The Game (315)

[Linzi]

Why do you keep saying that John started the war? What are you basing this upon? I respect that you would have your own opinion as to their individual motives and that you feel Rodney's technological focus was more noble than John's military focus, but it is purely speculative and is seemingly against the little that is known from this episode.

Watch the jumper scene again in the beginning. The dialogue and thus the facts state that they first negotiated, Rodney with his "list of demands" and trade off of a "whole crop of beans" and John asking for lumber. Rodney counters he wouldn't give it because John wanted to use it to build defensive fortifications and that John had doubled his army. John counters he only did so after Rodney started cheating (as you said) and that he is not the only one building his army. Rodney then counters that he only did so to protect his country from John.
The dialogue shows that each was reactive after the other, each claiming to be defensive, not offensive. But the trigger for it all was the cheating.

You keep saying that Rodney's cheating was harmless because it was only technology. Yet his technology is what allowed his people to build a bomb before their time. You said Rodney did not knowinglly give them a bomb, they figured it out themselves. This is correct. But it does not negate the point that Rodney's cheating led to the bomb and led to the digging of coal and the invasion of John's country. Rodney said he did all this defensively, John said he did his actions defensively. Rodney's people invaded. Rodney's people built the bomb. And Rodney's people attacked first. Against Rodney's will. So yes, in this aspect, I agree with you, he had good intentions. But it does not take away the ramifications of his actions. In this way, his cheating, regardless of intentions, was far from harmless.

John built up his army and wanted lumber for defense. He said so himself. That is the only fact that is known. Absolutely nowhere does it indicate that John started a war. Every indication is in fact that he responded defensively, after trade negotiations stalled. The facts also show his army did not counter-attack until after Rodney's had invaded. The facts show that Rodney's army made the first move, upon Rodney's order while he still thought it was a game.

Again, I ask, where do you get "John started a war" from any of these facts? The argument that Rodney's intentions with his technology was for good is not complete. It did some good ("team engines, bikes and other stuff to make their lives easier"), but you are ignoring the damage it caused as well. There was a dark side to that technology as they so painfully learned.

In the same way, the argument that "John geared up in response to Rodney's cheating" also does not support your statement that "John started a war." Even if we for a moment assume it was offensive deployment and not defensive recruitment, as the dialogue suggests, it still does not mean he started the war. Even if he had been preparing for one, the facts show that Rodney's people are the ones that attacked first, not John's. And they attacked not because they feared the large army perse, but firstly because they wanted his coal and when they couldn't negotiate for it, they stole it. Their reasoning? They needed the coal to continue their advancement for defense. Yet they moved offensively. How is this any different then John building up an army for defense? And he did not move offensively.

Both had good intentions, but the lure of greater technology before they were ready and before they fully understood it led to the eventual moral downfall of Rodney's people (ie, stealing and invading). It was never Rodney's intention, but yet it happened. The team had to show them with a final mass simulation just how dangerous that technology can be before they finally agreed to negotiate again. It was ultimately that premature access to technology and the desire for more by people not yet ready or able to understand the causality that led to the crossover from tensions to war.

What an excellent and well thought out post. I agree 100%.
Some people just don't want to see the facts as they were laid down in the episode, and then just ignore what you post because they don't agree with the logical response you give.
What you say makes perfect sense, no matter who you think is to blame for the escalation of agression between the two countries. Because you are stating the facts of what transpired.
I personally don't see why either Sheppard or McKay should be singled out for blame here as such. They both were playing a game to win! Had they realised it was not actually a game the situation would've been different and so would have their actions.
Blaming one over the other smacks of not wanting to admit the culpability one's obvious favourite character has here.
McKay cheated by giving advanced technology which led to an unfair advantage for his country. Yes, the Geldans made the bomb themselves but ONLY after McKay had given them the scientific know how to do so. To say McKay wasn't directly responsible is akin to saying, hey, you haven't mastered fire yet? Well here's a match. It'll make you a better country with a better way of life. You burnt your enemies forest down? How's that my fault? I only showed them how they could make fire, didn't tell them what to do with it.
Had he not given them that information they wouldn't have been able to do that. Also McKay gave the Geldan's the order to drill into their neighbours country, which is clearly an act of agression. Anyone remember Kuwait and the attempt to steal oil there which caused a bloody war? Infact most wars are started by an incursion onto a neighbours land.
So, actually, I've changed my mind. McKay was more to blame because he cheated and ordered his country to steal Hallona's resources

[FallenAngelII]

In my previous posts (yes, you should read them), I made it clear that Rodney was to blame as well. He did two things that were key to the conflict:
1) Offered a bad trade deal (very early)
2) Stole coal (very late, though)

The important thing to note here is that while Rodney offered a bad deal, it was John's response to it that lead to a lot of animosity, what with the offering of things that would kill Rodney.

With the coal, sure, it was theft. But nobody had gotten hurt. John's people responded by waging war. Instead of just jailing the people caught in the mines and demanding an apology and maybe ransome like civilized people, they immediately waged war.

Why? A lot of things.

But one of the things, one of the key things, that lead to war was John's doubling of his military. Rodney gave his people steam engines and bikes and John immediately felt threatened and instead of giving his people technological advancement as well, he prepared for war.

Then, once they'd discovered the game they were playing was real, while Rodney tried with all his might (though stumbling along the way and stuttering and not doing a very good job at it) at pacifying Nola, John kept saying Rodney cheated, insulting Rodney and talking badly about him and his people with Baten right there. Heck, he even agreed with some of Baten's points (some of which lead to war).

While Rodney did things that would later result in war, it was John's reactions to them (and the way he reacted) that lead to war.

Assuming someone is going to attack you just because they're researching steam engines and hot air balloons is not exactly a very peaceful way of thinking.

Yes, they both wanted to win, but through different means. Rodney wanted his people to be the most prosperous while John no doubt had a military mindset, not only wanting his people to be the most prosperous but almost the greatest war nation.

While Rodney played the game like The Sims 2, John played it like Warcraft 3.

[Mitchell82]

I really enjoyed this ep as a fan of RTS game like Command and Conquer and Empire at War. I loved how Rodney and John were really getting into their roles of Ruler. As someone else already stated we saw all our characters become failable. Great epe iMO.

[LoveConquers]

In my previous posts (yes, you should read them), I made it clear that Rodney was to blame as well. He did two things that were key to the conflict:
1) Offered a bad trade deal (very early)
2) Stole coal (very late, though)

The important thing to note here is that while Rodney offered a bad deal, it was John's response to it that lead to a lot of animosity, what with the offering of things that would kill Rodney.

With the coal, sure, it was theft. But nobody had gotten hurt. John's people responded by waging war. Instead of just jailing the people caught in the mines and demanding an apology and maybe ransome like civilized people, they immediately waged war.

Why? A lot of things.

But one of the things, one of the key things, that lead to war was John's doubling of his military. Rodney gave his people steam engines and bikes and John immediately felt threatened and instead of giving his people technological advancement as well, he prepared for war.

Then, once they'd discovered the game they were playing was real, while Rodney tried with all his might (though stumbling along the way and stuttering and not doing a very good job at it) at pacifying Nola, John kept saying Rodney cheated, insulting Rodney and talking badly about him and his people with Baten right there. Heck, he even agreed with some of Baten's points (some of which lead to war).

While Rodney did things that would later result in war, it was John's reactions to them (and the way he reacted) that lead to war.

Assuming someone is going to attack you just because they're researching steam engines and hot air balloons is not exactly a very peaceful way of thinking.

While Rodney played the game like The Sims 2, John played it like Warcraft 3.

Thank you for clarifying. And please do not assume I have not read your posts. You have said that more than once and I have politely ignored your sarcasm. Regardless again, thank you for your answer. I still see your facts as being out of order from how they were shown in the episode however.

Again, according to John's words himself, he acted defensively. You are assuming John's translation of "Rodney cheating" is that he only saw the good technology and that he built up his army in response to bikes and hot air balloons and other happy things. I understand that. I thought I had addressed that in my post that you did not read. I am merely suggesting that we do not know how much John did or did know about Rodney's cheating. We do know he feared Rodney's people having greater technology so he built up defensively. And we know that his fears, whatever they were, turned out to be completed grounded. It seems more logical to me to assume he was thinking rightfully beyond the happy times to understand the deeper possibilities than to say that John was so petty that he built up armies in response to happy things. Perhaps he was, but I suggesting that perhaps he wasn't. Either way, neither saw how fast things would spin out of control and neither intended for real people to get hurt.

But I do agree with you that John's response throughout was rather immature after finding out that it was not a game after all. His singular focus on Rodney cheating was ill-fitting for his character. Alipeeps made a great comment to that regard earlier and I fully agree.

It sounds like we believe the same outcome, but by different actions. I believe the opposite of you. I believe while John also did things that resulted in war, Rodney's actions (not John's reactions...again reactions suggest defensive, not offensive) lead to that war in the first place.

I cannot believe that John's sending citrus fruit is worse than Rodney stealing and then further justifying that stealing by saying no one got hurt. It was stealing. It was invasion. And yet a petty citrus insult is worse than that? And how does ordering someone to protect one's own borders, with the additional order to limit causalities, with the outcome of a peaceful stand down, equate to waging war? Again, it was purely defensive, defending one's own borders. Someone attacks you, invades your home, and you don't defend yourself? You try to put their entire army in jail? And then ask for a ransom? That is better than a peaceful stand down? And ironically, they would have still had to go to them, just like they did, to even be able to put them in jail. It is my humble opinion that Rodney's technology led to the greed for more, which led to their invasion of another country, which forced said country to defend itself. Obviously you do not agree, so I think at this point, it is best to move on.

Alas, Linz, you are completely correct. Both thought they were playing a game and both tried to fix it and ultimately, they did! That is the most important thing. Thanks for the reminder!

[FallenAngelII]

I said that John did a lot of things that built up to war. The citrus itself (among other things, Baten's comment about the Geldars thinking everything is poisonous indicates John sent more than just citrus) was an act which lead Rodney to explain how dangerous it was, which made the Geldar conceive it as the insult it really was.

Sure, John built up his army in defense. That doesn't mean the action didn't plant seeds. It also lead to Rodney buffing up his defense. Now, if their armies had remained tiny, do you really think they could've gone out to all-scale war?

Rodney gave his people some extra commodities. How the hell would John even know Rodney was cheating unless he knew what Rodney was giving them? And his fears weren't really founded.

John feared John was giving his people weapons. Rodney didn't. His people figured it out on their own (but they had no idea of knowing it wasn't a game).

The Geldars stole coal, yes. Was this wrong? Yes. The Hallonan response was to start a full-scale war (sure, they began with just attacking the mines and taking it over peacefully. But shortly after, they marched into Geldar (with their entire army), no doubt seeking war.

You really think this is better than just capturing those invading their country?

I'm glad to see you agree with me on John's immaturity after they found out it was a game (and were desperately trying to prevent a war from breaking out!).

[YodaMate]

Sorry if i'm been repetitive but i didn't read the whole thread.

What i enjoyed the most about this episode was the implications it had for the greater Pegasus galaxy. It may have come off a shade gimmicky (though from what I've read so far, people have been responding fairly positively to the ep) but it did start to fill in a big gap in Pegasus history.

So far the story goes ; Atlanteans arrive in Pegasus, they seed the galaxy with life, soon it was flourishing with "life in this form", then the Wraith come and everyone is subjected to medieval or carefully hidden modern society/tech status for the next ten thousand years. There have been lingering questions as to what the galaxy looked like prior to the Wraith and how it became like that and this ep begins to answer them.

I know they refer to the Game as an "experiment", but i suspect that's still partly conjecture on Zelenka's part. After all, Rodney had no idea it was even transmitting data. What i suspect is that the Ancients used this method all over the PG, closely monitoring the various civilisations as they developed and making slight adjustments here and there. Once they were done, they could simply pack up the satellites, remotely shut down the receivers (or beam them away) and move on to the next planet.

True, it was an infringement on free will, but i doubt the Ancients used it to control to the extent that Shep and McKay did. And on the flip side, the Ancients had a responsibility to the galaxy ; they created the human civilisations, they have essentially a parental duty to them.

As 'parents' to the Pegasus humans, there was an enormous gap to fill. How do you teach your 'children' how to live and behave and think for themselves, when you're so advanced and they are primitives ? Without turning them into mini-Ancients who have learnt everything from their parents and nothing for themselves ? This is extremely important, as each civ evolves, they become part of a greater galaxy, one that includes one of the most advanced race known to have existed. Keeping things harmonious and preventing far more primitive societies from freaking out or going to war with each other would be an incredibly hard task, and in this way the Ancients preserved harmony, striking a balance between gentle guidance whilst keeping their distance.

I imagine that slowly they would allow the subjects to make more decisions of their own, making tiny adjustments if they seemed to be becoming hostile. The system would also let them know when the time was right to reveal the existence of 'ancestors' and teach them how to use the Gate, once they could be reasonably sure that the results would be peaceful trading, not territorial or imperialist warfare. Of course, once we Earthlings started to use the tech, things went quickly downhill, which is nicely tied to the theme of our learning curve.

[LoveConquers]

I said that John did a lot of things that built up to war. The citrus itself (among other things, Baten's comment about the Geldars thinking everything is poisonous indicates John sent more than just citrus) was an act which lead Rodney to explain how dangerous it was, which made the Geldar conceive it as the insult it really was.

Sure, John built up his army in defense. That doesn't mean the action didn't plant seeds. It also lead to Rodney buffing up his defense. Now, if their armies had remained tiny, do you really think they could've gone out to all-scale war?

Rodney gave his people some extra commodities. How the hell would John even know Rodney was cheating unless he knew what Rodney was giving them? And his fears weren't really founded.

John feared John was giving his people weapons. Rodney didn't. His people figured it out on their own (but they had no idea of knowing it wasn't a game).

The Geldars stole coal, yes. Was this wrong? Yes. The Hallonan response was to start a full-scale war (sure, they began with just attacking the mines and taking it over peacefully. But shortly after, they marched into Geldar (with their entire army), no doubt seeking war.

You really think this is better than just capturing those invading their country?

I'm glad to see you agree with me on John's immaturity after they found out it was a game (and were desperately trying to prevent a war from breaking out!).

Yes, I really believe that the peaceful stand-down and then defensive counter actions are better than resorting to like-minded criminal activity. They had to advance in the first place because of someone else's criminal activity. I don't believe war is good, but I do believe it sometimes becomes a necessity and believe it a better option than becoming criminals in return.
Some will argue that war is also criminal activity, and of course at some point it can be as well. But I do not see defending yourself as criminal. If someone attacks me, I will try to defend myself. And then try to put them in jail. Not the other way around. I have to be alive and around to even have the ability or option to put them in jail.
I hardly think Rodney's people would have taken arrest and imprisonment peacefully. I hardly doubt the remainder of the country would find a ransom demand peaceful either.
If I don't defend myself, I most likely will find myself in eventual entrapment with who knows how deadly an outcome. It was coal and invasion today. Who knows what it would have tomorrow. I have to believe John's people would have thought the same. If someone comes at me, I believe I have the fundamental right to protect myself.

We're obviously not going to agree, but that's ok! Thank you for further clarifying your viewpoint. While I don't agree, I do understand it better now. Thank you.

[FallenAngelII]

My point is: Was the Geldar theft worthy of going to war against?

War should always be the last resort. And you should never start war pre-emptively.

[LoveConquers]

My point is: Was the Geldar theft worthy of going to war against?

War should always be the last resort. And you should never start war pre-emptively.

My point is yes, it was. That theft was more than just theft. It was also an invasion. It was that which started the war, not what I believe is the basic and fundamental act of defending yourself. At the point that John's army was forced to respond, the war, IMO, had already begun.


ETA: I must go now, but thank you for a most interesting discussion! My apologies to everyone for hogging the thread. Thank you.

[FallenAngelII]

My point is yes, it was. That theft was more than just theft. It was also an invasion. It was that which started the war, not what I believe is the basic and fundamental act of defending yourself. At the point that John's army was forced to respond, the war, IMO, had already begun.


ETA: I must go now, but thank you for a most interesting discussion! My apologies to everyone for hogging the thread. Thank you.

Invasion? Building an underground mine and stealing coal = Invasion?!

Am I invading France if I dig under the Paris bank and steal some of their money?! It was a 100% pacific act of theft.

[LoveConquers]

Invasion? Building an underground mine and stealing coal = Invasion?!

Am I invading France if I dig under the Paris bank and steal some of their money?! It was a 100% pacific act of theft.

The leaders of one country ordering their army illegal entrance into another country with ill-intent? Yes, invasion. They had tunneled three miles into another country, with full intention of going further and stealing their resources. Yes, it is considered an invasion for one country to fly into another country's airspace or for another country's army to set boots on another country's soil without authority. This has been well-established throughout history as the cause of many wars. It was this invasion of territory that started the war, not the defense of it.
It is your opinion it was passive. I think you would be hard pressed to find a country that would feel the same about another country entering their land without sole consent, without sole mention of intention, after having already been refused the resource, and after having already had straining tensions.

And now, I truly am leaving.

[caty]

He could at least have negotiated. From what I got from the episode, John got offended by Rodney's initial offer and then refused all furhter negotiation. Of course, that's Rodney's fault.

You said so yourself. John prepared his country for the worst case scenario. It was that preparation that inevitably lead to war. Had he not done it, they still be two countries in peace with some tension over a botched deal instead of wanting to rip each other's throats out.

John also inflamed it further with the gifts that he knew Rodney was allergic to (be it for fun or not).

Of course they both thought it was a game, but you must admit that had John not sent those gifts or prepared for war, which prompted Rodney to respond, the war would not have come to be.

Yes, it wasn't his fault that the war started per se. But he was one who did the big things. Plus the ill blood he kept showing around Baten when trying to negotiate a truce, always repeating how the other side was cheating and agreeing with Baten on how bad they were.

Sidenote: Not approving of everything a character does does not equal hating them. So I disapprove of his sexual adventures and what he did in this episode. Obviously I must hate him.

You are intentionally ignoring any valid point I or other posters make, because your whole argumentation just lacks common sense (And no, I still won't call you 'stupid' or 'an idiot' because you have a different opinion)

What John did was a fair reaction to the build up Rodney started.
Baten himself said that the offer to negatiate from Nola was an insult, so why keep negotiating? The citrus was just an answer to Geldars insult (and you're acting like the Geldarians were allergic to Citrus... They weren't. They just didn't like it all of a sudden, because the oracle told them to. "You didn't used to" hate Citrus, Baten said so himself).
Would you keep negotiating with me if I offered you two Euros for your house?

And YOU must admit: Had Rodney not insulted the Hallonans with his serious and unfair trade offer, John would have never increased his army and it never would have come to this...
The 'would haves'... You'll never get far with argumenting with 'would haves'..

No matter how you twist the facts to make it fit to your argument, you won't convince me that it was all John's fault... It just wasn't!
They were equally at fault...

[FallenAngelII]

The leaders of one country ordering their army illegal entrance into another country with ill-intent? Yes, invasion. They had tunneled three miles into another country, with full intention of going further and stealing their resources. Yes, it is considered an invasion for one country to fly into another country's airspace or for another country's army to set boots on another country's soil without authority. This has been well-established throughout history as the cause of many wars. It was this invasion of territory that started the war, not the defense of it.
It is your opinion it was passive. I think you would be hard pressed to find a country that would feel the same about another country entering their land without sole consent, without sole mention of intention, after having already been refused the resource, and after having already had straining tensions.

And now, I truly am leaving.

Do you really think they sent their army to do the tunnel digging and coal mining instead of scientists, engineers and coal miners?!

What kind of idiots sents soldiers to do that kind of jobs?!

You are intentionally ignoring any valid point I or other posters make, because your whole argumentation just lacks common sense (And no, I still won't call you 'stupid' or 'an idiot' because you have a different opinion)

What John did was a fair reaction to the build up Rodney started.
Baten himself said that the offer to negatiate from Nola was an insult, so why keep negotiating? The citrus was just an answer to Geldars insult (and you're acting like the Geldarians were allergic to Citrus... They weren't. They just didn't like it all of a sudden, because the oracle told them to. "You didn't used to" hate Citrus, Baten said so himself).
Would you keep negotiating with me if I offered you two Euros for your house?

And YOU must admit: Had Rodney not insulted the Hallonans with his serious and unfair trade offer, John would have never increased his army and it never would have come to this...
The 'would haves'... You'll never get far with argumenting with 'would haves'..

No matter how you twist the facts to make it fit to your argument, you won't convince me that it was all John's fault... It just wasn't!
They were equally at fault...

John sent the citrus (and from the sound of it other things), which insulted Rodney, which the villagers took as a great insult as well. It was juvenile.

Rodney gave John a bad trade offer and he increased his army (you make it sound like the increase was a result of the trade offer). Does that sound like a logical step to you? John increased his army because Rodney gave his people technology. Instead of giving his own people technology, he just inflated his army, as if that'd be the answer.

I never said Rodney wasn't guilty. On the contrary, I said he had a part in it as well and that he did quite a few things that played a part of it.

However, all of Rodney's actions were indirect causes. All of John's were direct. Especially after they discovered it wasn't a game, what with the constant name-calling and show of animosity around Baten, including agreeing with Baten on certain things like how attacking would've been a good thing to do.

[Linzi]

Do you really think they sent their army to do the tunnel digging and coal mining instead of scientists, engineers and coal miners?!

What kind of idiots sents soldiers to do that kind of jobs?!


John sent the citrus (and from the sound of it other things), which insulted Rodney, which the villagers took as a great insult as well. It was juvenile.

Rodney gave John a bad trade offer and he increased his army (you make it sound like the increase was a result of the trade offer). Does that sound like a logical step to you? John increased his army because Rodney gave his people technology. Instead of giving his own people technology, he just inflated his army, as if that'd be the answer.

I never said Rodney wasn't guilty. On the contrary, I said he had a part in it as well and that he did quite a few things that played a part of it.

However, all of Rodney's actions were indirect causes. All of John's were direct. Especially after they discovered it wasn't a game, what with the constant name-calling and show of animosity around Baten, including agreeing with Baten on certain things like how attacking would've been a good thing to do.

Many of your posts are full of embellishments of what you perceive to have gone on behind the scenes, if you stick to the facts as they were presented in the episode this much is clear:
Hallona and Geldar were neighbouring countries who got along just fine before John and Rodney started playing their game.
John built up his army is response to Rodney cheating and giving advanced technology to his country. Both men bestowed their wisdom and ethos' on their own countries. McKay's country revered him as a god, having his face on flags, foisting his dislike of citrus on his people, and teaching them that technology was vital to development etc...I'd hardly say some of those things are mature, by the way. John's people didn't even know who he was. The problems really began when the two countries were at an impasse on trade negotiations. When Geldar were dsicovered to be invading Hallona's land and trying to steal their resources the situation became desperate. That incursion is an act of war, but actually Sheppard tried really hard to dissuade his country from attacking, he told them to trade the coal for things they needed. Not once did Rodney tell Geldar to stop drilling.
However, as I've said many times, both Sheppard and McKay were playing a game! They were both responsible for shaping their countries into what they became, but they were trying to win a game, pure and simple. Both of them could have put aside their differences immediately and worked to help restore peace, but they were bickering so much this didn't happen.
The key for me though, is that it was Sheppard who came up with the plan to show both countries the error of their ways. As a soldier, he's seen war first hand, and he used that experience to make a realistic scenario showing both countries what would happen if they carried on the way they were. Thus the military man actually USES war to show how awful it is. That shows true intelligence.

[FallenAngelII]

It's not an invasion. It's like saying if I sent ten people into your country to steal an Ipod, it's an invasion. It's not an act of war. It's an act of theft, yes. A very serious one.

Not an invasion and not an act of war.

While Rodney fostered a land of scientists and, ultimately, coal thieves, John fostered a land of warriors expecting the Geldars to attack. Then when the Geldars' theft was discovered, they went to war (against the entire country).

John tried to dissuade Baten from attacking, yes. But when Baten asked is attacking wouldn't be John's response, he just got a tight-lipped look on his face and stayed quiet.

He also kept repeating the word "cheating" again and again (in Baten's presence!) and kept bickering with Rodney (in Baten's presence!).

If I'm playing an RTS and an ally or a former ally (one I'm not currently fighting) impeached on my territory, I'd smite whoever's doing the impeaching. I'd demand compensation. But I wouldn't immediately launch a full-scale attack on their entire empire.

No one should.

Imagine the Saudi government sending 20 people to steal, oh, say, diamonds from the United States. Now imagine George W. Bush discovering it and waging war on Saudi Arabia.