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Lanteans: Out-Wraithing the Wraith

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    #16
    Originally posted by dasNdanger:
    I'm struck by how Wraith-like the Lanteans really are, and wonder how long it will be before their actions and attitudes come back to haunt them.
    Originally posted by StarOcean View Post
    It already is, I think. You got Michael, Asurans, hybrids, and Hoff plague. I'm waiting for them to lose their Athosians allies somehow. I think SGC and IOA would prefer that the Team lose them. Who else have the Atlantis screwed over?
    I agree. The Lanteans are already beginning to reap what they have sown.

    I'd love to reply to more of your post, but it's late and I have already talked too much in responding to Icarium, so I'll hold off saying more right now.
    Last edited by Sparrow_hawk; March 6, 2008, 07:32 PM. Reason: Add quote from opening post
    Sparrow hawk

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      #17
      Just a quick comment.

      Very good thoughts everyone. I'm kinda burned out tonight, but hope to get to reply to this tomorrow sometime...

      And SH - I like your ideas about Rodney - you're right, he did appeal to Todd on a personal level...perhaps they made a connection there?

      Lots for me to think about...thanks!

      das
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        #18
        Icarium wrote... I'm sorry if what I wrote sounds harsh. It doesn't mean that I dislike the show or the characters. I know that they have many other advantages. It's just their attitude to other cultures and races that makes me angry. They should work on it as it's the main cause for all the trouble they are in.
        Originally posted by Sparrow_hawk View Post
        It isn't harsh at all. You raise some excellent points. The Lanteans have treated the people of many worlds they have visited badly. They seem to think that they know what is best for everyone else and, as far as we have seen, seldom deal with any other people as equals.
        *sigh* You know, if I think about Atlantis and her people too much, I start remembering that the characters lack an awareness in regards to decency. They're very self-centered. And inconsistent. And foolish. And this reflects on the writers. Which reminds me that the show isn't all that great.

        Which reminds me that I don't actually find the characters likable as they are. It's through a whole bunch of tilting and filling in the blanks and making up defenses that I've tricked myself to enjoying the characters because I'm assuming that's what the writers are going for. What's shown onscreen isn't telling it though. Unfortunately.

        What's my point in the relation to this thread? I can totally agree with dasNdanger's analysis. Along with mine, Icarium, Sparrow_hawk, etc. I can also disagree. Because it usually falls apart when I look at it too long. I forget where my argument is coming from and which version of the characters I'm using. And because the characterizations and writing aren't that great. So forgive me if my arguments seem contradictory.

        Which is kinda depressing. Because that means the problems with the characters are actually creepy, insidious issues that might be innate within the writers and that they themselves are not self-aware enough to pick it up when they see it in their scripts. (Ie, the treatment of a pregnant Teyla)

        And that's my caveat to everything. (I really am only watching for Todd.) In the meanwhile, I have to keep reminding myself to be really shallow when I watch.

        But it's frustrating when something icky pops up.

        Argh! *waves hands wildly about* To be concise: I've got conflicting feelings. *headdesk*

        Originally posted by Icarium View Post
        They would do anything just to prove that they're 'good guys'. What do they think they are? Masters of the Universe?
        That's the problem. They think they're the good guys, so everything and anything they do is right. It doesn't matter it they act like jerks or other people get hurt. They're the good guys. And I think the writers believe this too. So there's no objectivity to the characters' actions and little chance of us seeing the characters change.

        Which is part of the reason why Todd is so great. A side-effect (one that I don't think the writers are aware of so that they can utilize Todd more) of his character is that he's on the outside and has an observing view of how the Expedition affects the rest of the galaxy. This SHOULD be Teyla's job because she's the one who knows the galaxy and the people. She should also be the one showing the Taur'i how their actions look to the natives. But the show doesn't use her much.

        On another note, if they want to be such do-gooders, why haven't they offered to relocate the natives to the Milky Way?

        Living in Atlantis seems to have a deleterious effect on the occupant's ego. The Ancients became arrogant and overconfident and it led to their fall when the Wraith became advanced enough to challenge them. Now the SGA expedition is suffering from the same arrogance. They seem to believe that being more technologically advanced makes them superior.
        I think that's true. If I remember correctly, Weir was willing to let soldiers die defending Atlantis in an oncoming battle that they would lose while the scientists copied the knowledge in the Atlantis database. To this day, I wonder why they haven't been busy porting the information to Earth, in the event Atlantis is destroyed. More recently, the lack of an iris on the Midway stargate was because Mckay was being arrogant.

        And I dislike that school of thought. That being technologically advance means the civilization is advance in thinking. It's even more annoying to see that the SGA crew think that way when you realize that their technology is either given to them or found. They didn't actually make it themselves. Ugh.

        While he was making his appeal for Todd's help, he began to put himself in Todd's place, to see things from Todd's perspective. He realized that Todd had suffered a horrible loss when his hive was destroyed and showed Todd some compassion; no one else in Atlantis had showed the least concern for him before that. From that point on, Rodney treated Todd as a colleague and an equal. Rodney even says later, referring to Todd in Spoils of War: "That's our old friend, the Wraith that helped me save Jeanie and got us all those hive ships."
        I've got conflicting feelings to that part. On one hand, I agree with you and cheered for Rodney's change of heart. That's Rodney willing to believe that Todd is acting as an ally and will trust him on that.

        On the other hand, Rodney's reaction doesn't make sense. He got Todd to help by appealing to his ability, not to his compassion, and after acknowledging that Todd was likely to die with them. Why would Rodney trust Todd when the help was not received out of trust or alliance? He essentially told Todd that Todd was going to die, so he might as well make the remaining time he had left to make some sort of impact in the Replicator-Wraith war. I can only make-believe that Rodney decided to treat Todd as an colleague to make the rest of his time "comfortable." Like showing a dying person some compassion.

        It's really too bad that Sheppard wouldn't trust Todd. Because the foundation of trust between Rodney and Todd did not come out of a bonding situation. I'm wondering if the reason why Todd's info stealing happened is because 1) they wanted Sheppard to be right and 2) they really needed Midway gone. Todd was convenient to use as the background plot device.

        And I was going to post a reply to dasNdanger's opening, but I'm too negative on the Expedition right now. I think I'm going to wait for The Last Man to air first.

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          #19
          Originally posted by Sparrow_hawk View Post
          But I think there is still some hope for them. I thought about the "turning point" das mentioned in her opening post and I realized that the incident in Miller's Crossing was also a turning point for Rodney. While he was making his appeal for Todd's help, he began to put himself in Todd's place, to see things from Todd's perspective. He realized that Todd had suffered a horrible loss when his hive was destroyed and showed Todd some compassion; no one else in Atlantis had showed the least concern for him before that. From that point on, Rodney treated Todd as a colleague and an equal. Rodney even says later, referring to Todd in Spoils of War: "That's our old friend, the Wraith that helped me save Jeanie and got us all those hive ships."
          Hmm, I think you're right about that. McKay really consideres Todd his friend now, or at least to some extend. Now that you mention SoW, I liked even more the scene when McKay was happy because Todd wasn't captured He honestly believed Todd was going to rescue them

          Michael once had Teyla but she failed as a friend. Will McKay let Todd down?

          Originally posted by StarOcean View Post
          And I was going to post a reply to dasNdanger's opening, but I'm too negative on the Expedition right now.
          Ooops, what have I done?!

          Icarium

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            #20
            Originally posted by dasNdanger View Post
            After re-watching all of Todd's episodes, I’m struck by how Wraith-like the Lanteans really are, and wonder how long it will be before their actions and attitudes come back to haunt them.

            Todd's experience is a perfect example of what I mean. We are introduced to him as a character who has given up on life...but then has his hope restored, only to be disillusioned, and eventually encouraged to look out only for himself. And who encourages him to do so? A Lantean...yes, a Lantean teaches a Wraith how to be a Wraith. Go figger.

            Follow me through the first three Todd episodes, and you'll see what I mean...

            COMMON GROUND

            1. We learn for Wraith, hunger burns inside. This isn’t something they can control, but part of their nature. They must feed in order to live. This establishes that all they do is motivated by a basic instinct to survive.

            2. Todd has been in prison so long, he's given up on life. He shows admiration for Sheppard - his strength, his determination to escape. He pays Sheppard the highest honor possible: he compares Sheppard to Wraith. This takes humility on Todd’s part to elevate someone from the ‘human herd’ to his own, superior level...to even go as far as suggesting he's a 'brother'.

            3. Todd proves himself to be a Wraith of his word, a Wraith of honor. He helps Sheppard escape, then encourages Sheppard to go on without him because he’s too weak. Todd was willing to die there, just so Sheppard had a chance to survive.

            4. Despite being ravaged by starvation, Todd has control over his feeding. He hesitates before feeding the second time, and stops himself the third. He also doesn't take Sheppard's life the last time he feeds (though he certainly could have), but instead uses the strength he gains to save them both, then he goes as far as giving Sheppard back the years he took. He did NOT have to do this – but he feels an obligation to 'repay the debt' - something we previously thought the Wraith incapable of doing.

            In this episode Todd proves that - despite their aggressive, superior nature – Wraith are capable of altruistic deeds. We also get a sense that Todd is truly awed by what Sheppard has done for him, for the trust he was willing to show - and for the hope he restored in him.


            THE SEER

            1. Todd - perhaps still believing there is a bond of trust between them - desires to meet with Sheppard on neutral ground, but instead he’s taken in and held as a prisoner.

            2. Todd shows humility once again by asking the humans for help, and shows trust in coming to them in the first place, and sharing his data. On the other hand, Sheppard schemes to play along, with the idea of shooting Todd's hive out of the sky once they get what they need. Not once - but twice - he suggests double-crossing Todd. Nasty business, that.

            3. Todd is kept chained in the lab, or caged. When he holds back part of the virus, the Lanteans get testy. Todd explains that he had to do it because he had no guarantee that the humans wouldn’t double-cross him once they got what they wanted (which was Sheppard’s idea all along). Of course, Sheppard takes offense at the idea, the little weasel that he is.

            This indicates that Todd knew much about human nature, and how closely it resembled Wraith – he foresaw his capture (tracking device), as well as a double-cross (withholding part of the virus). But nothing Todd did indicated that HE intended to betray the humans. Instead, it was all the other way around. The Lanteans were actually out-Wraithing the Wraith.

            4. After Todd's hive is destroyed, Todd appeals for Sheppard's trust, and he's denied it. Instead, he's pushed by the guards towards the lab - his treatment perhaps no better than what he experienced at the hands of the Genii. Up to this point he seems to truly believe there’s a bond of trust between himself and Sheppard, and though he took precautions to ensure his survival, he also took a great risk by putting his life in the hands of the Lanteans, and now he’s been burned by it.

            MILLER'S CROSSING

            1. The episode starts with Rodney saying that they didn't need the Wraith's help, and that he wouldn't help them anyway. This suggests that something major changed after Todd's hive was destroyed. Did he stop helping because he was being held prisoner, with no chance of freedom, or did he stop because he was getting too weak - and miserable - due to hunger and fatigue?

            2. He's brought in – staggering and chained like an animal - to help with Rodney's sister. He has no prospects of ever feeding again, he's facing death by starvation, and yet the Lanteans continue to expect him to work like some sort of slave. At least with the Genii he was allowed to feed on the occasional prisoner (‘no one has ever left this place alive’), but with the Lanteans, he had no such hope. The masters may have changed, but Todd was still a prisoner, and the Lanteans were proving themselves no better than the Genii.

            3. Rodney's appeal to Todd. To me, this is the turning point for Todd. He is totally disillusioned by the Lanteans – they are no different than Wraith. I believe this is where Todd puts aside any altruistic inclinations he may have had, and starts to once again think about himself. He had already shown himself trustworthy, but to no avail – there was nothing more he could do to prove his honor - Rodney even recognizes this. So, instead, Rodney appeals to Todd's sense of family - first boring him, and then touching a nerve when he mentions the lost hive - then he makes his appeal: "Do this for yourself - do this because you know you can."

            That may have been the most dangerous idea ever to put into Todd's head. Whereas Sheppard gave him hope in that Genii prison, Rodney gave him the key to unlocking the human chains that bound him.

            From here on out, Todd is a changed Wraith.

            He is starving, he needs to feed…and the humans aren’t going to provide him with a meal. And Rodney already told him that they wouldn’t let him go because he knew about Atlantis. So, it’s very possible that he collapsed on purpose before finishing the programming. The programming was his ONLY leverage for a meal – finish it, and he’d be as good as dead. But collapse BEFORE it’s done, when he’s still very much needed…appeal to the humans’ sense of compassion…and see what happens.

            And what happened? He got fed. I truly believe he may have manipulated the humans here – and rightly so. They certainly would NOT have fed him afterwards.

            Remember what Sheppard said to him in prison? ‘Are they gonna let you go after I’m dead?’ Todd’s not a dumb Wraith – he knew without leverage, he was as good as dead. So, better to use his hunger to his advantage BEFORE he’s done the coding, then afterwards when he’d have nothing to ‘bargain’ with.

            Todd has gone from hopeless, to hopeful, to disillusioned, to self-serving. He has gained more control over his situations, now manipulating humans to do what he wants, instead of the other way around. AND he certainly seems to enjoy the game – perhaps it’s even more enjoyable to him than hunting down the occasional runner for sport. This is chess at its highest, most complex level. He talks his way out of his chains and back onto a hive, he breezes over the reasons Shep & Co. were stunned, he gets the Lanteans to rescue him from the cloning facility, he again breezes over the fact that he stole the Midway information, and he talks them into giving up their research on the Hoffan drug. All of this happened after Rodney’s little pep talk.

            I wonder if the Lanteans refusal to trust Todd, as they refused to trust Michael, will come back to haunt them. Have they created yet another monster to contend with in the future? I’m sure Rodney’s words to "do this for yourself - do this because you know you can" continue to ring loud and clear in his ears, spurring him on, encouraging him to try to beat the humans at their very own Wraith-like game.


            das
            In Be All My Sin's Remember'd it seemed that Sheppard had grown to be able to trust Todd. Todd protected them from becoming Wraith bait when they were aboard the hive ship. He wasn't in chains at all after that.
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              #21
              Originally posted by rarocks24 View Post
              In Be All My Sin's Remember'd it seemed that Sheppard had grown to be able to trust Todd. Todd protected them from becoming Wraith bait when they were aboard the hive ship. He wasn't in chains at all after that.
              It only showed that Sheppard can play nice when he wants something from Todd. Todd was at the moment an ally and was needed. Shepperd agreed to untie Todd only for that reason. Earlier, Shep made sure Todd knows who's in charge: 'first sign you cross us...'
              What Todd conclusion could be? They need me - they are nice, they don't - they deprive me of any dignity (cuffs + the way Ronon pushed Todd into his seat and Shep did not react, but started threats instead).

              Icarium

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                #22
                Originally posted by Icarium View Post
                It only showed that Sheppard can play nice when he wants something from Todd. Todd was at the moment an ally and was needed. Shepperd agreed to untie Todd only for that reason. Earlier, Shep made sure Todd knows who's in charge: 'first sign you cross us...'
                What Todd conclusion could be? They need me - they are nice, they don't - they deprive me of any dignity (cuffs + the way Ronon pushed Todd into his seat and Shep did not react, but started threats instead).

                Icarium
                We didn't trust Todd? Todd gave us reason not to trust him, several times. And Midway only reaffirmed that. And letting someone know who's in charge does not = distrust. Merely, it's stating the consequences of violating that trust. As for Ronon pushing Todd into his seat, they had just gotten stunned. Things wouldn't be all that peachy.
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                  #23
                  Originally posted by rarocks24 View Post
                  We didn't trust Todd? Todd gave us reason not to trust him, several times. And Midway only reaffirmed that. And letting someone know who's in charge does not = distrust. Merely, it's stating the consequences of violating that trust. As for Ronon pushing Todd into his seat, they had just gotten stunned. Things wouldn't be all that peachy.
                  OK, I put it wrong in one place. Maybe I shouldn't say 'in charge'. I meant that Todd was already tied and aware of his situation, and still he encountered more threats which weren't really necessary at this point. Ronon pushed Todd BEFORE they got stunned which IMO showed a lot of disrespect. Such behaviour towards Todd (which started long before BAMSR) could convince Todd that he couldn't cooperate with the Lanteans as equals. Which lead to Midway and now they really have a reason for distrust. But I believe that it was not Todd's initial intention to betray the Lanteans, they just lost his respect.

                  Icarium

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                    #24
                    Originally posted by Icarium View Post
                    Was the vaccine really a good reason to treat the Hoffans as criminals? After all, they didn't force the vaccine on anybody. And they paid for it, Michael's actions could have been discovered earlier if the Lanteans didn't just take offence. In Sanctuary they also behaved as if they had a right to whatever weapon they expected to find. They would do anything just to prove that they're 'good guys'. What do they think they are? Masters of the Universe?Icarium
                    Don't forget that planet in condemmed, who had an agreement in place to survive and flourish with the giving of their prisoners to the wraith. We ruined that because we felt it was inhumane. Then you add in the tower, where we basically wanted to overthrow the aristocracy, but we act as bad as that at times with others "give us what we want or we will beat you with our superior tech"..

                    Could it be that the Rodney is really the best of the humans in Atlantis when it comes to dealing with other cultures?
                    That is a messed up thought. The one with the worst imo personal skills, being our best ambassador.

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                      #25
                      The world needs more no nonsense people.

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                        #26
                        Originally posted by rarocks24
                        We didn't trust Todd? Todd gave us reason not to trust him, several times. And Midway only reaffirmed that. And letting someone know who's in charge does not = distrust. Merely, it's stating the consequences of violating that trust. As for Ronon pushing Todd into his seat, they had just gotten stunned. Things wouldn't be all that peachy.
                        You have to go back to The Seer. By all indications, Todd contacted Sheppard in GOOD faith, and wanted to meet on neutral ground. Instead, he's taken captive, and held prisoner. During that time, Sheppard twice suggested taking his Replicator info, and then double-crossing him and killing him. Because of their distrust, Todd loses his hive. The only thing that Todd did 'questionable' was withhold part of the virus information, and he did that to protect himself from being double-crossed, which WAS Sheppard's idea. Then, when he's weak and starving, he's forced to come to earth, and help Rodney's sister. At that point, after Rodney's pep talk to 'do it for himself', Todd changes, and really starts looking out for himself.

                        So, when he first contacts Sheppard, he seems to be doing so on a basis of trust...up until the Lanteans begin treating him as a prisoner. They strip him of his dignity by keeping him in chains, and pushing him around like a common criminal. Wraith are very prideful creatures, so to do this to him must be very humiliating...kinda like putting a pink tutu on a pitbull and walking him down the street for everyone to laugh at. I think Todd was only able to hold his head high because he knew that such precautions meant that the humans were afraid of him, but it still had to be very belittling to him. So, it's no surprise that he starts treating the Lanteans the same way once he gets the upper hand.

                        Interestingly, when Todd woke Sheppard up in the jumper, the first thing he did was give Sheppard a weapon. This was a complete display of trust on Todd's part. He's done a LOT to try to convince the humans he can be trusted, and yet...they refuse to. Maybe they're smart not to, and maybe it gives Todd a bit of a thrill that they are so afraid of him...but still...just seems to me that the Lanteans need to loosen up a bit.

                        das
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                          #27
                          Originally posted by dasNdanger View Post
                          Interestingly, when Todd woke Sheppard up in the jumper, the first thing he did was give Sheppard a weapon. This was a complete display of trust on Todd's part. He's done a LOT to try to convince the humans he can be trusted, and yet...they refuse to. Maybe they're smart not to, and maybe it gives Todd a bit of a thrill that they are so afraid of him...but still...just seems to me that the Lanteans need to loosen up a bit.

                          das
                          I will be interested in seeing whether or not Sheppard's preview of the future in TLM has an impact on how he treats Todd if and when their paths cross again.

                          IMO Sheppard has become one of the most arrogant of the Atlanteans. Maybe it's because doesn't deal well with gray areas. He is a soldier and likes everything to be black and white; good guys and bad guys with no room for anything in between. I understand that he is in charge of the military branch of the SGA and has to be cautious about trusting people, but he can be very callous and sometimes even ruthless in dealing with other cultures.
                          Sparrow hawk

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                            #28
                            Previously posted by Sparrow_hawk
                            Could it be that the Rodney is really the best of the humans in Atlantis when it comes to dealing with other cultures?
                            Originally posted by garhkal View Post
                            That is a messed up thought. The one with the worst imo personal skills, being our best ambassador.
                            That is exactly my point. Scary thought, isn't it?
                            Sparrow hawk

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                              #29
                              Originally posted by dasNdanger View Post
                              You have to go back to The Seer. By all indications, Todd contacted Sheppard in GOOD faith, and wanted to meet on neutral ground. Instead, he's taken captive, and held prisoner. During that time, Sheppard twice suggested taking his Replicator info, and then double-crossing him and killing him. Because of their distrust, Todd loses his hive. The only thing that Todd did 'questionable' was withhold part of the virus information, and he did that to protect himself from being double-crossed, which WAS Sheppard's idea. Then, when he's weak and starving, he's forced to come to earth, and help Rodney's sister. At that point, after Rodney's pep talk to 'do it for himself', Todd changes, and really starts looking out for himself.

                              So, when he first contacts Sheppard, he seems to be doing so on a basis of trust...up until the Lanteans begin treating him as a prisoner. They strip him of his dignity by keeping him in chains, and pushing him around like a common criminal. Wraith are very prideful creatures, so to do this to him must be very humiliating...kinda like putting a pink tutu on a pitbull and walking him down the street for everyone to laugh at. I think Todd was only able to hold his head high because he knew that such precautions meant that the humans were afraid of him, but it still had to be very belittling to him. So, it's no surprise that he starts treating the Lanteans the same way once he gets the upper hand.

                              Interestingly, when Todd woke Sheppard up in the jumper, the first thing he did was give Sheppard a weapon. This was a complete display of trust on Todd's part. He's done a LOT to try to convince the humans he can be trusted, and yet...they refuse to. Maybe they're smart not to, and maybe it gives Todd a bit of a thrill that they are so afraid of him...but still...just seems to me that the Lanteans need to loosen up a bit.

                              das
                              We have no idea about that. Todd came with armed guards. If his intent were to be trustworthy, would you have come with guards? He didn't trust us. Todd couldn't trust us at all so he leaked our location to a hive ship after being brought to Atlantis. He expected it. Yes, Sheppard was planning on double crossing Todd. The truth is, would you have in his place? We've been down this road before (Allies/No Man's Land). Todd was brought to Earth to help fight the Replicators, a common enemy. Although these Replicators aren't a part of the Asurans, they still would have been beneficial to study. Todd even got fed by Sheppard.

                              You're saying we should have treated like a human when he isn't. He's a predator, you don't let predators lose without watching them. Eventually, Todd proved we could take the chains off. I don't think Todd thought they were belittling him, he wouldn't have contacted the Lantians again if he didn't. Todd knew they were taking precautions, and he knew about Ronon's past. Todd was very accepting, perhaps too accepting.

                              Atlantis had been a little loose before with the Wraith, it nearly led to Earth being culled (it wouldn't have either, Earth would have been able to take care of two hives).

                              There was the issue of neither side fully trusting the other side. But their actions were not outside the realm of possibility. And lets not forget, the Wraith were fully prepared to force Sheppard and Mckay to create a virus before Carter arrived and rescued them.

                              As Teyla said, they are Wraith.
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                              The reason you should vote Republican in 2010.

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                                #30
                                Originally posted by rarocks24
                                We have no idea about that. Todd came with armed guards. If his intent were to be trustworthy, would you have come with guards? He didn't trust us.
                                Of course he would. The last time he was surrounded by humans, they were trying to kill him (Genii guards), and then...the Lanteans came upon him fully armed, ready to kill. Oh, yeah - and Sheppard DID shoot him. Of course, it was all good in the end, but all Todd has experienced at the hand of humans is their deep desire to kill him. He's not dumb.

                                So, let's take what Todd said in The Seer at face value. He said he wanted the meeting on 'neutral ground'. We can assume that he desired to meet with Sheppard on the planet, discuss his plan, then for them to each go their separate ways while deciding whether or not to work together. But like I said, Todd is not dumb...he took precautions because he knows that humans kill Wraith out of fear and hatred (Todd, on the other hand, mostly kills out of hunger). So he brought guards with him. It is quite possible that he did NOT intend to allow the guards to show themselves. It IS quite possible that he had them there only as insurance, just in case the humans came armed themselves. And...oh, yeah...they did.

                                There is no indication that Todd planned to take Sheppard off the planet, and imprison him on his ship. This would be counterproductive. Todd needed the humans to trust him - it's the only way they could possibly work together to find a way to defeat the Replicators. So - from what we were shown, Todd simply wanted to meet with Sheppard on neutral ground, discuss his plan, then wait for Sheppard to come back with an answer.

                                But instead, they take Todd captive. Why? There was no reason to do that. They could have had their little chat on the planet, and then let Todd return to his hive. But instead they make him their prisoner. NOT nice.

                                Todd couldn't trust us at all so he leaked our location to a hive ship after being brought to Atlantis. He expected it.
                                He didn't leak anything - he took precautions in case he was captured. He was held prisoner once, with no one to save him...he certainly wouldn't want that to happen again. He foresaw the possibility that Sheppard would cross him (and he did), and so he used a tracking device so his hive could find him. Not sneaky - but smart.

                                Yes, Sheppard was planning on double crossing Todd. The truth is, would you have in his place? We've been down this road before (Allies/No Man's Land).
                                No. All Sheppard had to do was hear out Todd's plan. If he didn't want to work with the guy, all he had to do was say no, and they each would go their separate ways. Instead, he took him captive for no just reason.

                                Todd was brought to Earth to help fight the Replicators, a common enemy. Although these Replicators aren't a part of the Asurans, they still would have been beneficial to study. Todd even got fed by Sheppard.
                                Todd was brought to earth, starving and weak, to save Rodney's sister. Only Rodney - in desperation - was able to appeal to Todd on the basis of doing it 'for himself'. But the INTENTION of the humans was to force Todd - without promise of release or food - to save Rodney's sister. And the only reason Todd got fed was because...well, because I think he's one smart Wraith, and knew he was as good as dead if he finished the programming. I believe that - even though he was starving and weak - he did manipulate them by SHOWING his weakness, something Wraith don't like to do (as is evident by Steve's stoic endurance while in captivity, and his determination not to look weak in front of his captors - well...until he was dying, and even then he was more aggressive than weak.)

                                You're saying we should have treated like a human when he isn't. He's a predator, you don't let predators lose without watching them.
                                Never said he should be treated like a 'human' - but humanely. If you have a tiger and you have no means of feeding it - isn't it the humane thing to set it free so that it can hunt for itself? The first thing the Lanteans did wrong, in my opinion, is that they took Todd captive. They had a tiger, and they knew they had no means of feeding it. And they had no intention of setting it free. Therefore, from the moment they took Todd captive, it was their intention to let him to starve to death. It was inevitable.

                                Eventually, Todd proved we could take the chains off. I don't think Todd thought they were belittling him, he wouldn't have contacted the Lantians again if he didn't. Todd knew they were taking precautions, and he knew about Ronon's past. Todd was very accepting, perhaps too accepting.
                                Too trusting, it would seem. But I do believe Todd felt belittled - his attitude in Miller's Crossing suggests that he was very unhappy with his treatment, to the point of refusing to help with the replicator problem. It was only after Rodney planted the idea of doing it 'for himself' that Todd perked up a bit. I think from that point onward it all became a game to Todd - how to out-Wraith the Wraith-like humans. It was a more subtle 'hunt' than tracking down a runner, or rounding up his human herd. Remember what he said just now in TLM - "there's something to be said of stealth over brute force". As a Wraith, he once relied on brute force to defeat enemies and cull humans. But he's learned to take a more subtle approach...to use his brain over his brawn. So, I think after Rodney's little speech, Todd began to enjoy finding ways to out-smart and manipulate humans...just because 'he can'.

                                There was the issue of neither side fully trusting the other side. But their actions were not outside the realm of possibility. And lets not forget, the Wraith were fully prepared to force Sheppard and Mckay to create a virus before Carter arrived and rescued them.

                                I disagree - Todd asked to meet Sheppard on neutral ground - no indication that he asked for McKay to be present, or that he intended to force the Lanteans to do anything for him. In this case, it was definitely the humans who were the tricksty ones.

                                Chris Heyerdahl, in his interview here at Gateworld (worth reading), said that Todd's relationship with Sheppard is more 'right'. For Sheppard, the events in Common Ground were just another adventure - soon to be overshadowed by the next adventure. But what happened to Todd in CG was more profound - Sheppard truly DID give him back his life, and for that I believe he came to admire humans more than any Wraith could possibly do. I think, based on that admiration, Todd dared to trust Sheppard again, only to be double-crossed. He's learned his lesson, and now knows where he stands, but I think he still has a certain level of admiration - and cautious respect - for his favorite foods.

                                das
                                Last edited by dasNdanger; March 8, 2008, 07:11 PM.
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