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The Anti Season 4 Thread (Spoilers). For complaints and misgivings ONLY.

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    Originally posted by Killdeer View Post

    TH said, and I'm quoting from her interview in Stargate Magazine:

    "I think that is where the writers get frustrated with the actors because we are always up there going "Wait a minute! We just lost one of our guys! Can't it be referenced in the next episode?" Their modus operandi is 'No, this is part of a plot driven show and logistically, we don't know the order of how they will be airing.' I have an issue with that. There was an episode where a new doctor is introduced and I said, 'In this scene, please can I show some sadness? Can there be a beat of that?' And they didn't want to, and I think fans are very loyal to certain characters. I understand where they are coming from but I felt we were missing something, some level of emotion."

    It makes me wonder if the reason for getting rid of Weir and Beckett was precisely that, to get rid of the emotional side of the show. If they want to focus on action and plot, Weir and Beckett would only slow them down, because their purpose is to show the human side, the emotional reaction. If the writers are trying to get rid of that, and make it a purely sci-fi action flick show....

    I'm just speculating now. Just some thoughts.

    Well that just sums it up.....It's sad that TH actually had to bring up the continuation and the mention of said character when TPTB seemingly weren't bothered and just wanted to move on........

    The change from a character driven show to a plot driven show has happened to SG1 and IMO helped lead to it's downfall and now it's happening to Atlantis.
    To me it's one of the things that first got me into SG1, the characters and character-driven storylines.

    Now it seems like characters have to fit into the plots and if they don't they're just pushed aside. There are plenty of other scifi action/spaceship type shows out there, and most of which frankly I'm not interested in.

    Thanks to Kidwizz for sig

    Comment


      totally agree the 'action hour' is what killed andromeda to... they don't seem to learn from history either
      Spoiler:

      "It gets sort of Zen after a while, Life is a Journey. Time is a River. The door is Ajar."
      ~ Waldo Butters, in Dead Beat by Jim Butcher
      Card designed by Falcon Horus

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        Originally posted by stclare View Post
        not having watched sg1 since probably mid season 8 i cant comment on what happened there.
        for me personaly i would not like to see a division of military/civilian. i much prefer stories where the team are up against it, enthasis on team and dare i say it ..space battles and big explosions. not everyones cup of tea i know. but the less i see of Carter in any context the better
        Yeah, it all comes down to personal preferences and YMMV and all that. I do like an "us vs. them" conflict with the team uniting to fight anyone that goes against them, but I think I prefer more internal conflict within the team. More, anyway, than what we've seen on the show so far. People from all walks of life do come together and make a strong team in real life, but people are also grouped together in real life and fight with each other from time to time or never really get along. I guess I'd rather see the team occasionally fight with each other, eventually reach an understanding, and be stronger because of it instead of bonding suddenly and never wavering.

        Originally posted by grasshopper64 View Post
        Well that just sums it up.....It's sad that TH actually had to bring up the continuation and the mention of said character when TPTB seemingly weren't bothered and just wanted to move on........

        The change from a character driven show to a plot driven show has happened to SG1 and IMO helped lead to it's downfall and now it's happening to Atlantis.
        To me it's one of the things that first got me into SG1, the characters and character-driven storylines.
        I completely agree. I understand that Atlantis has to be a stand-alone series to a certain extent to make it easier to syndicate or whatever. But if a series gets too stand-alone its characters suffer and become unrealistic. It's the Big Reset Button that so many have lamented the past few seasons. Rodney blows up a solar system, gets hell for it and strains relationships with others...and it's never developed beyond that. Teyla and Ronon set themselves apart from the Earthers in the same episode...and we haven't seen or felt that distinction since then. Weir is willing to torture someone in Critical Mass and transform an individual against his will in Michael...but we never really feel her subsequent pain and doubt in doing so.

        And now this latest and biggest transgression, where Carson is tragically killed in one episode. TPTB go to great efforts to show everyone's pain in that episode, but they don't touch on it in later ones. They don't even mention his death in the two subsequent episodes. Heck, if the interview is correct it was an ACTOR, not a PTB, that pushed for some continuity. That's worrisome.

        TPTB seem torn between a character driven show and a stand alone show. They write these huge emotional events - deaths, blunders, divisions, changing who you used to be because the situation demands it - and yet almost every time they're forgotten in the next episode. It makes it harder to relate to the characters and it trivializes the emotional events that have occured.

        Comment


          well said! green you if i could!
          Spoiler:

          "It gets sort of Zen after a while, Life is a Journey. Time is a River. The door is Ajar."
          ~ Waldo Butters, in Dead Beat by Jim Butcher
          Card designed by Falcon Horus

          Comment


            My turn to ask a question

            would you be able to put up with the newish characters of Sam, Ellis and Keller if all the other characters remained intact as they were earlier on in season 3?
            Spoiler:

            "It gets sort of Zen after a while, Life is a Journey. Time is a River. The door is Ajar."
            ~ Waldo Butters, in Dead Beat by Jim Butcher
            Card designed by Falcon Horus

            Comment


              Originally posted by parisindy View Post
              My turn to ask a question

              would you be able to put up with the newish characters of Sam, Ellis and Keller if all the other characters remained intact as they were earlier on in season 3?
              I dont know if "put up with" is the write words i would use for me. would i accept the changes more readily...no. if anything the addition of these would mean even less time for the original cast. and TPTB could not cope with the cast they had let alone trying to spread screen time amongst 3 extra. 1 of whom i would expect to have dedicated eps and lots of dialogue.

              i dont think for me personaly, any which way they introduced these changes was going to imrove my expectations. I was drawn to Atlantis because it wasn't SG1. this so called soft reset is bringing Atlantis more and more closer to SG1 and therfore loosing my interest.

              as they say "time will tell"
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                Originally posted by nowvoyager908 View Post
                I think where I disagree with your take on "heart and soul" is that in my mind, it doesn’t mean always being perfect, or even as always doing the right thing. It’s more a feeling of giving emotional weight to the show . . . to ground the show so that it doesn't fly off into space (no pun intended). LOL. It’s actually more interesting to me to see someone struggle with a decision that may go against their better judgment than to see someone be perfect all the time . . . or to not think or feel at all.
                Where did I say she or Carson had to be perfect?

                I unlike some find it hard to believe these characters are somehow integral to SGA because they *alone* have emotional connections and are (what?) thinking and feeling humans.... so the other characters are replicators or something? See the flaw in the argument for Saving Weir and Carson imho is that these two characters are not all they are cracked up to be.

                Spoiled 'cause as the actress said to the Vicar... wow it is really long! *sorry*
                Spoiler:

                All I see when Weir is around is a women who does not lead. She follows and it is usually Sheppard or McKay that she follows.

                A women who would do anything to save her own job, she didn't even have the guts to resign after it was clear the military were going over her head with frankly a stupid plan. If she was a real leader, someone who actually got it, she would have gone to Sheppard and McKay and took the time to come up with an alternative *the phrase kicking and screaming comes to mind* Instead she went to Telya and had a b**** session. Yes there is something to be said for staying on the ship as it sinks *good for her* but really there was no leadership there.

                I know it seems tptb had washed their hands of Weir by then, but for me it only adds to the long list of reasons why I feel she was never leadership material in the first place. Lets face it, she is now a totally weakened character, and as they say... it is time to go.

                As for Carson, he is a medical doctor first, or so they told us in season one and just so we wouldn't forget they told us again at the beginning of season two. So why did he think he could pull of something so obviously fraught with danger? So obviously out of his league? His field of known expertise? Not once but twice! It is just hard to understand. I have had a huge problem with Carson since the whole retro virus thing started, not becasue I think he should be pure as the driven snow but because it just seems so stupid of tptb to think we could buy him as this guy, a guy who didn't give much thought to what he was really doing.

                He went from the most ethical character on SGA (see Poisoning the Well) to what we end up with during the Michael related eps. Now you can say he evolved, changed after everything that happened but you know what, the last time I looked SGA was not good at subtle character changes, or growth, or anything so what we really end up with is having to swallow these character changes out of the blue.

                One week we have Carson ready to experiment on living creatures with seemingly no real remorse.... to not so much with the fast forward; to The Return Pt2 to a Carson who cries over the "wee baby turtles"... that my friend is facile TV and you are welcome to it. If a character changes that much I expect some of it to stick throughout the season. Sure he can be complex, great be complex but you are forgetting this is SGA they don't do that here, all we get are weird OOC moments that somehow we are meant to make sense out of.

                Yeah it is the same with Ronon and Teyla and John and Rodney, they all do and say things one ep they would find abhorrent the next. I guess for me I just find it easier to lose Weir and Carson, to see their departure as no big deal and no great loss. I certainly don't feel like I am losing the Hear and Soul of Atlantis.

                *shrugs*

                Don't get me wrong it is tptb I blame for all of this not the actors... the actors are innocent bystanders just like us. It is tptb who seem to think this is the 80s and all you need is a cute lead, hot babe, flashy weapons and a nice theme tune to have a hit show.

                I tell you it is all over when Sheppard sports a three day growth and a fluro suit.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by parisindy View Post
                  Would you be able to put up with the newish characters of Sam, Ellis and Keller if all the other characters remained intact as they were earlier on in season 3?
                  If all the characters, and that includes Carson and Elizabeth I assume, remained intact I could (maybe) put up with Carter BUT since McKay turns into something that is no longer recognizable as the annoying little whiny genius he is, I think I'd have to say no in the end. I don't need to see his intellect go down the drain whenever his blonde goddess is around.

                  I can (and will) put up with Keller, since well Jewel is one of my favorites. Shallow probably, sue me I don't care. But what I would have loved to see even more is an interaction between Carson and Jennifer. Why would she be the best choice to be the next lead of the medical team? I'm pretty sure Carson would have a few things to say about that.

                  I don't care much for Ellis. I didn't like him in First Strike. I found him obnoxious maybe, and he displayed zero respect for Elizabeth.
                  Heightmeyer's Lemming -- still the coolest Lemming of the forum

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                    Carter will probably suck all the oxygen in the room asphyxiating characters like Sheppard and McKay. Some people keep saying the most bizarre things about Dr. Weir, but she never took away anybody's screen time. Will the same apply to Carter? I doubt it. Too much history... Not to mention that if the US/IOA were to militarize Atlantis, they would send a General, not Carter.

                    I have no problem with Keller, that is, other than the fact that she's too young to assume Beckett's post. It would have made more sense if Carson had stayed alive with Keller as his assistant.

                    And Ellis... What can I say? Poor copy of Sisko? That's the first thing that occurred to me when I watched First Strike, and I haven't changed my mind. To be fair, he was only in one ep.
                    Last edited by mcbarr; 12 May 2007, 12:48 PM.
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                      Originally posted by Willow'sCat View Post
                      See the flaw in the argument for Saving Weir and Carson imho is that these two characters are not all they are cracked up to be.
                      i disagree completely but i respect your opinion thank you for sharing it
                      I adore weir and carson

                      but as for the others
                      i strongly dislike sam, ellis and keller but i think i would still be watching the show if everything else was the same

                      i wouldn't be happy but i would be watching

                      sam and keller are huge stumbling blocks for me
                      as for ellis i think that he is just in a couple of epps then gone forever...good riddance to bad rubbish that
                      Spoiler:

                      "It gets sort of Zen after a while, Life is a Journey. Time is a River. The door is Ajar."
                      ~ Waldo Butters, in Dead Beat by Jim Butcher
                      Card designed by Falcon Horus

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Willow'sCat View Post
                        Where did I say she or Carson had to be perfect?

                        I unlike some find it hard to believe these characters are somehow integral to SGA because they *alone* have emotional connections and are (what?) thinking and feeling humans.... so the other characters are replicators or something? See the flaw in the argument for Saving Weir and Carson imho is that these two characters are not all they are cracked up to be.

                        Spoiled 'cause as the actress said to the Vicar... wow it is really long! *sorry*
                        Spoiler:

                        All I see when Weir is around is a women who does not lead. She follows and it is usually Sheppard or McKay that she follows.

                        A women who would do anything to save her own job, she didn't even have the guts to resign after it was clear the military were going over her head with frankly a stupid plan. If she was a real leader, someone who actually got it, she would have gone to Sheppard and McKay and took the time to come up with an alternative *the phrase kicking and screaming comes to mind* Instead she went to Telya and had a b**** session. Yes there is something to be said for staying on the ship as it sinks *good for her* but really there was no leadership there.

                        I know it seems tptb had washed their hands of Weir by then, but for me it only adds to the long list of reasons why I feel she was never leadership material in the first place. Lets face it, she is now a totally weakened character, and as they say... it is time to go.

                        As for Carson, he is a medical doctor first, or so they told us in season one and just so we wouldn't forget they told us again at the beginning of season two. So why did he think he could pull of something so obviously fraught with danger? So obviously out of his league? His field of known expertise? Not once but twice! It is just hard to understand. I have had a huge problem with Carson since the whole retro virus thing started, not becasue I think he should be pure as the driven snow but because it just seems so stupid of tptb to think we could buy him as this guy, a guy who didn't give much thought to what he was really doing.

                        He went from the most ethical character on SGA (see Poisoning the Well) to what we end up with during the Michael related eps. Now you can say he evolved, changed after everything that happened but you know what, the last time I looked SGA was not good at subtle character changes, or growth, or anything so what we really end up with is having to swallow these character changes out of the blue.

                        One week we have Carson ready to experiment on living creatures with seemingly no real remorse.... to not so much with the fast forward; to The Return Pt2 to a Carson who cries over the "wee baby turtles"... that my friend is facile TV and you are welcome to it. If a character changes that much I expect some of it to stick throughout the season. Sure he can be complex, great be complex but you are forgetting this is SGA they don't do that here, all we get are weird OOC moments that somehow we are meant to make sense out of.

                        Yeah it is the same with Ronon and Teyla and John and Rodney, they all do and say things one ep they would find abhorrent the next. I guess for me I just find it easier to lose Weir and Carson, to see their departure as no big deal and no great loss. I certainly don't feel like I am losing the Hear and Soul of Atlantis.

                        *shrugs*

                        Don't get me wrong it is tptb I blame for all of this not the actors... the actors are innocent bystanders just like us. It is tptb who seem to think this is the 80s and all you need is a cute lead, hot babe, flashy weapons and a nice theme tune to have a hit show.

                        I tell you it is all over when Sheppard sports a three day growth and a fluro suit.
                        hehehe, not a big Carson and Liz fan then Willow? Fair enough.

                        Personally though, I really enjoyed the moral ambuguity that came across in Beckett - especially with the retrovirus storyline. I thought it actually came across really well that he was in two minds about his actions - both in Michael and in Misbegotten... especially in the latter. Maybe if they hadn't ruddy well killed him off we could've seen more of his feelings over the whole issue.

                        Can't wait to see Shep in a fluro suit.... hehhe, can't get that image out of my head!!!!!!!

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Diesel Vanilla View Post
                          Personally though, I really enjoyed the moral ambuguity that came across in Beckett - especially with the retrovirus storyline. I thought it actually came across really well that he was in two minds about his actions - both in Michael and in Misbegotten... especially in the latter. Maybe if they hadn't ruddy well killed him off we could've seen more of his feelings over the whole issue.
                          i loved the whole bit science versus morality idea its a fine line to walk and an interesting one.

                          Can't wait to see Shep in a fluro suit.... hehhe, can't get that image out of my head!!!!!!!
                          stupid question whats a fluro suit?
                          Spoiler:

                          "It gets sort of Zen after a while, Life is a Journey. Time is a River. The door is Ajar."
                          ~ Waldo Butters, in Dead Beat by Jim Butcher
                          Card designed by Falcon Horus

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by parisindy View Post
                            My turn to ask a question

                            would you be able to put up with the newish characters of Sam, Ellis and Keller if all the other characters remained intact as they were earlier on in season 3?
                            I've thought about this a lot since all the 'happenings'. If I am totally honest, I have to say yes - if they had kept the core (my definition of core includes Beckett and Weir) then watching the newbies come in would be considerably less painful. I actually would've liked Beckett to have had an infirmary chum such as Keller. But obviously not to be.

                            *sighs*

                            So frustrating to lose your favourite character...

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Diesel Vanilla View Post
                              So frustrating to lose your favourite character...
                              i didn't loose my fav character but i did loose my fav team so yeah


                              i lost two of my second fav characters to

                              i'll miss my show
                              Spoiler:

                              "It gets sort of Zen after a while, Life is a Journey. Time is a River. The door is Ajar."
                              ~ Waldo Butters, in Dead Beat by Jim Butcher
                              Card designed by Falcon Horus

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by parisindy View Post
                                stupid question whats a fluro suit?
                                hehehehe, well, I don't know the true definition as to what W'Cat was referring, but in my head I can see Sheppy wearing a luminous sick yellow 'shell suit' of the late 80s/early 90s fashion rage.

                                *shudders*

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