Before I Sleep (115)

[Draco_Astreus]

The multiverse theory for time travel never made sense to me. I agree, it conveniently solves continuity problems in science fiction, but I want to hear somebody who's actually well educated in modern quantum theory tell me that it's plausible and likely that whenever you go back in time you create an alternate universe.

OK well I've never ever posted here before, so hi everyone, but I read the threads here every now and then when I get a chance and felt the need to respond to this (BTW I thought this was a great ep!). I'm not exactly educated in modern quantum theory but being a long-time trekker, I've had a lot of experience with the various theories on time-travel (most of which have been used in trek at one point or another). This theory of creating alternate universes is actually the one I agree with the most out of all of them, so I think I can explain it pretty clearly.
Let's say you get in the time-travelling gateship , activate the time device thing, and go back into the past. Now see how you would normally think of this is that you actually go back into a time previous to the one you were on, within the same timeline, right? Well this isn't how it works, because think of if you did something there that changed the future in a way that wouldn't allow you to come back. In many time-travel scenarios, the timeline "resets itself" after things have been changed in the past. Now if this were true, the you that went back in time would be prevented from ever going back, so in the reset, the you that went back in time would be erased, but that would mean the timeline never reset itself. See? That doesn't work. Also, by going back in time, you defy the law of conservation of matter. You've removed matter from one point in time, and added matter to another point. So here's how it works: you can't travel through time. Instead, you travel to an alternate universe that you just created which is at a previous point in time from the one you were just in, but in all other ways the same (time has no meaning interdimensionally, in this theory). So, now you've actually moved from one universe to another. The total matter of everything hasn't changed. Now in this universe you do something to change the eventual outcome to whatever. Now, the catch is, what about the universe you were just in? This is the thing you might not realize, but that universe probably still exists. So in this case, everyone who died when Atlantis flooded is still dead, just not in the universe we're watching in this show. This explains how Wier was able to change the future, because where she came from she didn't actually change anything.

There I hope that makes sence, it's kinda freaky but there ya go.

Oh and I'd like to say that I really liked the flooding control room scene too. Some of the best fx I've seen yet in this ep.

[Giantevilhead]

It's stupid how Sheppard and Zelenka didn't survive since the Ancients have the power to bring people back from the dead.

[ShadowMaat]

As far as time travel goes, I know there's a lot of stuff out there, some which support the multiverse theory and some which strongly deny it.

The multiverse theory would be like taking a particle and making an exact copy of it (representing travel back in time). Now, as soon as you have two of the same particle, things are going to start changing. Minute variations and the general effects of the universe at large will affect each particle differently (welcome to chaos theory). Over time, those particles will become increasingly different, but they're still essentially the same particle. I dunno how well that theory holds up, though. I only have a tenuous grasp on the whole quantim mechanics thing. It could be more like taking a portion of the particle and splitting it off from the whole, but then I think theory dictates that they should keep vibrating on the same wavelength and thus be connected no matter how far apart (temporally or geographically) they are. Anyway, the point is, you now have two separate universes, which (as someone else just said above me) explains how McKay and company can be dead in one reality and alive in another. Both are equally true.

The singleverse theory implies that by going back in time, you affect things and thus collapse the wave-form that was your future, making it impossible to return. It gets very paradoxical because if that future doesn't exist, how can you go back in time? But while the wave-form of the future may not exist anymore, you idelibly do and you've now become a part of the NOW in the past. Which is either really simple or impossibly complex.

Feel free to poke holes in my guesswork. Between my incomplete understanding and the fact that I'm drugged to the gills on cold medicine, it's very likely that I'm completely wrong on all counts. But that's my current understanding of things and if someone knows more about it, I'd love to learn. I know there's stuff about waves being particles which ties into Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, but I'm not sure how it ties in, unless it has to do with observation (which would probably involve the whole cat-in-a-box thing).

Anyway, it's making my head hurt, so I'm gonna go get more orange juice and wander off to fluffier subjects.

[Shivan]

I enjoyed this episode! I enjoyed SG:1 much more but still. Last night was a Stargate night for BOTH episodes.

What more can I say?

[Bobthespirit]

I'd like to know more about Shep and Zelenka being killed and Weir being more or less OK. There was that vague "once I recovered" thing, but for someone who survived a ship falling out of orbit and crashing into the ocean, she looked remarkably good.

The ancients can heal you by touching you and concentrating real hard, remember?

[Bobthespirit]

OK well I've never ever posted here before, so hi everyone, but I read the threads here every now and then when I get a chance and felt the need to respond to this (BTW I thought this was a great ep!). I'm not exactly educated in modern quantum theory but being a long-time trekker, I've had a lot of experience with the various theories on time-travel (most of which have been used in trek at one point or another). This theory of creating alternate universes is actually the one I agree with the most out of all of them, so I think I can explain it pretty clearly.
Let's say you get in the time-travelling gateship , activate the time device thing, and go back into the past. Now see how you would normally think of this is that you actually go back into a time previous to the one you were on, within the same timeline, right? Well this isn't how it works, because think of if you did something there that changed the future in a way that wouldn't allow you to come back. In many time-travel scenarios, the timeline "resets itself" after things have been changed in the past. Now if this were true, the you that went back in time would be prevented from ever going back, so in the reset, the you that went back in time would be erased, but that would mean the timeline never reset itself. See? That doesn't work. Also, by going back in time, you defy the law of conservation of matter. You've removed matter from one point in time, and added matter to another point. So here's how it works: you can't travel through time. Instead, you travel to an alternate universe that you just created which is at a previous point in time from the one you were just in, but in all other ways the same (time has no meaning interdimensionally, in this theory). So, now you've actually moved from one universe to another. The total matter of everything hasn't changed. Now in this universe you do something to change the eventual outcome to whatever. Now, the catch is, what about the universe you were just in? This is the thing you might not realize, but that universe probably still exists. So in this case, everyone who died when Atlantis flooded is still dead, just not in the universe we're watching in this show. This explains how Wier was able to change the future, because where she came from she didn't actually change anything.

There I hope that makes sence, it's kinda freaky but there ya go.

Oh and I'd like to say that I really liked the flooding control room scene too. Some of the best fx I've seen yet in this ep.

But...that's an argument that the conventional idea of time travel -- travelling through time in the same universe, wouldn't work (And I could actually justify that if I tried hard enough).

It isn't an argument for the multi-universe time travel thing to be likely to happen, in real life. It seems just like a creative idea that *would* solve these problems with time travel, *if* it were true. I want to hear like a grad student in quantum physics tell me that this is the direct conclusion from current theory and evidence.

[buckner]

Forgive me if this has been mentioned before, I have read about half of this thread. Atlantis was under water and that the PJ out of atlantis into space so can the PJ's travel under water?

[ShadowMaat]

Forgive me if this has been mentioned before, I have read about half of this thread. Atlantis was under water and that the PJ out of atlantis into space so can the PJ's travel under water?

It has to do with the movement of celestial bodies. Specifically planets. The PJ didn't move in space, just time. The location of the landing bay in OUR time wouldn't necessarily match with the location of the landing bay 10,000 years ago. All it takes is the planet moving a little bit and suddenly you aren't underwater, you're in space!

[buckner]

But they were still trying to get the other PJ's out of the hanger bay. Plus the transport ship was trying to get past the wraith blockade so did it depart from atlantis? Or somewhere else on land.

[ShadowMaat]

But they were still trying to get the other PJ's out of the hanger bay. Plus the transport ship was trying to get past the wraith blockade so did it depart from atlantis? Or somewhere else on land.

Ahhhh. OK. I'd guess that they MUST be able to travel underwater. As Shep said, they have to be airtight to be spaceworthy and water is just really thick space, right?

Also, the death gliders in Descent were able to "fly" underwater, so I guess there's a precedent... of sorts...

[HIj'Qa]

It would have been a super perfect episode if Peter Wingfield had played Janus, so I could have my Methos / Highlander / Ancients tie-in!

[GatetheWay]

This ep. was fantastic! The make up on Weir to make her look old was very convincing and I forgot most of the time that it was TH acting second Weir.

Using scenes from the Rising mixed with ones reshot was done very well. When they were reporting the city being flooded I felt the same panic they did. During the part were the city was slowly but surly filling with water and trapping people I was thinking to myself 'Oh my gawd, this really could have happened to them. The whole Atlantis expedition could have easily been wiped out that fast. '

Usually the only emotional reasons I have to TV are ones of laughter but when McKay was watching the water flood the gate room, tears were jerking at my eyes. That scene was well shot and showed the panic and heroism of both McKay and Grodin. When Shep and Z died that seemed too sudden and undramatic compared to McKay's demise.

But even with all that sadness about their deaths, the present McKay and Sheppard did a fine job of lightening the mood with their back and forth.

This ep. explained quite a few things about the ancients and one of them being that the ancients can't think of everything.


Livy

[greytop]

One of the five gate address that old Weir had, it seems that they had already been too. Both Sheppard and Mckay mentioned. I presume that was the address for the ZPM the found in "Childhood's End."

[puddlejumper747]

My friend was over here watching this episode with me, and he raised a good question....that I really didn't know the answer to:
>>>If all Janus had to do was set the failsafe mechanism to make the city rise, then why did they even have to try to bother to rotate the ZPMs? I mean, other than Weir being able to see her team again, did they really accomplish anything whatsoever by going to all that trouble? Why couldn't she have just gone back to Earth with the rest of the Ancients, and then waited to see if Janus could build his second timeship to help her out?
But it was an awesome episode. Very cool. (I just felt bad for all those poor Ancients who were sent to make a peace treaty with the Wraith!!!)

[Lt. Elliot]

>>>If all Janus had to do was set the failsafe mechanism to make the city rise, then why did they even have to try to bother to rotate the ZPMs? I mean, other than Weir being able to see her team again, did they really accomplish anything whatsoever by going to all that trouble? Why couldn't she have just gone back to Earth with the rest of the Ancients, and then waited to see if Janus could build his second timeship to help her out?

You make a good point, but I think Janus didn't want the city to rise until the Atlantis team got there. Say the power ran out sooner than expected and it just rose, it could easily be accessible to the Wraith if they came by ship and there was no one to defend it. And Ancients live considerably longer than we do, so Weir could have died before Janus completed his second timeship, meaning Atlantis would end up lost once again if she didn't stay behind to save it.