The Anti Season 4 Thread (Spoilers). For complaints and misgivings ONLY.

[nowvoyager908]

Oh yes. There was a time when the "pro" and "anti" season threads were rare to nonexistent on GW. And then came SG1's season nine, which caused a large fraction in the fanbase. On one side were the fans who hated the changes - no RDA, minimal Sam, too much Vala, dislike of Mitchell, boring new enemy, problems with the Sam/Mitchell leadership decision, bad plots with too much T&A, etc. etc. etc. And on the other side were the fans who were very happy with the changes. Commence fandom fighting, complete with "negative comments should only be in the anti thread" campaigns, appointing certain groups of fans as "real fans", and deflecting complaints with "why are you still watching?" instead of actually responding to the comments made. It was quite bad for a while, calmed down a bit, and then restarted even nastier when it was announced that SG1 was canceled. It has since calmed down again.

Joe M. had a blog on GW during that time. Needless to say, that blog went to pot with the nastiest poster comments about the actors, PTB, and other fan groups. Joe did snark at certain comments, but I can't recall if he actively sniped at groups of fans or specific individuals like he's doing now. He closed it down after months of vitriol and recently opened up this current blog at an off-site.

All of this has happened before. All of this is currently happening again.

So, basically fans have been down this road before and JM should have been prepared for the negative reaction. If RDA leaving (voluntarily) ushered in changes that some fans didn't take to and complained about, why would he think that cast changes in SGA wouldn't also provoke some sort of negative response.

I guess TPTB didn't think that the Weir or Beckett characters were popular enough for fans to care about. Additionally, they were probably banking on the addition of Carter to calm the waters. Maybe they just counted on fans being willing to accept the changes because after SG1's cancellation, SGA is the only game in town.

Whatever the reason for his reaction, JM's blog entry was certainly an eye opener for me. LOL.

[Easter Lily]

I was in the Pro-season 4 thread and someone mentioned about how Atlantis should have many more seasons after this one, cause it has so many more stories to tell. And I was like (and this thought was almost like an automated response)... 'Of course, there's more stories to tell. Heck, there's 10 years of SG1 to rehash.'

And yes, I sometimes venture into the Pro-thread and I have to admit that the enthusiasm I see in there stings a lot bit sometimes.

I don't mind their enthusiasm... They're optimistic, they think that TPTB can do no wrong... good on them. But what really bugs me is the impatience I sense with the negative point of view... as if one cannot be making negative pre-judgements about a show based on previous experience or publicity titbits from TPTB in interviews or blogs. All we're doing is venturing an opinion based on what we do know, coloured by our own biases.

[Willow'sCat]

I post in both the Anti and Pro threads as I am Anti Weir staying in any form and Anti Carson being brought back. Also not pleased with Carter coming on board.

I don't really care too much about episodes until I actually see them.

I post in the Pro thread for other reasons.

This is a forum for discussion after all not a place to take up arms and fight each other. And selective memory is a wonderful thing ain't it?

[Easter Lily]

So, basically fans have been down this road before and JM should have been prepared for the negative reaction. If RDA leaving (voluntarily) ushered in changes that some fans didn't take to and complained about, why would he think that cast changes in SGA wouldn't also provoke some sort of negative response.

Of course they have. I have maintained from Day One that they should have known how fans would have reacted. I have nothing against JM or any of the TPTB personally. They seem like intelligent, interesting people. I like reading JM's blog, I like his wry sense of humour and I can even understand some of his impatience with certain segments of fandom. But where they fall down is in their PR.
I don't expect them to tell us everything that goes on in Stargate... I don't want to know about how much so and so earns or the terms of their contract etc etc... That's none of my business. But I really wish they would treat fandom with some respect even the belligerent ones. One of the hats I wear is teaching and if I talked to my students the way TPTB treat fans, I'd be out of a job in a hurry. I have belligerent students too... but I exercise all the diplomacy in my power to make sure they feel heard and try to explain to them why things are what they are in our college. Almost all are reasonable people, they mightn't like what they hear but at least they appreciate being heard. Everything said and done, the belligerence of fans should not be the criteria by which TPTB responds to fandom. I can't help feeling everytime I log in here, that we wouldn't have the state of affairs that we have today, if the showrunners had been a little more circumspect.

I guess TPTB didn't think that the Weir or Beckett characters were popular enough for fans to care about. Additionally, they were probably banking on the addition of Carter to calm the waters. Maybe they just counted on fans being willing to accept the changes because after SG1's cancellation, SGA is the only game in town.

If they thought that, they're dumber than I thought but I don't think so. Unlike what other detractors have said, I don't think TPTB are dumb. But they're certainly playing for high stakes -- the survival of Stargate as a whole.
Personally I don't agree with many of their decisions but I suspect they didn't make them lightly. What I want is SGA to be its own show but from the bits and pieces of I've heard, I don't think it's going to be.

[nowvoyager908]

I don't mind their enthusiasm... They're optimistic, they think that TPTB can do no wrong... good on them. But what really bugs me is the impatience I sense with the negative point of view... as if one cannot be making negative pre-judgements about a show based on previous experience or publicity titbits from TPTB in interviews or blogs. All we're doing is venturing an opinion based on what we do know, coloured by our own biases.

Exactly. Both sets of fans have access to the same info . . . which is actually very little, but just enough to fuel rampant speculation.

Why is being excited about season 4 considered more informed than being unhappy with the changes. Is there some secret code encrypted in the info provided by TPTB that only certain fans can see?

I guess this is the ugly side of fandom . . .the "them against us" mind set. "I have a right to my opinion, but your opinion is less than important because it doesn't agree with mine, so go away." LOL.

Well, I've always been kind of stubborn, so I guess I'll stick around for a while longer, negative attitude and all.

[nowvoyager908]

Of course they have. I have maintained from Day One that they should have known how fans would have reacted. I have nothing against JM or any of the TPTB personally. They seem like intelligent, interesting people. I like reading JM's blog, I like his wry sense of humour and I can even understand some of his impatience with certain segments of fandom. But where they fall down is in their PR.
I don't expect them to tell us everything that goes on in Stargate... I don't want to know about how much so and so earns or the terms of their contract etc etc... That's none of my business. But I really wish they would treat fandom with some respect even the belligerent ones. One of the hats I wear is teaching and if I talked to my students the way TPTB treat fans, I'd be out of a job in a hurry. I have belligerent students too... but I exercise all the diplomacy in my power to make sure they feel heard and try to explain to them why things are what they are in our college. Almost all are reasonable people, they mightn't like what they hear but at least they appreciate being heard. Everything said and done, the belligerence of fans should not be the criteria by which TPTB responds to fandom. I can't help feeling everytime I log in here, that we wouldn't have the state of affairs that we have today, if the showrunners had been a little more circumspect.


If they thought that, they're dumber than I thought but I don't think so. Unlike what other detractors have said, I don't think TPTB are dumb. But they're certainly playing for high stakes -- the survival of Stargate as a whole.
Personally I don't agree with many of their decisions but I suspect they didn't make them lightly. What I want is SGA to be its own show but from the bits and pieces of I've heard, I don't think it's going to be.

I'm not gonna say TPTB are dumb, because they wouldn't have gotten this far. But I do think they have made unnecessarily risky decisions regarding SGA based on the assumption of an adoring and accepting fandom. They might assume some fans will complain (as they apparently did after RDA left), but they also seem to take it as a given that in the end, most will climb onboard with whatever is planned.

As you say, they are playing for high stakes. Which is why I will never understand why they didn't just add Carter to the series to try to bridge (no pun intended) SG1 fans. Killing Beckett and demoting (for lack of a better word) Weir is just lunacy if you're trying to keep your fan base intact, and in fact, build upon it. Whether their hand was forced by MGM or SciFi, or whether they made the decision on their own, is really immaterial because the end result is the same. And they definitely could have handled the whole situation better from the get go.

As you say, I also want SGA to be its own show and from what I've read, it looks like we're going to get season 11 of SG1 instead. Again, IMHO.

[ToasterOnFire]

I post in both the Anti and Pro threads as I am Anti Weir staying in any form and Anti Carson being brought back. Also not pleased with Carter coming on board.

I don't really care too much about episodes until I actually see them.

I post in the Pro thread for other reasons.

This is a forum for discussion after all not a place to take up arms and fight each other. And selective memory is a wonderful thing ain't it?

You raise an excellent point, WC. I think there are people who assume that the anti thread is only for people who are against anything and everything about a particular season. That's incorrect though. Reading through the anti-s3 thread I see posts by people who disliked most of the season, people who had misgivings about particular storyarcs or characters but liked the rest, and people who otherwise loved the season but stopped in to gripe about one or two things. I was a regular poster in the anti-s3 thread and while I had my gripes (Lucius, argh!) overall I thought the season was far stronger than s2 and had some of the best eps of the series so far.

The converse is true too - the pro-s3 thread wasn't occupied just by people who love everything and anything about s3. There were people that did love everything, there were others who loved most of it but had hangups in some spots, and there were people who had major problems with s3 but were so happy with a particular ep that they had to stop in the pro thread and post their joy.

Fans are neither completely "anti" nor are they completely "pro". Everyone has something they liked and something they disliked about past seasons. So it's perfectly normal to see people posting in both the pro and anti threads. And it's perfectly normal to have people post different things they're pro about and different things they're anti about. Such is the amalgam of fandom!

It's all good!

[mcbarr]

As you say, they are playing for high stakes. Which is why I will never understand why they didn't just add Carter to the series to try to bridge (no pun intended) SG1 fans. Killing Beckett and demoting (for lack of a better word) Weir is just lunacy if you're trying to keep your fan base intact, and in fact, build upon it. Whether their hand was forced by MGM or SciFi, or whether they made the decision on their own, is really immaterial because the end result is the same. And they definitely could have handled the whole situation better from the get go.

Unjustly firing main cast members turns people off. If things were different, I would probably accept the changes and enjoy and the new doctor, but, given the circumstances, I just can't. Oxygen-waster fans are a pain in the ass indeed, but they (we) have a better sense of justice than TPTB.

[jerkface]

I was catching up on the last few pages of this thread, which prompted me to read through the recent dust-up on the "Ask J.M." thread. And the whole thing really threw me for a loop.

Maybe it's just because I've never been particularly involved in fandom. I started posting here to babble about a show I saw getting worse for reasons I didn't understand, but I've never really posted a whole lot anywhere. So I'm sorry if I sound baffled by the mundane. But I don't really get most of the arguments being made.

Most of the arguments seem to boil down to people claiming that the posters they disagree with can't cite any one episode/spoiler/PTB comment as proof that the show has become better/worse. But what else could one possibly use?

Why is being excited about season 4 considered more informed than being unhappy with the changes. Is there some secret code encrypted in the info provided by TPTB that only certain fans can see?

Exactly—how can the same evidence be used to prove a positive if it can't prove a negative?

And the optimistic part of me thinks it's nice when people point out that we're all just spouting opinions—it's a work of fiction we're discussing after all, and assessments of its quality or its implications will always seem murky. But at the same time, I think it's downright silly to point out the fact that these are opinions as if that were an insult.

Gah, I don't know, I'm probably not doing anything more myself, other than using a lot of words to wave my (metaphorical) arms and say "I am upset by the fact that we are all upset!"

It just seems like I'm reading a lot of reasonable people using a very unreasonable vision of the people they disagree with in order to yell at them. (i.e. "I know you're not this unreasonable, but there are people who are just name-calling, and those people are jerks.") And now one of the writers and (eep!) executive producers is joining in with the typical "you disagree with me-->you must spend your life doing this-->you must be a sad, pathetic loser" logic.

Hey, I've never been shy about spouting my own opinions. And I'm sure I could be more empathetic toward the pro- crowd than I am; I'm sure there is more crud on both sides than I realize. And I fully admit, I don't (and haven't) found it unjustifiable to make judgments about the future of a show (or its writers' future work) based on its (or their) past. But I am finding it hard to feel anything more than disgusted pity for anyone who brings other people's "mommies" into discussions of TV show. Criminy.

[Falcon Horus]

I don't mind their enthusiasm... They're optimistic, they think that TPTB can do no wrong... good on them.

Oh, I don't mind it either. Sometimes I even myself joining in and thinking it can't all be that bad, until I stumble across another tidbit of information on the new season, and all that hope of enthusiasm is crushed again.

I have quite a few "anti"-feelings, but I'm still willing to give the show a chance.

I don't really care too much about episodes until I actually see them.

Seeing them, and then express my feelings about what I thought of it. Beforehand all you have is speculations and/or spoilers maybe, but nothing truly solid.

Why is being excited about season 4 considered more informed than being unhappy with the changes. Is there some secret code encrypted in the info provided by TPTB that only certain fans can see?

Sometimes, you gotta wonder...

As you say, I also want SGA to be its own show and from what I've read, it looks like we're going to get season 11 of SG1 instead.

Second that... Though I'm still hoping it won't be that.

Fans are neither completely "anti" nor are they completely "pro". Everyone has something they liked and something they disliked about past seasons. So it's perfectly normal to see people posting in both the pro and anti threads. And it's perfectly normal to have people post different things they're pro about and different things they're anti about. Such is the amalgam of fandom!

That would be me...

[Easter Lily]

I don't think too many of us are completely "anti" but yeah, we do have quibbles about different aspects of the show.

I didn't realise that a storm had broken out regarding JM's blog. I hadn't read it for a couple of days so I missed out on the outrage. Ah well... fandom... all fun and games. Personally, I thought it was a sad day for Stargate fandom... didn't think things could get any lower. But I was wrong.

If I didn't care about the show that much, I would've packed it in already...

[Suzotchka]

Has anyone else seen the ratings? SG-1 & Atlantis not doing so good. I think it's probably a combination of the 6/7 month delay in airing the rest of S3 and the news about the cast changes for S4.

I just want my old team back and my old Atlantis show back.....

[nowvoyager908]

Has anyone else seen the ratings? SG-1 & Atlantis not doing so good. I think it's probably a combination of the 6/7 month delay in airing the rest of S3 and the news about the cast changes for S4.

I just want my old team back and my old Atlantis show back.....

I think the delay in airing the second half hurt alot. Viewers may have lost interest during the hiatus. And, unless you watch SciFi for another show, you probably never saw the spots advertising SGA's return. To be honest, Sci Fi doesn't really have much to offer. I watch Enterprise on Mondays because . . . well, for me Trek equals life, but that is another story. LOL.

As far as the ratings dropping from week 1 to 2, I hate to say it but although I liked the conclusion of the Return, IMHO it wasn't as good as part one (which I loved). And as a fan of SGA who never watched SG1, it bothered me that O'Neill and Woolsey had so much airtime. If I have to watch snark, I'd prefer it to be SGA team snark. Maybe the so called "casual viewer" was less than thrilled with the episodes of both shows and decided to pass on the the following week's offering.

[ToasterOnFire]

I'm kind of curious dreading how the ratings will fare once people see Irresponsible..

[nowvoyager908]

I'm kind of curious dreading how the ratings will fare once people see Irresponsible..

Dread is the right word. Unfortunately, I remember Irresistible all to well . . . it caused a self-imposed two episode SGA moratorium. I needed time to recover. LOL. Needless to say I won't be watching Irr Part 2.

I'm more curious to see how viewers respond to Sunday. I think that might be the true test . . . to see a beloved character bite the dust. I think lots of fans will be so shocked, they won't care whether the episode was well crafted or well acted. Plus, news about Torri Higginson's fate seems to be filtering out to the real world, and who knows what impact that news will have on the "casual viewer".

Though I don't watch SG1, I'm almost more shocked about that show's ratings drop. You would think that fans, knowing it was the last season, would be anxious to tune in and see the final episodes. What is going on?