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    #76
    Originally posted by JSPuddlejumper View Post
    Lets not forget humans do not require meat to live and the Wraith do.
    I do require meat!
    Stolen Kosovo
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      #77
      But didn't the lantean's create the waith?

      I don't think we've been told why yet, but dialogue in "The Return" said that
      Go home aliens, go home!!!!

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        #78
        Actively creating something vs. neglecting a new species developing is something very different.

        And I did mentiond the Hives are big: 11 km long, and it's mentioned there could be like 2,000 on one Hive.

        Oh. 60 x 2,000 max= 120,000 so that's not even near the amount of Wraith they made for the Lantean War.

        Maybe they fed on each other at a time, too. (On their Warriors).

        Or there are really big planets out there where they stay on.

        Or they really shot the carp out of each other.

        In Loving Memory of Wraithlord.

        I wish I got to know you better.

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          #79
          Originally posted by GoSpikey View Post
          Actively creating something vs. neglecting a new species developing is something very different.

          And I did mentiond the Hives are big: 11 km long, and it's mentioned there could be like 2,000 on one Hive.

          Oh. 60 x 2,000 max= 120,000 so that's not even near the amount of Wraith they made for the Lantean War.

          Maybe they fed on each other at a time, too. (On their Warriors).

          Or there are really big planets out there where they stay on.

          Or they really shot the carp out of each other.

          All good points.

          BTW the 2nd wraith queen in your sig with red hair blue skin a real hottie
          Go home aliens, go home!!!!

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            #80
            Originally posted by GoSpikey View Post
            We have no idea yet as to how fast a Hive can be built, we know there's not that many Queens left, less than one per Hive, but we don't know if some are stashed away, so not every Hive of the ones that are in orbit have a Queen. We don't know how many Hives are sitting on a planet..

            I'm sure there's enough yummy Wraithies left
            I agree with this, and the fact that they can easily make new Wraith characters up as they wish with all the unknown facts and all.
            Jack: "Teal'c, look scary and take lead."
            Jack: (to a nurse with a needle) "Listen, really jam it in this time, okay!"
            Sheppard: The clowns? Oh, yeah, the clowns... we fight them too. Entire armies, spilling out of Volkswagens. We do our best to fight them off, but they keep sending 'em in.

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              #81
              Originally posted by Coco Pops View Post
              But didn't the lantean's create the waith?

              I don't think we've been told why yet, but dialogue in "The Return" said that
              They said they were 'responsible for the emergence of the Wraith as a species' (I think that's the quote). From what I gather, the Ancients must have seeded the iratus bug planet with humans, humans on which the bug fed and absorbed their DNA and eventually evolved into Wraith. Had humans never populated that planet, the bug wouldn't have fed on them, absorbed the DNA, etc. (though it does beg the question: what did the bug feed upon before humans arrived, animals? And why didn't they absorb the DNA of their previous food source like they did with human DNA? Hmmmm....)

              Bottom line is that humans are responsible for the existence of the Wraith, and should therefore attempt to find some way for the Wraith to coexist with them (either by accepting what they are and resiging themselves to the fact that some humans will be food, or by helping them find a way to gain nutrition from regular food/find an alternative food source). Instead the humans just act as sly and underhanded as the Wraith - only difference is, the Wraith act that way because it's part of their survival instinct, whereas the humans act that way because they can, though they have other choices.

              das
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                #82
                I just read this entire thread and I agree with what has been said but a point: I don't believe that the authors underestimate the ambivalence of Atlantis behaviour compared to wraith. They wouldn't have tossed Ellia around otherwise, then Michael and Todd. Both Michael and Todd say highly pertinent things at times. Also I expect a lot from episode 5x12: (warning, don't follow this link if you don't want spoilers) http://stargate-sg1-solutions.com/wi..._Episode_Guide

                *However*, I fear audience considerations: What if most viewers are too stubborn to even considerate wraith as quasi-human? (I love that English has two different words for human and humane. In French, both translate as "humain", which leads to confusion. Wraith are human, which means sometimes humane and sometimes inhumane, just like the Atlantis expedition.) What if most viewers are unable to accept that real life is made of shades of grey, that there are not "the good" and "the bad" but only conflicting interests, or if they expect fiction to be unrealistic on that topic? Perverted ethics ("the good guys have a divine right to commit any evil just because they are the good guys") turns me away quite fast, but what for the majority of SGA viewers?

                Anyway, I dream of seeing the Atlantis crew turned into wraiths for some time and experiencing hunger. I long to see them feed on each other or on innocent locals when they can't bear the hunger pain any longer. Could be a nanite-induced dream or an illusion of sorts. I would really enjoy it. >:->
                My Stargate Atlantis fanfictions - Wraith font
                Todd contacts Atlantis once more... (spoilers up to season 4) 1. Glimpse Into the Evil | 2. Of Wraith and Men (in progress)
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                  #83
                  Originally posted by Laura Dove View Post
                  I just read this entire thread and I agree with what has been said but a point: I don't believe that the authors underestimate the ambivalence of Atlantis behaviour compared to wraith. They wouldn't have tossed Ellia around otherwise, then Michael and Todd. Both Michael and Todd say highly pertinent things at times. Also I expect a lot from episode 5x12: (warning, don't follow this link if you don't want spoilers) http://stargate-sg1-solutions.com/wi..._Episode_Guide
                  I'm not sure WHAT the writers think! They obviously have added Ellia, Todd, and Michael for a reason - all who are sympathetic characters, with Todd and Michael both pointing out how much like Wraith humans really are. And yet...instead of using this information to allow the characters to come together, they continue to find ways to make the Wraith 'evil', perhaps just as an excuse to be able to shoot them, or something. After CG we had Submersion, Reunion, Travelers, SoW and Midway, all of which either make the Wraith look downright evil, or give the main characters something to shoot at.

                  Here's how I would have treated all those episodes differently:

                  Submersion: I would have allowed the Queen to escape. Having just gone through his ordeal with Todd, Sheppard SHOULD have understood that the Queen 1. was STARVING (of course she was going to feed!), and 2. wanted was to return to her own. It would have been a very sobering moment. The team would question Sheppard about letting her go. "Just because we didn't kill that one who gave you back your life, doesn't mean that we shouldn't kill this one. Besides, she sucked on what's-his-name." Sheppard would just say something like, "Yeah, I know. But something tells me this is the right thing to do. Let's just see where it goes from here..." (that way she could have returned to bite them in the butt later on)

                  Reunion: This one was basically okay, but I would not have 'abused' the gift of life like the writer[s] did. Todd showed it to be quite special, and it was also used in the Travelers, so no reason to show it twice in one season. But if they HAD to use it, then I would have done it this way: 1. Watching their family/friends fed upon over a period of time. 2. When it's there turn, they beg for their lives (can't tell me this doesn't happen - humans aren't that stoic). 3. The Wraith, ignoring their pleas, feed anyway - right up to the brink of death...then...they start talking... "Are you ready to die? This could be different for you...you could be like me, and live forever. I could give you back all that you had, and more...much more...IF you worship me, and me alone." THEN restore their life. Not the suck/restore/suck/restore/suck/restore that they showed - that was a bit...cheesy.

                  Travelers: This one wasn't so bad, except too many Wraith were killed. But that's my personal opinion...I'm sure it's not everyone's. I would have preferred that at least two survived...the one that did, and foot-flip guy...he's totally cool. The gift of life scene in this one was pretty good because we learn that it feels good to receive it.

                  SoW: This one wasn't too bad - it did show us a little about Wraith interaction and reproduction. However, it was an all-too-cliche SGA ending - hive and facility go 'boom'. It didn't really progress Wraith/human relations - it only served to let Todd know that Teyla was telepathic, and - well - that's about it. I would have liked a better space battle (I LOVE when the crippled ship manages to destroy the undamaged one) and I would have had the battle earlier in the episode. Then I would have had Todd agree to help Sheppard retrieve the ZPM - raid the facility, get the ZPM - and close the place down (perhaps damaging it) without destroying it. For his help, the humans let Todd take his crippled ship and leave...and they get a ZPM (this ZPM would then become a target for Todd, since he would still see it as his own - again, fuel for another episode).

                  Midway: This episode was just a waste of Wraith flesh. All it did to advance the development of the Wraith is show that they get snippy with one another (Commander Wraith talking down to Technician Wraith), they have a big stun ball, and to suggest that Todd was not to be trusted. Oh, and that Kavanagh faints at the sight of a feeding hand. It would have been much more interesting if the Wraith weren't so easy to kill - ya know - if they actually PUT UP A FIGHT!, and if one of the faced Wraith had escaped. For me, it would have been the technician, since he's the one who betrayed Todd. I would have had this Wraith return in the Kindred, shown as a captive of Todd's. When discussing the 'hard times' because of the poisoned humans, I would have had Todd just glance over at his captive technician-turned-traitor, and say with a wicked little grin, "At least I have sustanence for a few weeks..." It doesn't need to be shown, the audience would just know that the traitor became Todd's dinner.

                  *However*, I fear audience considerations: What if most viewers are too stubborn to even considerate wraith as quasi-human?
                  I fear this, too. I'm not sure that most viewers feel any sympathy towards the Wraith, even Todd. But if not, the fault lies in the writing, simply because audiences have come to expect every 'evil' Wraith will be dead by episode's end, and every 'good' Wraith (Ellia, Michael) to turn 'evil' - so any real development of the characters might be hard for some to swallow. Although, Todd seems to be quite a hit...

                  Anyway, I dream of seeing the Atlantis crew turned into wraiths for some time and experiencing hunger. I long to see them feed on each other or on innocent locals when they can't bear the hunger pain any longer. Could be a nanite-induced dream or an illusion of sorts. I would really enjoy it. >:->
                  That would be wonderful! It should be done, too. You really can't know what it's like for someone until you've walked in their shoes. I think it's time for that, though we might get that in The Queen. It will be interesting to see if Teyla is more, or less, sympathetic towards the Wraith afterwards. She should be MORE (because she'll understand how difficult their society is), but I think she'll just become as bitter as Ronon.

                  In other words, I think the humans are slowly becoming more and more like the Wraith, and failing to see it in themselves, although the audience can. Is this also a way to make the audience 'hate' the Wraith? "Look how nasty the humans are getting - and that's because they're becoming like the Wraith!! Those guys are soooo evil, their evil is rubbing off on the good guys!! Even dear, sweet Sheppard is mean now!"

                  I just hope S5 doesn't screw up the Wraith, not when they are JUST starting to get really good.

                  das
                  Last edited by dasNdanger; June 20, 2008, 01:08 PM.
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                    #84
                    Originally posted by dasNdanger View Post
                    I'm not sure WHAT the writers think!
                    I'm not in their head either, of course, but it's the impression I get from Joseph Mallozzi's blog. Also Christopher Heyerdahl's interviews about Todd tend to add to it.

                    Oh, and I just remembered "The Game". There are no wraith in this episode but it proves that Atlantis are no good-doers: They are mean, petty, and like to play god with unsuspecting populations.

                    instead of using this information to allow the characters to come together, they continue to find ways to make the Wraith 'evil', perhaps just as an excuse to be able to shoot them, or something. After CG we had Submersion, Reunion, Travelers, SoW and Midway, all of which either make the Wraith look downright evil, or give the main characters something to shoot at.
                    In fact, I don't mind having plenty of disposable wraith foes, as long as it's not implied that all wraith are evil beings that should be destroyed to the last without the single bit of remorse. What I miss most is a recurring character among enemy wraith factions, like a wraith version of Kolya. Michael doesn't fit because he is too much of a victim (we can't help but sympathise), and Todd doesn't fit because he is so infinitely better as the semi-ally he currently is: Turning him into a foe would be a tremendous waste of potential. Ideally, it would be Todd's counterpart in a rival hive, either a queen or (preferably) a commander.

                    Submersion: I would have allowed the Queen to escape.
                    I'm not sure on this one, at least not with the story happening on Atlantis' planet; and I like how they totally own her, hehehe. But maybe "Submersion" should have taken place before "Common Ground". On the other hand, Sheppard and the team as a whole always prove how nasty they can be, so... Once again, I don't mind them showing a lack of humanity, as long as they someday look into a mirror and realise what they have done.

                    Reunion: This one was basically okay, but I would not have 'abused' the gift of life like the writer[s] did.
                    Agreed, your idea is better.

                    Travelers: This one wasn't so bad, except too many Wraith were killed.
                    As I said above, I don't mind that as long as not all wraith become cannon fodder. What I didn't like is that Sheppard trusts Larrin more than Todd despite her repeated beatings and betrayals. Poor Todd should grow breasts; maybe it would help?

                    SoW: This one wasn't too bad - it did show us a little about Wraith interaction and reproduction.
                    Your ideas are great although I already like it how it is. I like how Rodney repeatedly calls Todd their "wraith friend" although he's not too eager to go find out what happened to him, and I really enjoyed the Teyla / queen mental battle.

                    Midway: This episode was just a waste of Wraith flesh.
                    Well, I was surprised by two points:
                    1. From the start, it seemed obvious that Todd was innocent even if he had first stolen the information (I don't know what the original dialogues say, but in French they talk about a "shared acquaintance"; I even thought they had him captured and forced to disclose relevant information), and
                    2. The two faced wraith in Midway did not show the gratuitous malevolence we had seen so often in past episodes. They were not evil. They were just soldiers trying to invade the enemy land, nothing more, nothing less.

                    But yeah, I wish wraith opponents could pose as big a threat as Kolya's soldiers in "The Storm" and "The Eye".

                    I would have had this Wraith return in the Kindred, shown as a captive of Todd's. When discussing the 'hard times' because of the poisoned humans, I would have had Todd just glance over at his captive technician-turned-traitor, and say with a wicked little grin, "At least I have sustanence for a few weeks..." It doesn't need to be shown, the audience would just know that the traitor became Todd's dinner.
                    Ha ha ha! Excellent, I would have loved it!

                    I'm not sure that most viewers feel any sympathy towards the Wraith, even Todd. But if not, the fault lies in the writing, simply because audiences have come to expect every 'evil' Wraith will be dead by episode's end, and every 'good' Wraith (Ellia, Michael) to turn 'evil' - so any real development of the characters might be hard for some to swallow. Although, Todd seems to be quite a hit...
                    The quest for audience is a slippery path. You paint everything in black and white, you cut off any complexity to please the lazy mind of the majority of entertainment-seekers; so you turn away people who want deeper reflexions; so your audience is even more inclined to like simple plots; etc. It's a vicious circle towards conformism and against any kind of risks, including philosophic or ethical questions. The balance is hard to reach.

                    I think it's time for that, though we might get that in The Queen. It will be interesting to see if Teyla is more, or less, sympathetic towards the Wraith afterwards. She should be MORE (because she'll understand how difficult their society is), but I think she'll just become as bitter as Ronon.
                    I don't know but I'm sure eagerly waiting for this episode. Hope I won't be disappointed.

                    In other words, I think the humans are slowly becoming more and more like the Wraith, and failing to see it in themselves, although the audience can. Is this also a way to make the audience 'hate' the Wraith? "Look how nasty the humans are getting - and that's because they're becoming like the Wraith!! Those guys are soooo evil, their evil is rubbing off on the good guys!! Even dear, sweet Sheppard is mean now!"
                    I don't think people will blame the wraith for Atlantis evil deeds. I fear more some kind of "good guys have all rights to commit any ugly crime just because they are the good guys" fanaticism. I'm not sure it's better, though.

                    I just hope S5 doesn't screw up the Wraith, not when they are JUST starting to get really good.
                    Same here!
                    My Stargate Atlantis fanfictions - Wraith font
                    Todd contacts Atlantis once more... (spoilers up to season 4) 1. Glimpse Into the Evil | 2. Of Wraith and Men (in progress)
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                      #85
                      Completely agree with everything dasNdanger said !!!!!! there are many points there one needs to think about
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                        #86
                        I agree too! But if you compare the decisions of the team from S1-3 it is unlike them. After this ep I really thought "that is not Sheppard anymore". Maybe they wanted to make a tougher Shep but they really screwed it up. And I don't buy the explanation, even so Christopher Heyerdahl said it, that's because CG was more meaningful for Todd than for Shep because for Shep it was only another adventure.

                        I mean think of it, you work together with a wraith, your evil enemy, to escape and he not only keeps the deal but tells you to go on without him to finally giving your back your life which was not part of the deal. If having ones live restored is not a hell of an experience then what is?

                        Those ep with Todd would have been a wonderfull opportunity to develop a trustful relationship between a human and a wraith but instead the interactions are getting more and more aggressive due to Shep and a responding Todd to this treatment. It just doesn't make sense how Shep treats Todd in "The Seer". First he takes him prisoner than he says this wraith might be different concerning trusting that just afterwards he wants to double-cross him twice and agrees to kill him. Awful writing.
                        Blue is such a nice color, especially if you have wings.

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                          #87
                          Originally posted by Skie View Post
                          I agree too! But if you compare the decisions of the team from S1-3 it is unlike them. After this ep I really thought "that is not Sheppard anymore". Maybe they wanted to make a tougher Shep but they really screwed it up. And I don't buy the explanation, even so Christopher Heyerdahl said it, that's because CG was more meaningful for Todd than for Shep because for Shep it was only another adventure.

                          I mean think of it, you work together with a wraith, your evil enemy, to escape and he not only keeps the deal but tells you to go on without him to finally giving your back your life which was not part of the deal. If having ones live restored is not a hell of an experience then what is?

                          Those ep with Todd would have been a wonderfull opportunity to develop a trustful relationship between a human and a wraith but instead the interactions are getting more and more aggressive due to Shep and a responding Todd to this treatment. It just doesn't make sense how Shep treats Todd in "The Seer". First he takes him prisoner than he says this wraith might be different concerning trusting that just afterwards he wants to double-cross him twice and agrees to kill him. Awful writing.


                          Trouble is the writers were terribly inconsistent the whole series. Todd did something he didn't have to do giving Sheppard back his life but he does anyway and is basically stabbed in the back later on.
                          Go home aliens, go home!!!!

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                            #88
                            Originally posted by Coco Pops View Post
                            Trouble is the writers were terribly inconsistent the whole series. Todd did something he didn't have to do giving Sheppard back his life but he does anyway and is basically stabbed in the back later on.
                            Yes, that happened all the time. What about the wraith rival the ancients in power and technology, having telepathy, being smart. It all crumbled down getting their ass kicked by some puny, outnumbered lanteans!


                            Originally posted by naamiaiset View Post
                            [COLOR="Teal"]I agree with you das, but I don't think it was that bad for todd. sheppard had no reason to take him captive, but look at what todd gained from it...

                            if todd hadn't been captive, atlantis wouldn't have been monitoring his tracking device. if sheppard's team hadn't followed the signal and found todd, who knows what might've happened to him.
                            He would have achieved all that without being captive. And about monitoring his tracking device. First, after they trusted each other and defeated the replicators together, it would make sense to stay in touch so they could have exchanged some communication device. Second, thanks to his imprisonment he lost his loyal hive (with queen, so why she was on this ship remains a mistery to me. Its too risky, I don't think the wraith would have done that) and had to work with another one in BAMSR and thanks to that got betrayed.
                            Blue is such a nice color, especially if you have wings.

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                              #89
                              I'm ambivalent about the writers, as I have no idea how the movie was supposed to go. Personally, I think most of what happened to Todd was intentional and was supposed to eventually lead to him showing Sheppard what humanity has been showing itself to be and that they are new to the Galaxy, not people who have truly suffered at the hands of the wraith or know of what the wraith have been through.

                              I think the entirety of all of Todd's episodes (or most of them) AND the Kolya ones was to show John has slowly morphing into his own personal enemy and personal mental torture, yet is completely unaware of any change.

                              Several things were completely left out from the first post:
                              1) Todd, after never killing John despite all his chances, doubts, and helping the human, says he never expected John to keep up his part of the bargain. John gets something free (restored life) and Todd expected a bullet to the head in return.

                              2) Rodney refers to Todd as 'it'. Just because Todd doesn't hear it (he does hear that they plan to blame Wallace's death entirely on him, but seems to be ignoring them). We refer to dogs as 'he' and 'she', but not an alien whose programming skills could stop the deaths of millions of humans?

                              3) At the very end, John does three things. First, he admits the only reason he kept his word to Todd was that he thought Todd was going to die (painfully, by the way).

                              4) Second, in the same conversation, he says if Todd does anything he doesn't like, he's going to just kill him then and there. This is like Rodney saying 'Do this for yourself'. John already put the idea that it's better to die free than be used and beneath someone's heel. Todd constantly asked if John was going to shoot/kill him during their meetings and now he has a promise that he will. Essentially, trust now amounts to death or eternal incarceration and John is deliberately pushing his hand by having taught him which one to choose when given the choice, yet claims to give him the better alternative because he's 'untrustworthy.'

                              5) Third, probably minor in comparison to the previous, John asks for help. The reason he gives for help isn't 'we're pals' or 'freedom' or even 'prison accommodations we'd actually give human prisoners' (shower, better fitting outfit, bed, entertainment, explanation about said outfit), but spite. He says he'll probably shoot Todd whether he helps him or not, so it doesn't matter what he does, save for one will get a betraying wraith shot and him shot and the other will just result in his own death.

                              Man, imagine if this was America's policy toward general diplomacy.
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                                #90
                                Originally posted by WraithRichard View Post
                                Personally, I think most of what happened to Todd was intentional and was supposed to eventually lead to him showing Sheppard what humanity has been showing itself to be and that they are new to the Galaxy, not people who have truly suffered at the hands of the wraith or know of what the wraith have been through.
                                I don't think this was intentional at all from the TPTB because JM stated in his blog? that the SGA characters were flawless heroes. *cough* EXCUSE ME?

                                No, I think the reason we saw those scenes was just sloppy, inconsistent writing. TPTB needed to go the plot the way they wanted and therefore Shepp and Todd behaved either that or this way.
                                Blue is such a nice color, especially if you have wings.

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