Condemned (205)

[ToasterOnFire]

Meh. Not a great ep, but not a bad one either. Just something to pass the time until Trinity. All the inconsistencies pointed out by ealier posts did cause problems though. Some more thoughts:

-Can someone tell me if the PJs cannot go through the gate cloaked? Because I have no idea why Weir's PJ would go through the gate uncloaked to the planet, giving a few seconds of visibility before cloaking rather than just cloaking before leaving Atlantis.

-Weir had some nice moments during the negotiation, but I thought her reaction to the minister at the end was a bit over the top.

-I also wonder what happened to the prisoner who aided them and went back to Atlantis, as well as the rest of the prisoners. I'd imagine we'll be seeing one or both of them again...

-Was their any discussion about the events of Duet this ep?

-Still iffy on Ronan, but I did appreciate how he stuffed his pockets with food.

-Not much for Teyla to do, but then again there was no Beckett at all this ep. Odd that TPTB moved him up to the credits and yet we see hardly any of him at all. Are there any rumors/spoilers for stories with him this season? I'm a bit worried he may be the next Ford, not Teyla.



And speaking of Teyla,

I have yet to see Teyla in full uniform. She may have the jacket, but that silly purple halter top is always on underneath. .and she usually finds a reason to take off the jacket so we can all see she has a belly button.

Seriously? Because there were plenty of times in season one where Teyla wore the full uniform, no purple peeking through, when she was offworld or hunting wraith on Atlantis. There were times when we never saw what she was wearing underneath, so she certainly could have been wearing the "full" uniform. One would assume that Shep, Ford, and other military personnel wore the "proper" undershirts, but can you be sure they did since we never saw underneath?

Besides, since she is not US military she is under no obligation to wear the entire uniform when offworld, or even any part of the uniform (anyone who knows the regs is free to correct me regarding this though). Ronan certainly isn't wearing a uniform and I imagine he isn't going to start anytime soon.

[Daniel's_twin]

Ok, I watched this at my grandparent's, so I wasn't able to see all of it, but from what I saw it was an alright episode. They've had stronger and more interesting episodes in the past, but this one was pretty good too. It was rather interesting to see the Wraith eat actual food. Kinda answers the question of whether the Wraith need to eat humans. It was also a good way of showing, don't make deals with the devil, he always wins.

I give this ep three and a half stars out of five.

[Furling God]

The fact that one cruiser was shot by a drone probably lead to the wiping out of the entire Olisian civilization.

[Avatar28]

The fact that one cruiser was shot by a drone probably lead to the wiping out of the entire Olisian civilization.

I think it would have been wiped out anyways. Considering that their appeared to be several wraith crusiers, it's obvious that there was more than just the one wraith involved. He just came through in a dart, after all. The fact that there were cruisers showing up proves that other wraith were now aware of the planet. Even if they didn't need as many people as possible for food, they would still have wiped out the population just because they WERE advanced enough to be a threat to them.

[Uber]

The disregard for life seems to be getting worse and worse. When lyou ook a little deeper, this ep was about the genocide of an important civilization. It was said that crime was almost non-existant. And their tech had made huge leaps and strides over everyone else the teams have encountered. They looked a couple hundred years ahead of pre-Asgard-alliance Earth. And now that Sheppard freed all the murders, that planet is gone.

The Wraith Cruisers were over the island, which made it look like the 'deal' was still valid. But with no prisoners, they'll go to the mainland. And thousands of law abiding, civilized people will die. All because Sheppard screwed up and lost his guns and made a quick, thoughtless decision.

Like a previous poster said, this ep had a lot of traits of the last couple of seasons of Andromeda, and thats not a good thing.

D

Wow...I'm curious by what you seem to be implying here because I think I completely disagree with what you're saying. What did you mean when you say that Sheppard "made a quick, thoughtless decision"? it intrigues me and leads me to ask you...

What then was Sheppard to do?

He didn't have the means to take out several wraith cruisers. He had two responsibilities and he fulfilled them. First is to protect his team...and second to help as many innocent people as he could help. He was able to assist those on the island and got them all to safety and he did that.

Given the circumstances, I again ask what else could he have done but ensure the safety of as many innocents as he could and his team as well? Because the Wraith were there to feed off of people...either the ones on the island or the ones on the continent. Then end proved they aren't picky...So then he didn't have the chance because they were trapped...but had he the opportunity...should he have abandoned the people on the island to die at the hands of the Wraith?

From what I could see, what happened at the end was not Sheppard's fault on any level. It would have happened eventually I think...it's just that due to the circumstances it happened sooner rather than later.

The magistrate was foolish and short sighted and cowardly and treacherous. None of that was Sheppard's doing. He's the one who sacrificed those deemed of less value for the sake of those he deemed of value...and boy is our own history chock full examples of this dangerous philosophy. Anytime in human history when one group of people labels another group of people as being of lesser value (by age or race or whatever)...typically for the sake of having a permission of sorts to commit attrocities for their own selfish gains...the end is always a nightmarish catastrophe. And this fictional example is no exception.

The truth is that the outcome was going to be bad for a lot of people on that planet no matter what Sheppard did that day. Sheppard just ensured that the Wraith had a few less people to victimize...

As for the conclusion of the episode, I found the prospect of the Wraith cruiser hovering over the city and the horrified expression of the magistrate to be both poignant and horrifying...a tragedy for a lot of innocent people doomed to be decimated by the Wraith and an apro pos ending for the fool who condemned others so recklessly.

[derrickh]

He had two responsibilities and he fulfilled them. First is to protect his team...and second to help as many innocent people as he could help. He was able to assist those on the island and got them all to safety and he did that.

And this is Sheppard's huge character flaw. His first responsibility is NOT to protect his team. His first responsibility is to protect Atlantis. His second is to protect innocents. And then he gets to worry about saving his own butt. There's a good chance he blew Atlantis' cover by using a drone. He definately blew it's cover by telling the head murderer about Atlantis. Sure, it's 'possible' that the lead murderer won't be able to tell anyone. But there's a chance he could.

He didn't help any innocent people. Those people were tried and convicted of heinous crimes by thier society. Remember, the false arrests didn't start happening until Weir showed up. Everyone on that island was a top level bad guy. So instead of helping innocents, Sheppard freed the guilty to save himself. There was no other way out? Really? A bunch of guys with a couple of guns and big sticks are enough to make Sheppard crumble and give in? This is the same guy who held off a SuperWraith with a bunch of fireflies. Ronon had survived being hunted and held up against SuperFord. Rodney is a genius. Teyla.. well.. Teyla is pretty and can hit people with sticks. With all of this, the only solution Sheppard could come up with was 'Let the prisioners go so the Wraith can feed on the people on the mainland'. You say he protected the innocent. I say he did the exact opposite.

should he have abandoned the people on the island to die at the hands of the Wraith?

Actually, thats exactly what he should have done.

The magistrate was foolish and short sighted and cowardly and treacherous. None of that was Sheppard's doing. He's the one who sacrificed those deemed of less value for the sake of those he deemed of value

This is where a lot of people are missing something. The magistrate didn't chose the people on the island. Their Society did. They took thier worst criminals, people who would've gotten the death penalty in the US. These people got trails, were convicted, and sentenced. Only in the last few HOURS did the magistrate go goofy and start dumping innocent people in Jail. But none of those people were on the Island. Its possible the public outcry would've reversed the arrests. But we'll never know, because with no one on the island, the Wraith will head into the cities. And kill everyone.

D

[Tok'Ra Hostess]

His first responsibility is to protect Atlantis.

He refused to dial Atlantis as long as the prisoners were still on the island and capable of fleeing there. Even with the Wraith right above them Sheppard said that there was no way he was letting the bad guys go to Atlantis.

Check.

His second is to protect innocents.

He protected as many innocents as could get through the gate which Rodney opened onto what world Sheppard didn't have time to discuss, given that there were hungry Wraith about. If some dangerous criminals escaped along with the increasingly growing number of lesser offenders and out-and-out innocents, then so be it. Sheppard didn't have the time or the means to mount an Inquiry into each prisoner's background.

Check.

And then he gets to worry about saving his own butt.

He and his team were the last through the gate, after all the prisoners had escaped eelsewhere.

Check.

There's a good chance he blew Atlantis' cover by using a drone. He definately blew it's cover by telling the head murderer about Atlantis.

1) Cover was blown by the uncloacked PJ just being there.
2) Shep told the magistrate that they were survivors of the Wraith destruction of Atlantis. Great cover.

He didn't help any innocent people. Those people were tried and convicted of heinous crimes by thier society. Remember, the false arrests didn't start happening until Weir showed up. Everyone on that island was a top level bad guy.

Nope. Not so. Not at all. Not even close.

The young guy who helped Shep and co escape was there because he killed a guy by accident. And he said that there were a lot of peoiple there for petty crimes, that the crime level had dropped so dramatically in the city that the magistrate had significantly lowered the bar just to keep the Wraith feeding stock up. The female aide to the magistrate admitted the same thing to Weir, and she said something to the effect that this latest round up was the worst of many.

This is where a lot of people are missing something. The magistrate didn't chose the people on the island. Their Society did. They took thier worst criminals, people who would've gotten the death penalty in the US. These people got trails, were convicted, and sentenced. Only in the last few HOURS did the magistrate go goofy and start dumping innocent people in Jail.

May I suggest you watch this ep again, and listen to the dialogue?

[SierraGulf1]

A bunch of guys with a couple of guns and big sticks are enough to make Sheppard crumble and give in? This is the same guy who held off a SuperWraith with a bunch of fireflies. Ronon had survived being hunted and held up against SuperFord. Rodney is a genius. Teyla.. well.. Teyla is pretty and can hit people with sticks. With all of this, the only solution Sheppard could come up with was 'Let the prisioners go so the Wraith can feed on the people on the mainland'. You say he protected the innocent. I say he did the exact opposite.

I would say yes, a bunch of people with weapons pointed right at Sheppard did leave him no choice. I don't care how good Ronon's weaponry skills are, how smart Rodney is, how resourceful Sheppard is, or how good a warrior Teyla is, none of them could dodge/survive a bullet from that close range. To try something else and succeed would be even moreso unrealistic. Ford is the only one who can shrug off bullet shots.

It would have killed them. Atlantis's cover could have been blown anyway. Sheppard did what he could.

[mmu_man]

It's Olesia, Alesia being a french town the romans sieged to take over france some two thousand years ago.

Who said the 'cultured' Wraith took out the entire world on itself ?
As P90 said I assume he might have eat their leader and leave the others for later lunches (lol yeah fast food sounds funny, though that 'cultured' Wraith will probably dislike cheap food and Manburgers). Maybe in a later ep some survivors (led by Marin ?) could contact our team and seek rescue.
Either they have the DHD hidden in some place or they could find it along with the address of atlantis, not knowing what it is since it's supposed to be destroyed... hmm but how would they get through the shield ... ? Or maybe they could send a message, they have radio tech after all, probably compatible with ours as indicated by shep using their radio station.
Or the team could see them while taking out the fallen jumper back for repair/spare parts ?

As for the bad guy finding out McKay as the scientist, well he was the only one without weapon when they got out of the jumber, with the other ones around him in first line...

Remember, the false arrests didn't start happening until Weir showed up. Everyone on that island was a top level bad guy.

Marin said to Weir that arbitrary arrests happened already.

[entil2001]

I wasn’t all that impressed with this episode, because from my perspective, it was way too easy to predict what would happen. Was it really such a shock that the Olesians were allied with the Wraith in some way? And that it would ultimately backfire? There was enough predictability that the character moments, especially the more obvious ones, were more annoying for it.

Once again, there’s an episode that prominently features McKay. Clearly, he’s a favorite among the writing staff, and there’s plenty of agreement among the viewers that he’s a strong character. But he’s rapidly falling into the “too perfect” category. Despite all of his character flaws, he’s always pulling something impossible out of his hat. It becomes a case of letting one character get away with the impossible with the convenient stroke of a pen. Characters should never be that enormously competent.

That’s not to say that this episode doesn’t try very hard to explore who McKay is and how he operates. It’s just not an amazing revelation. Yes, Rodney tends to claim that something is beyond impossible, only to find the miraculous solution when (perhaps subconsciously) it makes him look the best. But what I’m waiting for (and I imagine many others anticipate the same) is the moment when he really, truly cannot make it happen. It’s been on the table before, but not enough to really make McKay step back and evaluate his methods.

But note that the plot becomes so dominated by this exploration of the more obvious side of McKay’s personality that Sheppard, Teyla, and Ronon become overshadowed. Ronon gets a moment of characterization here and there, but it’s largely a matter of showing how he must resist his more primal urges and his old way of life. Teyla is once again left to stare intriguingly at Ronon and toss out a few fight scenes, in between looking rather hot in that tight halter. Sheppard gets to be flippant in the face of danger. We’ve seen it all before.

One highlight? Weir’s showdown with the Magistrate. Whatever tensions might exist between the military and civilian authorities, they disappear when common interests are at stake. Weir knows her resources, and she uses them effectively and without hesitation when the cards are on the table. It’s a great scene, hands down, and one of Weir’s shining moments.

The concept is vaguely interesting, but the whole question of how justice can be perverted to serve the needs of the elite doesn’t quite gel (at least for me). This episode felt like a way to remind the audience that the Wraith, once awakened, are out there in greater numbers than the food sources in Pegasus can reasonably sustain. This keeps the tension high, since few worlds will be free of Wraith culling operations.

Will the released prisoners become a recurring issue, much like the Genii in the first season? I personally hope that they are used sparingly, if at all. I simply don’t think of them as compelling villains or convincing allies. Eldon could be useful eventually, but for now, he’s just a plot device. The only real surprise of the episode was that Torrell didn’t kill Eldon outright.

Even if it wasn’t to my tastes, the episode was otherwise solid. Not everyone is going to think that this was predictable, and not everyone is as tired of McKay grabbing the spotlight as I’ve become. On the other hand, I can’t be the only one thinking that the writers need to start spreading the love around. After all, the next episode looks to be another McKay-centric tale, so sooner or later, it’s going to get old for everyone.

[Uber]

And this is Sheppard's huge character flaw. His first responsibility is NOT to protect his team. His first responsibility is to protect Atlantis. His second is to protect innocents. And then he gets to worry about saving his own butt. There's a good chance he blew Atlantis' cover by using a drone. He definately blew it's cover by telling the head murderer about Atlantis. Sure, it's 'possible' that the lead murderer won't be able to tell anyone. But there's a chance he could.

He didn't help any innocent people. Those people were tried and convicted of heinous crimes by thier society. Remember, the false arrests didn't start happening until Weir showed up. Everyone on that island was a top level bad guy. So instead of helping innocents, Sheppard freed the guilty to save himself. There was no other way out? Really? A bunch of guys with a couple of guns and big sticks are enough to make Sheppard crumble and give in? This is the same guy who held off a SuperWraith with a bunch of fireflies. Ronon had survived being hunted and held up against SuperFord. Rodney is a genius. Teyla.. well.. Teyla is pretty and can hit people with sticks. With all of this, the only solution Sheppard could come up with was 'Let the prisioners go so the Wraith can feed on the people on the mainland'. You say he protected the innocent. I say he did the exact opposite.


Actually, thats exactly what he should have done.




This is where a lot of people are missing something. The magistrate didn't chose the people on the island. Their Society did. They took thier worst criminals, people who would've gotten the death penalty in the US. These people got trails, were convicted, and sentenced. Only in the last few HOURS did the magistrate go goofy and start dumping innocent people in Jail. But none of those people were on the Island. Its possible the public outcry would've reversed the arrests. But we'll never know, because with no one on the island, the Wraith will head into the cities. And kill everyone.

D

Tok'ra Hostess replied to most of this but a few other points...We WATCHED him condemn a woman...we saw it happen. And just because there would be a kangaroo court to determine her guilt or innocence, it was made clear her fate was predetermined. By whom? The magistrate.

Further, the idea of leaving even those you would deem the worst of the worst on an island to have their life sucked out is what I'd call cruel and unusual punishment. There's nothing civilized about a people that sacrifice others to protect themselves...especially when, as the woman was telling Weir, that more and more people are being taken to the island for lesser and lesser offenses. Did their society want to execute the murderers? Fine...that's their prerogative. But leaving them to have their life sucked out of them just as a buffer to protect the rest of their society is morally indefensible.

I thought about the issue of the drone but as TH pointed out, I'm fairly sure the crashed puddlejumper was a big enough clue for the Wraith.

And as for abandoning the people on that island to the Wraith, that clearly was not an option as they were all held at gunpoint. As you may or may not recall, Sheppard was trying to spirit his team off that island but got stopped by the natives. So abandoning them was simply not an option. Then with the wraith attacking, he had no choice...he had to help them.

He did protect Atlantis...and his team and as many people as he could.

So as far as those deemed guilty and innocent, you then agree with the idea of sacrificing people to the Wraith to protect others? It's ironic that the magistrate is the same guy from Demons as his role was nearly identical for a while.

And again, the point is that the society continued on and grew and thrived...because of this deal with the devil he made. They were on borrowed time for the getgo.

Is it a tragedy? No doubt. But countless worlds have been left in ruin by the Wraith.

Could anything have been done to prevent it? No.

[GatetheWay]

Once again, there’s an episode that prominently features McKay. Clearly, he’s a favorite among the writing staff, and there’s plenty of agreement among the viewers that he’s a strong character. But he’s rapidly falling into the “too perfect” category. Despite all of his character flaws, he’s always pulling something impossible out of his hat. It becomes a case of letting one character get away with the impossible with the convenient stroke of a pen. Characters should never be that enormously competent.

Where SGA has one "enormously competent" character, SG-1 has two: Sam Carter and Daniel Jackson. Sam is always accomplishing the impossible at the last minute and is very modest about it. Daniel seems to always be able to read anything that they come across no matter where they are. McKay is far less perfect then either of them and is more believable.

That’s not to say that this episode doesn’t try very hard to explore who McKay is and how he operates. It’s just not an amazing revelation. Yes, Rodney tends to claim that something is beyond impossible, only to find the miraculous solution when (perhaps subconsciously) it makes him look the best. But what I’m waiting for (and I imagine many others anticipate the same) is the moment when he really, truly cannot make it happen. It’s been on the table before, but not enough to really make McKay step back and evaluate his methods.

Can you say 'Trinity'?

[derrickh]

The recurring argument is that the Wraith would have eventually headed for the mainland so the civilation was on borrowed time anyway. I dont see that as an excuse for Sheppard to quicken it's demise. I don't see Cuba being able to sustain itself for another 100 years, but that doesnt mean it's ok to wipe it out now because Castro made a really bad deal.

Putting criminals on the island may be cruel and unusual for some. But it's better than a needle in the arm. If given the choice of a lethal injection, or being sent to an island where you have a small(very small) chance of escaping a culling, i think most would pick the island.

Another reccuring point is that the island was being filled wil lesser criminals. Even though the head bad guy was said to have killed 11 people. The guy that helped the team killed someone by 'accident'. Really? Drunk driving could be considered an accident. Shaking a child until it dies could be seen as an accident to the criminal. 'Accident' is how a lot of criminals justify the consequences of thier actions. Ronan said it himself, it's a story thats been told many times. Everyone is prison is innocent if you ask them. As far as we know, no one was on the island for jaywalking.
But I doubt we'll see eye to eye on this so I'll leave it.

Here's what is agreed on by most from the looks of it.
-Sheppard should have been cloaked. So his incompedence directly lead to the PJ getting shot down. And the downed PJ blew Atlantis' cover from the Wraith. And so...Protecting Atlantis...failed.

-The Wraith will wipe out the civilization now that the island is empty. Sheppard was the cause of the island to be empty. Protecting innocents...failed.

-Sheppard and his team made it safely through the gate. Protecting his team... success.

D

[GatetheWay]

Just because the team had Jumpers does not mean that Atlantis is still around. They could of easily of taken the Jumpers to their relocation site before they set off the self-destruct. Seems logical to me.

[Uber]

The recurring argument is that the Wraith would have eventually headed for the mainland so the civilation was on borrowed time anyway. I dont see that as an excuse for Sheppard to quicken it's demise. I don't see Cuba being able to sustain itself for another 100 years, but that doesnt mean it's ok to wipe it out now because Castro made a really bad deal.

Sheppard didn't actively hasten their demise. He saved his team. He helped those he could. He didn't create the nightmare that the planet was to endure...he just did the best he could in crappy circumstances.

You keep forgetting...he didn't have a choice. He couldn't just leave them there...they had guns to the heads of his team. There was no escape.

It wasn't as if Sheppard could say..."OK...I'll only help those who were falsely accused of a crime and the rest have to stay."

So if his team or if ANYONE for that matter was to make it out of that situation, Sheppard and Weir had to act fast.

Plus also remember there were several cruisers...like three if my memory serves. THREE WRAITH CRUISERS. So sure, the wraith would have started on that island, but there weren't nearly enough people there to satisfy them.

The mainland was doomed from the getgo.

Putting criminals on the island may be cruel and unusual for some. But it's better than a needle in the arm. If given the choice of a lethal injection, or being sent to an island where you have a small(very small) chance of escaping a culling, i think most would pick the island.

Hmm. Let's see...needle in the arm or living a horrific existence waiting for the day that a Wraith would take me to his ship and feed on me for who knows how long...

Tough one there...

Also you keep insisting that they are all criminals. It's clear from the magistrate, from Weir and her team and from the woman who tried to warn them that this was no longer the case. Sure there wre criminals on the island, but clearly they weren't all criminals. Just victims of a selfish man.

But again there were THREE CRUISERS. The Wraith was going to betray the magistrate...they just didn't get a chance to feed off of the island inhabitants first.

Another reccuring point is that the island was being filled wil lesser criminals. Even though the head bad guy was said to have killed 11 people. The guy that helped the team killed someone by 'accident'. Really? Drunk driving could be considered an accident. Shaking a child until it dies could be seen as an accident to the criminal. 'Accident' is how a lot of criminals justify the consequences of thier actions. Ronan said it himself, it's a story thats been told many times. Everyone is prison is innocent if you ask them. As far as we know, no one was on the island for jaywalking.
But I doubt we'll see eye to eye on this so I'll leave it.

I think the recurring theme of the episode was that although at one time the most serious, violent offenders were sent there, clearly that line moved back to the point where jaywalking would have gotten you sent to the island.

You also seem to forget that we witnessed an innocent woman be arrested. Why? For telling outsiders about her advanced world's dirty little secret and trying to warn them.

Here's what is agreed on by most from the looks of it.
-Sheppard should have been cloaked. So his incompedence directly lead to the PJ getting shot down. And the downed PJ blew Atlantis' cover from the Wraith. And so...Protecting Atlantis...failed.

As far as I know, flying with the cloak on all the time is not their standard prodecure...probably eats up a lot of energy. When they realized that they needed the cloak, that particular system had already been damaged. The fault is no ones.

-The Wraith will wipe out the civilization now that the island is empty. Sheppard was the cause of the island to be empty. Protecting innocents...failed.

Deal with the devil. Three Wraith cruisers. Small island population. You do the math.

-Sheppard and his team made it safely through the gate. Protecting his team... success.

Whoa! We agree here.