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    #76
    For all we know, there may always have been a built in "identify incoming wormholes" feature in the stargate network that the SGC just never discovered.
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      #77
      Originally posted by Aadizookaan
      Any way, to end the useless debate on the Name of the Hologram Lady - Melia, her name is said quickly by Janus after the Council meeting.
      I'm still hearing her name as "Moros", or something along those lines....

      Edit: Okay, I take that back, that seems to be the name of the guy on the council..


      Originally posted by Aadizookaan
      To end speculation on what the Ancients call themselves - Atlantian - this is evidenced by the term ATLANTIAN COUNCIL, and Wier's conversation with Janus and Melia, "We call you the Ancients".
      They talked about the "Atlantean council", but refer to "Lantean ships", suggesting (at least to me) that the prefix "At-" refers to that city in particular (taking its name from the point of origin of Earth), and that 'Lantean' is the correct name for the race itself. That's also consistent with what the Wraith called them in The Defiant One..
      Last edited by UnknownJ; 07 December 2004, 05:02 PM. Reason: Change of mind..
      The Unknown James

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        #78
        A few issues I had were...

        1) The Atlanteans had superior medical technology yet some characters were depicted as aging. Hasn't it been explained that they didn't really age and had perfect health? Don't they have innate healing powers as well? I don't think that's just the case for ascended Ancients. They also thought in terms of human lifetimes ("It's impossible to predict what would happen in such a long period of time").

        2) They only left 10,000 years ago?!?! Didn't the Milky Way Ancients suffer a plague and ascend far earlier than that, i.e. millions of years ago? The Antarctic gate was dated to be 50 million years old... Didn't the Goa'uld rise to power well before this supposed 10,000 year old return? Every time they threw around that number it made me cringe...

        3) When they mentioned that humans were the "second evolution", it just seemed really awkward and out of place, especially since when Janus mentions, it sounds almost as if he has the same understanding of it as McKay or another current character has...

        4) Although this is to be expected, they didn't even touch on the language difference. Weir has been shown to understand Latin, so they could have had a short segment about her overcoming the language barrier.

        5) Why are they dressed like the Tok'Ra?

        The portrayal of the Ancients in this episode just seemed really inconsistent with SG-1 and even with episode 14. Inconsitencies aside, the episode was really enjoyable. I guess I've been spoiled by SG-1 to expect a consistent timeline.
        Last edited by Animaniac; 07 December 2004, 05:06 PM.

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          #79
          Originally posted by Animaniac
          A few issues I had were...

          1) The Atlanteans had superior medical technology yet some characters were depicted as aging. Hasn't it been explained that they didn't really age and had perfect health? Don't they have innate healing powers as well? I don't think that's just the case for ascended Ancients. They also thought in terms of human lifetimes ("It's impossible to predict what would happen in such a long period of time").

          2) They only left 10,000 years ago?!?! Didn't the Milky Way Ancients suffer a plague and ascend far earlier than that, i.e. millions of years ago? The Antarctic gate was dated to be 50 million years old... Didn't the Goa'uld rise to power well before this supposed 10,000 year old return? Every time they threw around that number it made me cringe...

          3) When they mentioned that humans were the "second evolution", it just seemed really awkward and out of place, especially since when Janus mentions, it sounds almost as if he has the same understanding of it as McKay or another current character has...

          4) Although this is to be expected, they didn't even touch on the language difference. Weir has been shown to understand Latin, so they could have had a short segment about her overcoming the language barrier.

          5) Why are they dressed like the Tok'Ra?

          The portrayal of the Ancients in this episode just seemed really inconsistent with SG-1 and even with episode 14. Inconsitencies aside, the episode was really enjoyable. I guess I've been spoiled by SG-1 to expect a consistent timeline.
          Yay! More fun for me.

          1- Ancients (Atlanteans, to be exact) aren't unaging. The oldest looking council member, although looking like he's about 50 in a current human lifespan, could be hundreds of years old. When Janus says "It's unpredictable what can happen in that much time" he's referring to a ZPM being drained before it's time, trapping and killing Weir, or the city being gated to from Earth BEFORE Atlantis Expedition (unlikely).

          2- There is no official canon depiction of when the plague happened. Even TPTB hasn't mentioned when it happens.

          3- Actually, that theory was first made by Dr. Janet Fraiser, when they find Aiyana in Antarctica. She implies that the Ancients must be the first evolution of a Human-like race, making us NOT the first. She bases that on theories that she read about, too. Thing is, that's what most likely happened.

          4- Ancients must have a Universal Translator system. Simple as that.

          5- If you notice, the Tok'Ra have dark brown pads on some of their suits. That aside, the Ancients in Atlantis must have used those clothes when in the city, where they don't need gear-filled armor or clothes. Timeline-wise, chances are the Tok'Ra are the ones who copied off of the Ancients. TPTB criticism-wise... Well, they may be low on budget for this season now...
          Enter my game site...

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            #80
            Well. This was an excellent episode. It shows a number of trivial little details about the Ancients, for example:

            The have two forms of stasis. Aiyana long-term-full completely frozen stasis, and the kind used in this episode.
            They store data on really neat looking purple things akin to Star Trek Isolinear chips.
            The recorded message was recorded by a member of the counsil
            THEY HAD WAR SHIPS! <sigh> I doubt we'll ever see one, though.


            Anyway, I liked this episode. It gave us a very nice look into the past of Atlantis, and proved that the Wraith couldn't take on the Ancients with equal numbers. If you watched the display screen, it took a HUGE swarm of what I can only assume were Hive Ships, since if they were darts, there would have been thousands of them, to take out a single Ancient ship.
            sigpic

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              #81
              No, those were Darts. The transport ship blip was much larger than the other blips for the Wraith ships.

              Besides, Darts can take out a PJ in.. what... 5 hits without a shield. With the shield, that many darts would drain it in less than a few seconds, only to vaporise the PJ during their last wave of fire.
              Enter my game site...

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                #82
                Another Excellent episode for Atlantis Season One . I have to agree with some of the previous viewers, every episode since the mid season break has been great. None of them have been a bore.

                I loved the Back to the Future jokes as well as character development, it is going very good. I am really starting to feel close to the characters, something that takes over a couple years on a show to happen.

                I am always worried about time travel episodes because A LOT of bad things can happen but this episode was executed very well. This episode reminds me a lot of a early Star Trek The Next Generation episode titled "Time Squared," where Captain Picard meets an alternate version of himself that has travelled back in time.

                I do have one nagging question about this episode though, EVERYONE should comtemplate this. Refer back to SG-1 episode "Point of View" when two Major Carters were in the same reality what about this episode?? Technically two Elizabeth Weir's were in the same reality and neither of them experienced that quantum flux thing that affected both Carters...

                Anyway the writers can't remember everything all the time. This was still a GREAT episode and another blue ribbon for Stargate Atlantis Season One.

                Lt. Ford to Dr Zelenka: "Is this some sort of payback for me beating up guys like you in high school?"
                - Stargate Atlantis: Season One - Hot Zone

                Dr. Beckett: "...Mom...I miss you terribly...*breaks down*...I can't do this!"
                - Stargate Atlantis: Season One - Letters from Pegasus

                Sen. Kinsey: "Do you trust this man?"
                Col. Jack O'Neill: "...No..."
                Mayboune: *shrugs*
                - Stargate SG-1 - Chain Reaction

                Stargate SG-1, Stargate Atlantis I love science fiction

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                  #83
                  Originally posted by Stargate Agent
                  I do have one nagging question about this episode though, EVERYONE should comtemplate this. Refer back to SG-1 episode "Point of View" when two Major Carters were in the same reality what about this episode?? Technically two Elizabeth Weir's were in the same reality and neither of them experienced that quantum flux thing that affected both Carters...
                  That was travel between different universes in the multiverse (McKay referenced the multiverse in this ep, but I don't think it really applied as much as it does to the Quantum Mirror.) This was time travel.

                  Originally posted by Gothann
                  All but Earth can dial in, but Janus must have set it to unlock the adresses from incoming wormholes upon the arrival of the Atlantis Expedition.
                  Yes. It would have been very stupid of him to make it more than a one time block.

                  However, It's good to know that the Atlantis Stargate has Caller-ID.
                  sigpic

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                    #84
                    interesting twist on the time travel.


                    they dont use one continuous time lloop - they use the whole "there are an infinite number of universes, one for every choice you could ever have made"

                    By usual time stuff:

                    If Weir by going back in time got to implement the failsafe, etc, and the time ship was gone, when the expedition came through Atlantis would not flood but rise. And there would be no timeship in the docking bay.

                    Weir would never go back in time and the implementing of the failsafe, etc would never have happened. And if none of it happened, they would drown,etc. So Weir would go back in time again.

                    It would continue as a loop.

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                      #85
                      Originally posted by Brassguy
                      If Weir by going back in time got to implement the failsafe, etc, and the time ship was gone, when the expedition came through Atlantis would not flood but rise. And there would be no timeship in the docking bay.

                      Weir would never go back in time and the implementing of the failsafe, etc would never have happened. And if none of it happened, they would drown,etc. So Weir would go back in time again.

                      It would continue as a loop.
                      SG1 Season 8 finale type spoilers:
                      Spoiler:

                      This episode would actually work quite well with the title "Moebius", since that's kind of how I see it. On a moebius strip, a line drawn down the centre will go once around one side, once around the other side, and back to where it starts - effectively covering two identical journeys on opposite sides of the strip.

                      So Dr Weir's actions create two realities - one where there were no failsafes, and one where there are. Each reality is dependent on the existence of the other. In our reality there was no timeship, which means nobody could go back to get the Ancients to build in failsafes, which created the catastrophe in the alternative timeline. Then in that timeline, there was a timeship, so they went back in time, got the failsafes put in, which created the nice happy outcome in our timeline.

                      Basically, each timeline creates (and maintains) the other. It deals with the Grandfather Paradox by constructing two universes, and making time travel possible provided it isn't within the same universe.

                      Wow, I'm making a weird type of sense here, which may not be sense at all. I guess my point is that from what I've seen of the brief plot outline of the SG1 finale, it looks like that's using a similar model of time travel too - two "presents" each one creating the other one.
                      The Unknown James

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                        #86
                        In contrary to "Point of View", as Stargate Agent described it, there are two Dr. Weir's in the same universe. The thing is, the one we're watching is from her own timeline, created after the events her own timeline where the AE was massacred. In essence, by going back in time to change something, she became part of that universe where two Dr. Weir people can exist from that choice made.
                        Last edited by Gothann; 07 December 2004, 08:11 PM.
                        Enter my game site...

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                          #87
                          Originally posted by Ancient-Jaron
                          Good episode. I went in expecting a lot, and came out feeling pretty good about it. I wish there had been more Ancients / Atlanteans interaction, but the story went well w/o it.

                          As for ships, I think that opening scene was a friendship thing. Thats how I interpretted it, in any case. And I don't know where the McKay / Teyla "ship" comes from, I haven't seen that in the Atlantis I've been watching...
                          Probably from an alternate Atlantis in an alternate timeline...
                          sigpic
                          "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"

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                            #88
                            Gotta say that I quite enjoyed the episode and sheds some light on the logistical issues of Atlantis still being here after 10,000 years...

                            I also really like the small touches of continuity, with 'Morros' being in the hologram, just like when the same actress in 'Frozen' was in the first shot of the Atlantis pilot...

                            But now having a point of comparison with Atlantean ships versus the Wraith ships, there's a logistical problem with the technology they use now- If the Atlantean vessels were only moderately more powerful than the Wraith ones 10,000 years ago, how is it possible that the PuddleJumpers they use now have any effect against the Wraith darts in the current timeline?? I assume that in that period the Wraith technology would have advanced significantly, or at least appropriated some of the Atlantean technology.

                            That would be somewhat like a clipper ships from the 1900's in battle against a modern Destroyer-class vessel, but with a even larger technological gap. I used to assume that the Atlantis ships were sufficiently advanced that the Wraith 'caught up' over time. This no longer seems to be the case...? The only thing I could think of is perhaps the Wraith were in hibernation for a large chunk of that time, but I think each period of hibernation is something like 100-500 years, nothing close to 10,000 years. I don't know if this has been discussed before in detail, please point me to the appropriate threads if it has!

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                              #89
                              First off, will people PLEASE remember that not everyone wants to know about Moebius and/or Siege, so please keep any comments about them in spoiler tags. Thank you.

                              Second, it was an interesting take on time travel. Personally, I'd liked to have seen a bit more of Weir and the various times she woke up to switch the ZPMs. I mean, did she really just wake up, switch them, and go back to sleep? Didn't she ever have the urge to... I dunno, live a little? So the stasis chamber only slows down metabolic processes and whatnot, it doesn't actually "freeze" them? That explains why she got so old. Even if lifesigns are slowed to a crawl, over the course of ten thousand years, the crawl still adds up.

                              I am proud to say that despite all the croonings of the Weir/Shep shippers, I still don't see it and I am very GRATEFUL that I don't see it since all the people screaming about Jack/Sam in SG-1 is what made me "see" it and that helped to ruin the show for me. I'll just ignore all future comments from shippers and stay blissfully unaware of that interpretation.

                              Loved that Rodney died a hero. Interesting that Wossname drowned instead of being eaten by the Wraith. I wonder if the Wraith ever even woke up in the original timeline. From the sound of it, not enough people survived (assuming the people trapped in the other puddle jumper even figured out/were able to fly it).

                              It would have been nice to see Old Weir's reaction to Teyla. "Who the hell are you?"

                              Originally posted by AsgardCarnage
                              and why was the passanger ship trying to break through a seige that had been going on for years why not use the stargate to get back to atlantis from where ever they were?
                              Because from what we understand, the Atlantis gate is the only one (or almost the only one) capable of reaching Earth. If they were trying to evacuate the galaxy, they'd need to get to Atlantis to do it. Maybe that's a big assumption on my part. I dunno what the energy levels of the other gates are like, but it's at least a possibility.



                              Originally posted by UglyPig
                              One problem, though: Obviously, in "our" reality, ever since Weir was born there has been two Weirs. One on Earth (and later in Atlantis) and one that was on Atlantis all along, in a stasis chamber. And yet, this never caused a "temporal entropic cascade failure on the cellular level".
                              Yes, I'd like this explained as well. Unless it's "different galaxy, different rules". Maybe it's just the slow adaptation process, but it still seems a little hinky to me. Old Weir changed the past/future and made it into "ours", but it doesn't change the fact that there are still two Weirs in one timeline... How was it explained in 1969?

                              LOVED the Back to the Future references. And I have to say, the portrayal of McKay and Shep were spot-on in this ep, at least from MY perspective. Loved McKay's jab at Shep, too, about not wasting ANOTHER opportunity to speak to an Ancient.

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                                #90
                                Originally posted by ShadowMaat
                                Yes, I'd like this explained as well. Unless it's "different galaxy, different rules". Maybe it's just the slow adaptation process, but it still seems a little hinky to me. Old Weir changed the past/future and made it into "ours", but it doesn't change the fact that there are still two Weirs in one timeline... How was it explained in 1969?
                                My wild, wild theory is that they are from the same universe (or at least, didn't cross the dimensional barrier), so the quantum signature of the two Weirs was the same, thereby preventing the problem with temporal entropic cascade.
                                Rocky

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