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    #31
    Yup, Todd got screwed over, just like everyone else who has ever dealt with Atlantis.
    My heart beats in 13/8.

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      #32
      Originally posted by Sparrow_hawk View Post
      I will be interested in seeing whether or not Sheppard's preview of the future in TLM has an impact on how he treats Todd if and when their paths cross again.
      If Sheppard remembers. He was out of it when he came through the door and may have not heard the end of Rodneys story. If that happens we'll have to go and smack tptb.
      If he does remember he should be a lot more trusting of Todd. Unless he's just a git.
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      FOR MY HIVE AND MY HIVE ALONE

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        #33
        Don't forget that the Atlantians are just as much a product of the Pegasus Galaxy as the Wraith and their human herds.

        They came into this strange new land with eyes wide open and their defenses down. They trusted the first batch of humans they came across, who told them all sorts of horror stories about life in Pegasus. Having a bunch of their people kidnapped and fed upon probably didn't help matters at all.

        Subsequent mettings with the Wraith all through that year were violent, where the Atlantians lost friends and family.

        Then the Genii taught them about backstabbing, tretchery, and Koyla in particular taught them pure human malevolence. The Wraith Queen in Allies certainly didn't help matters.

        After getting burned and burned by the more opportunistic members of Pegasus, the Atlantians started to become what they were dealing with, exemplified in Weir's deliberate double-crossing of the Genii in Coup d'Etat (though the Genii one-upped her by tripple-crossing the Atlantians).

        Subsequent meetings with "other people" (ie: non-Atlantians) had only shown the A-Team that they could only really trust in their own (Lucius Lavin, Oberoth, Niam, Larrin, the Wraith in Allies/No Man's Land, the townspeople in Sateda, etc.)

        In that light, it's not hard to see why the Atlantians have reacted the way they did to Todd and his dealings. Especially Sheppard, whom has always had an extreme "us versus them" mentality.
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          #34
          Originally posted by Cory Holmes
          Don't forget that the Atlantians are just as much a product of the Pegasus Galaxy as the Wraith and their human herds....In that light, it's not hard to see why the Atlantians have reacted the way they did to Todd and his dealings. Especially Sheppard, whom has always had an extreme "us versus them" mentality.
          I agree with what you are saying, and I'm not suggesting that the Lanteans shouldn't have taken precautions...but I do have a problem with them taking him captive right from the get-go. As soon as they did that, they were basically sealing his fate (death by starvation), and they knew it (same fate faced Steve, had he not been poisoned).

          I realize that Shep had told Todd that, if they meet again, 'all bets are off' - but still, I think taking Todd captive was a bit extreme, considering that Todd had willingly contacted them in the first place. Of course, they did what they did to progress storylines throughout the season, but it still seemed a bit heavy-handed to start off the way they did. Once they took that first, aggressive step, well...Todd's treatment at their hands just went downhill...until Shep ordered up Todd some nice, hot take-out!

          Speaking of Todd's meal...I'm a bit surprised how they did it. I would think that it would have been more appropriate to transfer Todd to a cell (something like they did with Steve), and have him feed there, in privacy - not so much for Todd's sake, but to show a little respect for Wallace. Unless, of course, the only ones in the lab at the time were Sheppard, and a couple of guards (but there was that overhead control room, with guards watching, too). The medical personnel who removed the body may have been let in after Todd was done feeding...I suppose that's possible. But still...seems the guy had quite an audience there to witness his death. Just seems a tad morbid.

          Also makes me wonder why Todd was still in the lab, and not in the infirmary, or in a cell. What did they do after he passed out - just leave him on the floor? Or was he able to get up and sit in a chair, or something? They don't show it - but it still makes me wonder if they just left the guy on the floor while Rodney talked to Shep, and Shep to Wallace.

          Hmmmmm....

          das
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            #35
            Todd is a strategist. i think not that he is a "big friend" of the Humans but he is loyal to Sheppard and McKay. Why? McKay and Todd have the same "Job" I think... But Todd is also Commander and Leader from some Wraith.
            He is "brother" to Seppard because he give him (Todd) the "life" back... More Hope to live, McKay did it also in the Episode Millers Crossing. The Only difference is that Todd is a Wraith and need humans as food. The only one who don´t trust Todd is Ronon. But Ronon is a native fighter, he don´t forget what happened on Sateda and his wife. Now the lanteeans (Human) and Wraith have a new enemy and this is a Ex Wraith and hmmm how can I say it a ex human?? We know him as Michael.... He was raped from the human and the Wraith Queen say to him you smell as human. Now he hate both because Teyla told lies, Sheppard told lies and so on. The Wraith don´t want him because I think that the Wraith see in him a looser and a spy?!
            Todd want save the human because we know Humans are food for Wraith.....

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              #36
              Originally posted by Degilwen
              Todd want save the human because we know Humans are food for Wraith.....
              That Todd. Thinking with his 'stomach' again!

              I hope that Michael makes the Lanteans rethink - not just Todd - but the Wraith as a whole. The Wraith at least managed their 'human herds' - but Michael is just wiping everyone out, or transforming them into one of his zombie-fied hybrids.

              Makes the Wraith look like a bunch'a pussycats, actually.


              das
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                #37
                Originally posted by dasNdanger View Post
                Speaking of Todd's meal...I'm a bit surprised how they did it. I would think that it would have been more appropriate to transfer Todd to a cell (something like they did with Steve), and have him feed there, in privacy - not so much for Todd's sake, but to show a little respect for Wallace. Unless, of course, the only ones in the lab at the time were Sheppard, and a couple of guards (but there was that overhead control room, with guards watching, too). The medical personnel who removed the body may have been let in after Todd was done feeding...I suppose that's possible. But still...seems the guy had quite an audience there to witness his death. Just seems a tad morbid.

                Also makes me wonder why Todd was still in the lab, and not in the infirmary, or in a cell. What did they do after he passed out - just leave him on the floor? Or was he able to get up and sit in a chair, or something? They don't show it - but it still makes me wonder if they just left the guy on the floor while Rodney talked to Shep, and Shep to Wallace.

                Hmmmmm....

                das
                It's entierly probably that Sheppard ordered the marines and guards to clear the room, leaving only him, Wallace, and Todd together. It's also possible that he joined the guards outside to let Todd to eat in peace. Let's face it, Todd isn't the type to do well at a black-tie dinner party


                Also, as you yourself pointed out, Sheppard learned from Todd that the Wraith are literal slaves to their hunger and can't really control it. What if they'd let Todd have free reign of the city during their first meeting and he got hungry? Whom would they have sacraficed to preseve Todd's ever-so-vulnerable feelings?

                It wasn't nice, pretty, or kind, but Sheppard knew that Todd could only be trusted so far, if only based on his biological need to feed.
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                  #38
                  Originally posted by Cory Holmes
                  It's entierly probably that Sheppard ordered the marines and guards to clear the room, leaving only him, Wallace, and Todd together. It's also possible that he joined the guards outside to let Todd to eat in peace. Let's face it, Todd isn't the type to do well at a black-tie dinner party


                  Isn't THAT the truth...I can just see it now *pictures the buffet scene from Outcast...flashback, alternative timeline...*

                  Ronon: "This is free, right?"

                  Guest: "Yes, it's free."

                  Todd (Grabs guest, and starts feeding on her): "AAaaahhhHHAAAAaaaaaAAHHHhhh!!!"

                  Ronon (approaching Shep, licking fingers): "Lots of food over there." *gestures over shoulder* Just not sure we should'a brought that guy along...he's makin' a scene...again."

                  Shep: "Yeah, he tends to do that. I think it's because he eats with his fingers..." *glares at Ronon, then sees ex-wife approaching and frowns* "I told you I had an ex-wife, right?"

                  Ronon: "Yeah, why?"

                  Shep: "Here she comes..."

                  Ronon: "Huh. Where's Todd when you need him, right?"

                  Shep: "Yup. Exactly what I was thinking..."

                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                  Ah yes, it could be fun!

                  I'm sure there were guards there - and Sheppard. Just the look on Sheppard's face indicates he witnessed the feeding. Todd wouldn't care - but like I said, out of respect for Wallace I'd think they'd give him a little privacy. It's likely the medical personnel were there, too...perhaps to wheel Wallace in (if he was sedated), and, of course, to remove him afterwards(they could've been asked to wait outside until it was over, though).

                  If they were all there, I would just have liked to see some of their reactions to it...I think it would have made the moment a bit more...unnerving.

                  Also, as you yourself pointed out, Sheppard learned from Todd that the Wraith are literal slaves to their hunger and can't really control it. What if they'd let Todd have free reign of the city during their first meeting and he got hungry? Whom would they have sacraficed to preseve Todd's ever-so-vulnerable feelings?

                  It wasn't nice, pretty, or kind, but Sheppard knew that Todd could only be trusted so far, if only based on his biological need to feed.

                  As far as keeping Todd under guard...THAT I understand. He took out 6 Genii guards all by his onesies - I certainly wouldn't want the guy running around free, either. BUT, they shouldn't have brought him to Atlantis in the first place - they should have listened to his proposal on neutral ground (as he wanted), and then decided whether or not to work with him. If they decided not to, then they'd each go their separate ways, no harm done. If they did decide to work together, then there would have had to be some sort of 'understanding' that would have allowed for 1. the existance of Atlantis to remain secret, and 2. Todd to have the freedom to feed.

                  Best scenario would have been for the Daedalus to be brought in, and all the work be done between that ship and the hive, in a neutral location.

                  Thing is, they didn't do it that way. They brought Todd to Atlantis, and opened up a can of worms by doing so. Now, with Todd's hive in orbit, he probably DID have the ability to feed. Surely his hive had humans in storage, and if he got a bit peckish, I assume he'd be able to request leave to go to his ship (for whatever reason - CERTAINLY not to tell them he was going there to feed). I believe that is one thing he did in BAMSR, when he went back to a hive to negotiate with the Wraith about joining in the battle. I think it's the main reason he (yes, I say 'he') had the team stunned - he didn't want them tagging along while he took this opportunity to feed. I think that's the 'anything else happen while we were unconscious' probabilty that Todd wisely chose not to reveal.

                  Going back to The Seer, once his hive was destroyed, Todd was trapped. Now, I don't blame the Lanteans for the loss of Todd's hive - that was out of their control. But I do blame them for getting Todd into that situation in the first place by taking him captive. His original plan may have simply been to exchange information, and go on his way. Of course, we have no way of telling this - or knowing what was going on in the writer's minds as they created this situation. Point is, as soon as he was taken captive, his plans changed, too. I'm sure he didn't want to stick around there too long, knowing that sooner or later he'd need food. And once his hive was destroyed, well...he was as good as dead, too.

                  In Miller's Crossing, Rodney basically told Todd they had no intention of letting him go because he knew about Atlantis (something he wouldn't know about had they NOT BROUGHT HIM THERE!! DOH!! Boneheads. ) And until his little fainting spell, they had no intention of feeding him, either. And the only reason Shep found a way to feed him was because he knew Rodney was desperate and would offer himself, and that Todd wouldn't 'settle for just one drop of water'.

                  So, in summary, my main argument is that they shouldn't have taken Todd captive in the first place. That was a very Wraithy thing to do...they basically treated him like the Wraith treated the Lanteans in Alllies. Double-crossed him befiore he could double-cross them - even if he had no intention of doing so. By taking him captive, it lead to a difficult situation that would, had not fate intervened, led to Todd's death by starvation. When they nabbed him, they were doing so knowing that it would probably mean his death.

                  And this by the same guys who were questioning the ethics of sending 'Fran' to her 'death', and she was only a freakin' machine.

                  I'm gonna shut up now, before I get started on THAT....

                  das
                  Last edited by dasNdanger; March 10, 2008, 10:47 AM.
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                    #39
                    I agree with you das, but I don't think it was that bad for todd. sheppard had no reason to take him captive, but look at what todd gained from it...

                    by being on atlantis and informing the lanteans that human worlds were being destroyed, it led to destruction of the replicators, thereby preserving the wraith food source and ending the wraith-replicator war.

                    todd was "persuaded" to create a program to save rodney's sister. so, between then and BAMSR, todd was brought to earth, had a meal to sustain him, information on atlantis/earth from rodney's computers, and secured his freedom by rallying the hives.

                    if todd hadn't been captive, atlantis wouldn't have been monitoring his tracking device. if sheppard's team hadn't followed the signal and found todd, who knows what might've happened to him.

                    all in all, todd saved his food source, ended a war, got fed, information, and then his freedom. not bad for a couple weeks as a captive. if todd hadn't been captive, wraith would probably still be in war with the replicators/losing their food supply, and todd wouldn't have the info on atlantis as a bonus. maybe todd didn't have the best prospect/treatment, but I'd say it was pretty beneficial to him.

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                      #40
                      Originally posted by naamiaiset
                      I agree with you das, but I don't think it was that bad for todd. sheppard had no reason to take him captive, but look at what todd gained from it...

                      by being on atlantis and informing the lanteans that human worlds were being destroyed, it led to destruction of the replicators, thereby preserving the wraith food source and ending the wraith-replicator war.

                      todd was "persuaded" to create a program to save rodney's sister. so, between then and BAMSR, todd was brought to earth, had a meal to sustain him, information on atlantis/earth from rodney's computers, and secured his freedom by rallying the hives.

                      if todd hadn't been captive, atlantis wouldn't have been monitoring his tracking device. if sheppard's team hadn't followed the signal and found todd, who knows what might've happened to him.

                      all in all, todd saved his food source, ended a war, got fed, information, and then his freedom. not bad for a couple weeks as a captive. if todd hadn't been captive, wraith would probably still be in war with the replicators/losing their food supply, and todd wouldn't have the info on atlantis as a bonus. maybe todd didn't have the best prospect/treatment, but I'd say it was pretty beneficial to him.

                      Good points. Yes, Todd did gain much...BUT...only because he had a chance to feed. Had the situation with Wallace not come up, Todd would be dead by now, unless Sheppard felt guilty and set him free.

                      Of course, I think Chris said in his interview that Todd is willing to risk all to gain all...so, Todd did take a huge risk by contacting the Lanteans - he risked his freedom. So...in that light, it could be said that Todd knew EXACTLY what he was getting himself into, and took the risk anyway, hoping there would be both a good payoff, and a way out of it for him in the end, and there was...

                      That moment came when the Lanteans agreed to let him go to the hive to negotiate. GOTTA love his sly little smile. He had endured much - risked 'all', as it were - to gain the Lanteans trust and much more. In this case, the reward was a chance to destroy the Replicators (thus saving his food supply and perhaps gaining him status among Wraith) and, of course, gaining his freedom. He also probably felt that he had the Lanteans in his pocket, and - if they hadn't found out about him taking the Midway info (which he may not have used for months or years, if ever) - they'd be more than willing to help him out again in the future. Probably why he felt he could summons Sheppard when he got into his next jam at the cloning facility.

                      It is all a bit of a chess match right now, and you just don't know who's gonna make the next move, and whether or not that move will put the other in checkmate.

                      I just hope they use him effectively throughout S5 - even if not a LOT...at least a little, and in quality appearances, just like we had in TLM.


                      das
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                        #41
                        Originally posted by Cory Holmes View Post
                        **** it's not hard to see why the Atlantians have reacted the way they did to Todd and his dealings. Especially Sheppard, whom has always had an extreme "us versus them" mentality.
                        Much of the discussion so far has been analyzing the past actions of the SGA Expedition, but I'd like to open some speculation on the future of Wraith relations.

                        From reading the Gateworld home page, I know that there are changes planned for the leadership of Atlantis. Just in case you don’t want to know about it, I’ll put this part of my comments behind a spoiler tag.

                        Spoiler:
                        Samantha Carter will be leaving Atlantis and will be replaced by Woolsey. I can’t help wondering what it means for Atlantis in general and, being the Wraith fan that I am, for the team’s relationship with Todd. Woolsey met Todd in The Seer. He was not amused by Todd’s little “Wraith humor” handshake offer. In fact, he was strongly opposed to the temporary alliance. I can’t imagine that he is going to agree to let them work with a Wraith again.

                        With the change in leadership and increasing influence of the IOA, the SGA Expedition may be forced to re-evaluate their activities in the Pegasus Galaxy. It seems to me that the Expedition is only in the PG because Atlantis happens to be there and their main purpose in exploring the other worlds there is to find ZPMs to power Atlantis. They don’t give a darn about making contacts with other people there unless they have a ZPM they are willing to hand over to the SGA; or unless they happen to be willing to act as allies when the Lanteans get themselves into trouble.

                        They have successfully countered assaults on Atlantis by the Wraith and Replicators, and now Michael’s hybrids are becoming an increasing threat to the Galaxy, but not necessarily to Atlantis. Is the IOA interested in helping to defend the other humans in the PG or will they demand that their forces be pulled back and concentrate on Atlantis alone, as suggested in The Last Man ’s alternate timeline? Will that "us vs them" mentality become more widespread?

                        The Wraith don’t seem to go in for centralized government and bureaucracy so maybe with their new leadership, the Lanteans are going to become less Wraith-like. Not really a change for the better, if you ask me.

                        Any thoughts? I’m curious as to what other people think about this.
                        Sparrow hawk

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                          #42
                          That is a good point. From what we have already seen of how the IOA works, they could not give a hoot what happens to the rest of the galaxy, so i do see us pulling back. And imo this would be worse than the current ways..

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                            #43
                            here's a solution: let todd eat woolsey.

                            I think atlantis' relationships with other people/lifeforms (wraith, todd specifically) in pegasus will noticeably diminish or not exist at all once woolsey is in command. atlantis can't take on the whole universe, no matter what it seems like sometimes.

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                              #44
                              Originally posted by Sparrow_hawk
                              Much of the discussion so far has been analyzing the past actions of the SGA Expedition, but I'd like to open some speculation on the future of Wraith relations.

                              From reading the Gateworld home page, I know that there are changes planned for the leadership of Atlantis. Just in case you don’t want to know about it, I’ll put this part of my comments behind a spoiler tag.

                              Spoiler:
                              Samantha Carter will be leaving Atlantis and will be replaced by Woolsey. I can’t help wondering what it means for Atlantis in general and, being the Wraith fan that I am, for the team’s relationship with Todd. Woolsey met Todd in The Seer. He was not amused by Todd’s little “Wraith humor” handshake offer. In fact, he was strongly opposed to the temporary alliance. I can’t imagine that he is going to agree to let them work with a Wraith again.

                              With the change in leadership and increasing influence of the IOA, the SGA Expedition may be forced to re-evaluate their activities in the Pegasus Galaxy. It seems to me that the Expedition is only in the PG because Atlantis happens to be there and their main purpose in exploring the other worlds there is to find ZPMs to power Atlantis. They don’t give a darn about making contacts with other people there unless they have a ZPM they are willing to hand over to the SGA; or unless they happen to be willing to act as allies when the Lanteans get themselves into trouble.

                              They have successfully countered assaults on Atlantis by the Wraith and Replicators, and now Michael’s hybrids are becoming an increasing threat to the Galaxy, but not necessarily to Atlantis. Is the IOA interested in helping to defend the other humans in the PG or will they demand that their forces be pulled back and concentrate on Atlantis alone, as suggested in The Last Man ’s alternate timeline? Will that "us vs them" mentality become more widespread?

                              The Wraith don’t seem to go in for centralized government and bureaucracy so maybe with their new leadership, the Lanteans are going to become less Wraith-like. Not really a change for the better, if you ask me.

                              Any thoughts? I’m curious as to what other people think about this.
                              Oh, my...yeah. You might be right - at least, in the beginning. The only thing about Woolsey is that he has, in the past, shown an ability to let others make the decision, then 'fudge the books' afterwards. What I mean is that - although he is what he is, and a bit rigid and foolish - he has been known to bend the rules. So, it may be that Sheppard becomes the master, and Woolsey, the puppet. The one who frightens me more is Caldwell...he's very hardnose, and quick to react in HIS way.

                              The rest I'll hide:
                              Spoiler:

                              But - depending on where the stories are going next season (and the budget ), it could be that less attention is given to alliances (that was the theme of S4 - they might not want to carry that over too much or it might get stale), and more about building Atlantis up to be a military base and force.

                              Here's a thought...

                              In The Seer, Sam sees a vision of the Replicators attacking Atlantis. Well - we *think* it's the Replicators because of the ship. Could it be 'Weir', or even the Travellers? Not sure whether or not we ever had a resolution to that vision (I haven't seen This Mortal Coil yet, so not sure if it was addressed there, or not), but it could mean that a pulling back to defend the city will be the major theme of S5 (afterall, we don't know what will happen with Michael yet, either) - and maybe the S5 finale will involve yet another attack on Atlantis, but this time by someone who hasn't tried yet (We've already had Wraith, Genii and Replicators - so that leaves 'Weir's' group - if they bring her back, Michael, the Travellers, and ...well...anyone else who the Lanteans decide to piss off during the season.


                              Originally posted by naamiaiset
                              here's a solution: let todd eat woolsey.



                              das
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                                #45
                                Originally posted by dasNdanger View Post
                                Oh, my...yeah. You might be right - at least, in the beginning. The only thing about Woolsey is that he has, in the past, shown an ability to let others make the decision, then 'fudge the books' afterwards. What I mean is that - although he is what he is, and a bit rigid and foolish - he has been known to bend the rules. So, it may be that Sheppard becomes the master, and Woolsey, the puppet. The one who frightens me more is Caldwell...he's very hardnose, and quick to react in HIS way.

                                The rest I'll hide:
                                Spoiler:

                                But - depending on where the stories are going next season (and the budget ), it could be that less attention is given to alliances (that was the theme of S4 - they might not want to carry that over too much or it might get stale), and more about building Atlantis up to be a military base and force.

                                Here's a thought...

                                In The Seer, Sam sees a vision of the Replicators attacking Atlantis. Well - we *think* it's the Replicators because of the ship. Could it be 'Weir', or even the Travellers? Not sure whether or not we ever had a resolution to that vision (I haven't seen This Mortal Coil yet, so not sure if it was addressed there, or not), but it could mean that a pulling back to defend the city will be the major theme of S5 (afterall, we don't know what will happen with Michael yet, either) - and maybe the S5 finale will involve yet another attack on Atlantis, but this time by someone who hasn't tried yet (We've already had Wraith, Genii and Replicators - so that leaves 'Weir's' group - if they bring her back, Michael, the Travellers, and ...well...anyone else who the Lanteans decide to piss off during the season.
                                Actually
                                Spoiler:
                                the "destruction of Atlantis" scene does come up in This Mortal Coil so that vision has been accounted for, too.


                                They still have to find a way to deal with Michael and his hybrids. I wonder, will the hybrids revert to nice guys once Michael is gone? Kind of like in the Wizard of Oz, Dorothy kills the Wicked Witch of the West and suddenly the WW's troopers are all friendly. Will the hybrids all go down on one knee and cry "Hail Teyla, the wicked ol' Wraith is dead!"?

                                Once that is resolved, Rodney and some of the scientists may be content to withdraw into Atlantis and see what new toys they can get operational. But I don't think Sheppard, Ronon and Teyla will be happy spending their time on guard duty or running around on endless missions to look for ZPMs.
                                I can't see Sheppard manipulating Woolsey, but I can sure see him ignoring his orders and doing things the way he wants to.

                                Woolsey has shows that he can bend the rules at least a little in The Seer, so there is still some hope. It will be interesting to see how that character develops, since I think that the direction his character takes and the future of Atlantis and its relationships with everyone in the PG are closely linked.
                                Last edited by Sparrow_hawk; March 12, 2008, 08:03 PM. Reason: compete a thought
                                Sparrow hawk

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