risk or how much risk, is a long discussion, a subjective one. In my opinion and base on what i saw in this episode, i belive that people like Richard Pool are far greater risk than his creation, for Earth's security. Not to mention IOA's constant leak of potential dangerous information to bussines groups. I have my opinion that the greatest enemy of Earth race in SG univers was Earth, some of our people, like bureaucrats, politicians and colonels, who put Earth in greater danger than any other race/species. They are also responsable for creating the Trust.

I guess that what bothers me, is WHY shouldn't we take that 'risk'? And is not about taking risk as it is about accepting our own mistakes if we want to call it that. Giving a reset and a choice i agree that we SHOULD NOT create replicators and let them roam free on Earth. But if we don't have that choice anymore we should accept the situation as it is. It is not our risk to take anymore but to accept it and to deal with it mature not by presing the delete button. And we shouldn't judge beings by theri specie's CV or what is possible to do but regarding to what they have done.

If we talk possibilities, any human can do a lot of damage (as history tells) and any human can became a security risk, every free-will in fact. We never rationalised this way untill now, why start now? And if we don't want to keep her on Earth, very well we let her on other habited planet with people who accept her for what she is.

[Detox]

gopher65, like i said, if they have the knowledge, they have the replicator. Is not hard for the Trust or someonelse with his kind of insight in nanite programming to get their hands on some nutronium and to manufacter their own. We saw how easy it is. It could be more tricky to identify and reprogram a potential replicator (Ave), because they don't have acces to her original code.

Of course if Ave is a risk or how much risk, is a long discussion, a subjective one. In my opinion and base on what i saw in this episode, i belive that people like Richard Pool are far greater risk than his creation, for Earth's security. Not to mention IOA's constant leak of potential dangerous information to bussines groups. I have my opinion that the greatest enemy of Earth race in SG univers was Earth, some of our people, like bureaucrats, politicians and colonels, who put Earth in greater danger than any other race/species. They are also responsable for creating the Trust.

I guess that what bothers me, is WHY shouldn't we take that 'risk'? And is not about taking risk as it is about accepting our own mistakes if we want to call it that. Giving a reset and a choice i agree that we SHOULD NOT create replicators and let them roam free on Earth. But if we don't have that choice anymore we should accept the situation as it is. It is not our risk to take anymore but to accept it and to deal with it mature not by presing the delete button. And we shouldn't judge beings by theri specie's CV or what is possible to do but regarding to what they have done.

If we talk possibilities, any human can do a lot of damage (as history tells) and any human can became a security risk, every free-will in fact. We never rationalised this way untill now, why start now? And if we don't want to keep her on Earth, very well we let her on other habited planet with people who accept her for what she is.

What if a Goul'd finds her and reprograms her for their evil deeds? Again, what's wrong with putting her in VR? She's essentially living a free life, minus the dangers of actually letting her loose.

And please, don't EVER compare this to the Nazis and Hitler. That is just downright insulting to everyone.

[1138]

I don't see how Ava was any more of a security risk than Teal'c was in the first season of SG-1. They both helped when they didn't have to. Jack fought for Teal'c's rights and for him to be assigned to SG-1 on the basis that Teal'c saved his life. Guess what? Ava came back and saved Sheppard, knowing full well that Earth has a policy to terminate replicators.

I think a more palatable solution would have been to send Ava offworld, to some out of the place settlement. Maybe like Harlan's planet where she can help him out. It's not like she can stir up any trouble on Earth while over there.

[PG15]

I guess that what bothers me, is WHY shouldn't we take that 'risk'? And is not about taking risk as it is about accepting our own mistakes if we want to call it that. Giving a reset and a choice i agree that we SHOULD NOT create replicators and let them roam free on Earth. But if we don't have that choice anymore we should accept the situation as it is. It is not our risk to take anymore but to accept it and to deal with it mature not by presing the delete button. And we shouldn't judge beings by theri specie's CV or what is possible to do but regarding to what they have done.

While that's all good in theory, that we should treat these beings with respect when they have done so in return...we CANNOT take that risk for the simple reason that, if something goes wrong, people will die. Your comparisons with Todd and Teal'c are false, since neither are as dangerous as a replicator on the loose. At the end of the day, both Todd and Teal'c are but 2 beings that can be killed with the right amount of ammo. A full-fledged replicator, which Ava can become with the right programming, is unstoppable by comparison.

Was it moral, was it right? Probably not, but it was necessary.

[2ndgenerationalteran]

Tealc and Todd all had something to offer in military and technical data, she may have been able to compute increadibly but she didnt have any definate and immediate knowlege that could help us. But she did seem to have changed the view on replicators for shep and ronon as they were against killing her. Too bad she could have been an AI for a 304 after they clean out her data stuff.

[kymeric]

The virtual environment isnt real.... but neither is she.

And really how is this any different than when picard did it to holodeck moriarty in TNG. And THAT sentient ai was a beneign accident, not a hidden illegal weapon. The replichick got off light, stop complaining. lol

[Jill_Ion]

I don't see how Ava was any more of a security risk than Teal'c was in the first season of SG-1. They both helped when they didn't have to. Jack fought for Teal'c's rights and for him to be assigned to SG-1 on the basis that Teal'c saved his life. Guess what? Ava came back and saved Sheppard, knowing full well that Earth has a policy to terminate replicators.

I think a more palatable solution would have been to send Ava offworld, to some out of the place settlement. Maybe like Harlan's planet where she can help him out. It's not like she can stir up any trouble on Earth while over there.

I really like the idea of sending her to Harlan's planet. I wonder if she would've wanted to go? The only problem may have been that she could leave if she could discover any gate coordinates, and if she went all darkside, then we'd probably have to help clean up that mess. I dunno - guess they wanted to keep it in SGA canon and not dip their toes too far back into SG-1's storylines.

[Mitchell82]

I was reffering to the episode in which Daniel is inhabited by several personalities or even the one in which the same Daniel switch his personality with Machelo. There is no clue that we made any of these 2 technologies work and neither one require a VR.

but what does that have to do with this situation?

Regarding 'Aurora', i really remeber that VR was based on different principles and like we saw when a body was pull out there was no reminent personality in the system.

Yes but the environment was still there. An VR doesn't shut down when it's inhabitants are removed.

First, the girl in 'Menace' was emotional instable giving faults in programming as suggested and all her behavior tended to be agressive and she comitet agressive acts, like violence and destruction of property (remember the toys?) and other.

Not on purpose though, she was a child through and through but yeah it had to end that way.

'Unnatural Selection' and i suppose you are reffering to 'Five', was a war like situation and he was clasified as colateral damage, a requirement for the succes of the mission. Neither Five or Niam meets the requirments of a 'peacfull being' and we had no knowledge of their programming, wasn't made by a Eart's citizen and they only prooved to be 'less agresive' than other.

While I understood Jack's action and I would have likely done the same it still makes my point. Fifth could have been an ally, same with Niam.

Like a comparison, Ava Dixon, not only that it was programmed with morality and civic sense, which she proove, even self-sacrifice and concern for general good (even superior to her creator), but was made by a Earth citizen.

Wrong. She was no different than Fifth or Niam. She was a "good guy" however first and foremost she was a replicator and was by all intensive circumstances dead. She was not made an Earth citizen she was already one just a dead one.

The fact that her creation was not authorizated is of no consequence. This is the thing about responsability and citizenship for the actions of our citizens, both official and unofficial. This the the second side of the coin, when keeping everything secret for the general population when leting the alien techonlogy slip everywhere and when public funds go in this sort of projects. You cannot clean everything by 'disposing'. I'm sorry but i guess i disagree with you. IOA is acting totally irresponsable, without a valid mandate and many times go against our most sacred princiles.

I take it you have no idea how our military and government works. This is not about citizenship. She was a robot that was created illegally and has no expectation of being a citizen. This was an illegal operation and the risk was huge this was the only option save destroying her. There is no morality issue.

She is not a replicator, techically speaking, as she also mention. There are other type of techological beings. Being made from nanites doesn't make you a replicator but the ability to replicate, which was severy limited and without access to neutronium almost impossibe.

Maybey so but she was still built from a replicator nanite. I'm sorry but your argument is flawed.

But i guess you can call her anyway you want, the problem is that you show the same racial prejudicies as Bates. You cannot judge all races for the actions of few and every individual entity is ressponsable for his action only. I'm sorry but taking this into consideration what happened in this episode regarding her character, yours and Bate's remarks with 'huge security risks' don't fly. And keeping her on Earth was not the only option.

Wait one damn minute. I am not racist I am military so I am more than qualified to know what a security risk is and she was one of them.

The nazi were considering other races and nations like a 'security treat' to their own safty and purity. Of coure there is a long way to that, but i can say that IOA made first steps (in 'Outcast' and 'Ark of Truth'). The remark 'security risk' based only on races/species aspect is more and more bringed in discussion and it is mostly base on irrelevant assumptions. You cannot look to a rock and say: 'This rock is a huge security risk. Just imagine what damage it can do if... and if... and if...'. There are certatain criteries to clasify something as a security risk and you cannot based that only on one's entity race/specie. Few of the atributes of being sencient supose also individuality, free-will, so choice.

Incorrect.

[elbo]

The virtual environment isnt real.... but neither is she.

And really how is this any different than when picard did it to holodeck moriarty in TNG. And THAT sentient ai was a beneign accident, not a hidden illegal weapon. The replichick got off light, stop complaining. lol

She was real enough to save Sheppard's and Ronon's lifes and to prevent a potential catastrophe on Earth and even the reveal of SGC program. Don't forget that Richard Pool had a buyer for the male replicator and we don't know who he/she is or that he/she will not try again. Maby is even someone from the Trust and i doubt that he/she want a replicator for planting flowers.

I really can remember that specific. But if you want to get TNG as refference, maby you should specify that they had an AI part of the Enterprise crew with a positive contribution to the mission, even if lt. Data was always a security risk giving his nature but so was anyone else. A human for example can be braiwashed, how saw even in SG1. I really preffer the 'Andromeda' refference.

If we want a 100% risk free era, we should seriosly consider droping any off-world campaign. We have the most powerfull ships in the known universe and we should focus in building more and a planetary satelite defence system. Case closed. Any minute off-world increases our chances to make new enemies and the reward is minimal now when we are fairly technological developed.

I also want to remaind you that there are people in SG universe not so short-minded like earthlings and i remember a specific episode from SG-1, when a race INVITE an AI to live with them. How do you comment this?

On a personal note, i have wished to see Ave on Atlantis even in Sheppard's team (no offence but Teyla is fading more and more), of course with her consent. I belive that she could have bring a huge contribution to the expedition, both in the city or in the field; we still have Wraith to defeat and imagine what beneficial could be someone who is imune to stun weapons when the team is ambushed and not only.

In this way we don't take the 'risk' of having her on Earth or becaming a Trust 'victim'. There are cases when the potential benefits overwhelm the potential risk and this is one of them, same as it was with Teal'c. From this reason and her positive behavior, i don't think that we can call her a security risk.

Plus, having an AI in the show, in Atlantis, as main or recurring character, could offer a new dimention to SGA, which SGA lacked and most sci-fi shows had. I deffinatively wanted to see that!