Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Southern Red]

*headdesks*

Fortunately they ended the ep the way they did, because if they used anything more shippy, they'd be waving a flag of "men sexually assault women because they have romantic feelings, aka they're turned on, and it's an act of primal nature and not aggression. Therefore sexual assault doesn't count as aggression".

Amd that's a very dangerous thing to promote in today's world. I heart JF to pieces, but he needs some education in social psychology. He's a good, but ultimately clueless about how these comments could be interpreted.

For umpteenth time - you. don't. promote. a. romantic. relationship. with. an. act. of. sexual. freaking. assault!

You hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately all 3 of those guys were a bit piggish on that commentary. Gero went on to say that at first he was a bit concerned that the kiss scene was a bit too forceful but he later decided nah, it wasn't. He said he usually wonders what would his mother think but decided she'd be okay with it. *snort* I think they should all ask their wives and sisters how fine they are with that sort of attack being depicted as being romantic. They may be surprised. I wanted to line them up and give all 3 of them a Three Stooges slap. It's interesting to note also that the editor of that one was a woman. JF also mentioned that they did the kiss scene a number of different ways one of which had Sheppard being very appalled at what he had done. Now I wonder why she didn't leave that one in. But still I think Teyla's scared out of her wits look said it all. And the last time we talked about this we got modded so I guess we need to move on. Lord knows we can't talk about anything that might be misconstrued. *insert sarcastic face*

I feel obligated to react.
WHY YOU WANT TO HURT ME?lol Your comment about the commentary for Sanctuary made me cry. Is anybody can tell me what's so good in this comment? The most important things....Or I will go in the house of someone in this thread. I can take a plane and be in the U.S. in one day.lol

You're welcome at my house anytime. We have 3 airports in the area. I'll even pick you up.

But I seem to remember that Torri and Rachel talked about Chai Tea. Was that in the Sanctuary commentary? It was very cute.

[Falcon Horus]

Well I must be the exact opposite of all those people because (and I'm ashamed to admit it now) I was anti-Weir-ish at first She just seemed kinda cold and stand off-ish to me the first time I saw Rising....

Good on for seeing the light...

On that notion - Sparky isn't my favorite ship. I'm a John/Kate shipper when it comes to het, and Teyla/Kate when it's slash. But I do ship Sparky + 1 (Kate/John/Elizabeth).

As far as I am concerned Sparky is as close to canon as it can be...
While my preferred ships are not (except Kate/Teyla maybe - no seriously, sometimes you'd swear they had something going on).

When? Where? When is it up?

Little Bang was up but I think you meant...

This year's Big Bang stories will go up sometime around November 12. Don't worry, I'll definitely be posting a link when the site goes live.

Because I have to disappoint you with my Little Bang - there's a brief mention of Elizabeth Weir. It's a AU (obviously since Kate's not dying) of season 4's Doppelganger, using elements of The Real World as basis. And it's Kate/Teyla in the end.

Although one of my readers considered one of my key-characters, Elizabeth in disguise.

[Probie]

You hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately all 3 of those guys were a bit piggish on that commentary. Gero went on to say that at first he was a bit concerned that the kiss scene was a bit too forceful but he later decided nah, it wasn't. He said he usually wonders what would his mother think but decided she'd be okay with it. *snort* I think they should all ask their wives and sisters how fine they are with that sort of attack being depicted as being romantic. They may be surprised. I wanted to line them up and give all 3 of them a Three Stooges slap. It's interesting to note also that the editor of that one was a woman. JF also mentioned that they did the kiss scene a number of different ways one of which had Sheppard being very appalled at what he had done. Now I wonder why she didn't leave that one in. But still I think Teyla's scared out of her wits look said it all. And the last time we talked about this we got modded so I guess we need to move on. Lord knows we can't talk about anything that might be misconstrued. *insert sarcastic face*



You're welcome at my house anytime. We have 3 airports in the area. I'll even pick you up.

But I seem to remember that Torri and Rachel talked about Chai Tea. Was that in the Sanctuary commentary? It was very cute.

Are you serious? Because if you are, I will take a plane tomorrow. (Yes I stay in France tonigh because of Vegas.lol). I can bring something. Tell me what you want. The only thing not good for you is that I probably have enough money to come but not enough to go back in France. You will have to adopt me. I give you a last chance to say "NO!".lol

[Anuna]

You hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately all 3 of those guys were a bit piggish on that commentary. Gero went on to say that at first he was a bit concerned that the kiss scene was a bit too forceful but he later decided nah, it wasn't. He said he usually wonders what would his mother think but decided she'd be okay with it. *snort* I think they should all ask their wives and sisters how fine they are with that sort of attack being depicted as being romantic. They may be surprised. I wanted to line them up and give all 3 of them a Three Stooges slap. It's interesting to note also that the editor of that one was a woman. JF also mentioned that they did the kiss scene a number of different ways one of which had Sheppard being very appalled at what he had done. Now I wonder why she didn't leave that one in. But still I think Teyla's scared out of her wits look said it all. And the last time we talked about this we got modded so I guess we need to move on. Lord knows we can't talk about anything that might be misconstrued. *insert sarcastic face*

Hehe, I think John's reaction they kept in the episode was quite okay too. it was like someone spilled a bucket of cold water over his head and he woke up from his Dr Jekyll/My Hyde dream and Teyla was looking at him terrified and he realized what he had done was wrong, but you could still see he was still high on adrenaline, and still messed up and it showed, IMO, just how serious his condition is/would become - IMO, they kept just the right reaction on John's part. JF's acting was great in that whole scene because he was damn scary, and Teyla was scared. The whole fighting sequence was about domination, and it was like he wasn't satisfied with winning in their sparring match, he wanted a complete domination and used the most disgusting male tactic of achieving it, and that's why that scene is quite powerful and it hits you straight in the gut - because it's not something John would naturally do, because he respects Teyla.

[Scary Kitty]

But I seem to remember that Torri and Rachel talked about Chai Tea. Was that in the Sanctuary commentary? It was very cute.

And yoga too, I think.

Hehe, I think John's reaction they kept in the episode was quite okay too. it was like someone spilled a bucket of cold water over his head and he woke up from his Dr Jekyll/My Hyde dream and Teyla was looking at him terrified and he realized what he had done was wrong, but you could still see he was still high on adrenaline, and still messed up and it showed, IMO, just how serious his condition is/would become - IMO, they kept just the right reaction on John's part. JF's acting was great in that whole scene because he was damn scary, and Teyla was scared. The whole fighting sequence was about domination, and it was like he wasn't satisfied with winning in their sparring match, he wanted a complete domination and used the most disgusting male tactic of achieving it, and that's why that scene is quite powerful and it hits you straight in the gut - because it's not something John would naturally do, because he respects Teyla.

Bingo. It's just enough to show that they're both freaked out about what happened without going totally overboard into melodrama. You made a very good point about John not being completely "snapped out of it" because he's still under the influence of the genetic changes that are racing through his body. It's because of this fact that I continue to hold to the opinion that John's actions in this episode are fueled by his whacked-out brain chemistry, and not by any hidden feelings. He'd never, ever do what he did if he was in his right mind.

Because I have to disappoint you with my Little Bang - there's a brief mention of Elizabeth Weir. It's a AU (obviously since Kate's not dying) of season 4's Doppelganger, using elements of The Real World as basis. And it's Kate/Teyla in the end.

Although one of my readers considered one of my key-characters, Elizabeth in disguise.

Heehee! Lizzie's ghost possessed someone!

[Southern Red]

Are you serious? Because if you are, I will take a plane tomorrow. (Yes I stay in France tonigh because of Vegas.lol). I can bring something. Tell me what you want. The only thing not good for you is that I probably have enough money to come but not enough to go back in France. You will have to adopt me. I give you a last chance to say "NO!".lol

I've always wanted a daughter so I'd love to adopt you. I'm sure my husband won't mind.

Hehe, I think John's reaction they kept in the episode was quite okay too. it was like someone spilled a bucket of cold water over his head and he woke up from his Dr Jekyll/My Hyde dream and Teyla was looking at him terrified and he realized what he had done was wrong, but you could still see he was still high on adrenaline, and still messed up and it showed, IMO, just how serious his condition is/would become - IMO, they kept just the right reaction on John's part. JF's acting was great in that whole scene because he was damn scary, and Teyla was scared. The whole fighting sequence was about domination, and it was like he wasn't satisfied with winning in their sparring match, he wanted a complete domination and used the most disgusting male tactic of achieving it, and that's why that scene is quite powerful and it hits you straight in the gut - because it's not something John would naturally do, because he respects Teyla.

And he sure wouldn't choke Elizabeth. By that time he was so far gone and she wasn't doing what he wanted that he lost it. But why didn't he kill her? I'd say because there was enough of John left to stop it. He wasn't seeing her as a woman by this time but as the leader of the city who was making decisions he didn't like. On the commentary they talked about how for this part they originally had more dialogue for John but Brad Turner the director told Gero that John was too far gone to talk a lot. So they cut most of his dialogue which made JF very happy. LOL So again, if he was that far gone the only thing that stopped bug!John from snapping her neck was his feelings for her.

A couple of other good parts in this episode that have been much discussed but never really explained are "it's better for the both of us" and the line about protocol being her answer for everything. Very very Sparky and hard to spin into something else.

[Scary Kitty]

And he sure wouldn't choke Elizabeth. By that time he was so far gone and she wasn't doing what he wanted that he lost it. But why didn't he kill her? I'd say because there was enough of John left to stop it. He wasn't seeing her as a woman by this time but as the leader of the city who was making decisions he didn't like. On the commentary they talked about how for this part they originally had more dialogue for John but Brad Turner the director told Gero that John was too far gone to talk a lot. So they cut most of his dialogue which made JF very happy. LOL So again, if he was that far gone the only thing that stopped bug!John from snapping her neck was his feelings for her.

*cracks up at the cut dialogue*

Seriously though, if John's supposed to be that far gone, it makes sense that he wouldn't say much. He'd be acting more and more on instinct that is becoming less and less human by the minute. Yet the part of him that is still human is strong enough to stop him from killing Elizabeth, and you're absolutely right, it's his feelings for her, just as it's his feelings for her that compels him to break quarantine to reach out to her in The Real World. *sighs*

A couple of other good parts in this episode that have been much discussed but never really explained are "it's better for the both of us" and the line about protocol being her answer for everything. Very very Sparky and hard to spin into something else.

I touched on it a little bit above, but I think it's sort of implied that as the alien side took more control, it stripped away many of his inhibitions. While the thing with Teyla seems to have been driven by the Wraith-ified DNA in him reacting to Teyla's Wraith DNA, his behavior with Elizabeth seems driven more by a loosening of the stranglehold he's had on his feelings when he's around her. He lets more of his guard down around her; he does this under more normal circumstances as well, but here the effect is intensified. Whether that's the desperation of the circumstances or something more... I say it's something more.

[Fionnait]

For umpteenth time - you. don't. promote. a. romantic. relationship. with. an. act. of. sexual. freaking. assault!

Tell that all the silly fanfic authors out there.

You're welcome at my house anytime. We have 3 airports in the area. I'll even pick you up.

Are you serious? Because if you are, I will take a plane tomorrow. (Yes I stay in France tonigh because of Vegas.lol). I can bring something. Tell me what you want. The only thing not good for you is that I probably have enough money to come but not enough to go back in France. You will have to adopt me. I give you a last chance to say "NO!".lol

Did I hear something about an international Sparky meeting at Southerns house


I ate too much chocolate... *feels sick* Maybe I should have watched a sparky episode instead?

[Probie]

I've always wanted a daughter so I'd love to adopt you. I'm sure my husband won't mind.

if you can bear the fact that I have 21 years, I can't speak english very well and I eat like an ogre then it's official, I'm your new daughter. *jumps into the arms of her new mother * Say "hi" to my new daddy.

I want to see "Conversion" now. Mom doesn't have time to watch Vegas so I will watch "Conversion".

[Eri13]

*cracks up at the cut dialogue*

Seriously though, if John's supposed to be that far gone, it makes sense that he wouldn't say much. He'd be acting more and more on instinct that is becoming less and less human by the minute. Yet the part of him that is still human is strong enough to stop him from killing Elizabeth, and you're absolutely right, it's his feelings for her, just as it's his feelings for her that compels him to break quarantine to reach out to her in The Real World. *sighs*

I touched on it a little bit above, but I think it's sort of implied that as the alien side took more control, it stripped away many of his inhibitions. While the thing with Teyla seems to have been driven by the Wraith-ified DNA in him reacting to Teyla's Wraith DNA, his behavior with Elizabeth seems driven more by a loosening of the stranglehold he's had on his feelings when he's around her. He lets more of his guard down around her; he does this under more normal circumstances as well, but here the effect is intensified. Whether that's the desperation of the circumstances or something more... I say it's something more.

The attack on Elizabeth also reminds me a little of one of the core principle of Othello, the breaking down of a 'marriage of the minds,' or the idea that mental love should be the basis for everything, to the lesser, and more potently evil, love, physical attraction.

In Othello, Iago, the villain, works on Othello's love of Desdemona by accusing her of having a physical relationship with another man. Eventually, the jealousy chips away at the mental bond Othello and Desdemona share, until Othello equates his own relationship with Desdemona as physical. It leads to a very aggressive ending--her death by strangulation at his hands.

With Elizabeth I see that scene with John as very similar. We see John's mental decline throughout Conversion, and the numerous scenes with Elizabeth show his slow regression in comparison to her stability. The attack on Elizabeth is much more calculated because it's a deeper breakdown of John's mind. John isn't going to lash out at Elizabeth early into his progression. Their mental understanding is too deep for that. He has to be close to completely gone to ever come close to hurting her. And, of course, he's not far gone enough to follow through--he can't.

Also interesting is how she supports him and remains close after that attack. She knows him far too well. The thing who attacked her was the Wraith, and the man she knows was what stopped it from killing her. So she doesn't run away in fear, she's beside him even after the attack.

Elizabeth and John to me are a good example of a 'marriage of the minds'. To really attack that bond, you better have a good reason behind it. Hence why the conflict in First Strike is so bitter and so much of a shock.

[Scary Kitty]

Tell that all the silly fanfic authors out there.

*snickers*

Did I hear something about an international Sparky meeting at Southerns house

I'll bring the wine!

I ate too much chocolate... *feels sick* Maybe I should have watched a sparky episode instead?

Awww... sounds like a Sparky episode is just the kind of medicine the doctor ordered!

[drewandian]

SK....I remember a while back, you posted that you'd like an autumn, snuggle on a blanket (on Earth, with Sedge) with hot cider Sparky fic (and I remember wanting to write it and I will...eventually...soon now that my writer's block has been broken )....anyway...I was listening to my MP3 player on shuffle today and this song popped up and I couldn't help but giggle a little and think of your fic idea....I seem to be sliding further and further into the gutter these days!

[Scary Kitty]

The attack on Elizabeth also reminds me a little of one of the core principle of Othello, the breaking down of a 'marriage of the minds,' or the idea that mental love should be the basis for everything, to the lesser, and more potently evil, love, physical attraction.

In Othello, Iago, the villain, works on Othello's love of Desdemona by accusing her of having a physical relationship with another man. Eventually, the jealousy chips away at the mental bond Othello and Desdemona share, until Othello equates his own relationship with Desdemona as physical. It leads to a very aggressive ending--her death by strangulation at his hands.

With Elizabeth I see that scene with John as very similar. We see John's mental decline throughout Conversion, and the numerous scenes with Elizabeth show his slow regression in comparison to her stability. The attack on Elizabeth is much more calculated because it's a deeper breakdown of John's mind. John isn't going to lash out at Elizabeth early into his progression. Their mental understanding is too deep for that. He has to be close to completely gone to ever come close to hurting her. And, of course, he's not far gone enough to follow through--he can't.

Also interesting is how she supports him and remains close after that attack. She knows him far too well. The thing who attacked her was the Wraith, and the man she knows was what stopped it from killing her. So she doesn't run away in fear, she's beside him even after the attack.

Elizabeth and John to me are a good example of a 'marriage of the minds'. To really attack that bond, you better have a good reason behind it. Hence why the conflict in First Strike is so bitter and so much of a shock.

*jaw hits floor*

Damn! Once again Eri, you've blown me away! That is such a fantastic comparison. I love when we can bring in famous literature to our discussions. I want to green you, but the board won't let me, so MENTAL GREEN!

Plus, I'll have you know, you've just spawned a plot bunny, and it's playing with my Big Bang bunny... I think they're conspiring on a sequel.

*goes to print out Eri's post*

[Erin87]

For fun, when you have a free day, go to page one of this thread and you can read how it started here. A few people meandered around the idea with Rising, and the end scene in 38 Minutes smacked a few people upside the head.

But, and perhaps this was no surprise, it seems like the bulk of shippers really set sail after The Storm/The Eye. That was what caught me. Still remains my favorite Sparky to this day (cuz I'm a sucker for high drama).

Ah Martin Gero. We shall forever thank you, even if you would kick yourself for it.

Yeah, me too. I don't know if it's my complete favorite or not (TRW comes close too (and that's such a hard decision!)), but I LOVE those episodes. I get all excited and squee just thinking about how John loses it.

I've always wanted a daughter so I'd love to adopt you. I'm sure my husband won't mind.



And he sure wouldn't choke Elizabeth. By that time he was so far gone and she wasn't doing what he wanted that he lost it. But why didn't he kill her? I'd say because there was enough of John left to stop it. He wasn't seeing her as a woman by this time but as the leader of the city who was making decisions he didn't like. On the commentary they talked about how for this part they originally had more dialogue for John but Brad Turner the director told Gero that John was too far gone to talk a lot. So they cut most of his dialogue which made JF very happy. LOL So again, if he was that far gone the only thing that stopped bug!John from snapping her neck was his feelings for her.

A couple of other good parts in this episode that have been much discussed but never really explained are "it's better for the both of us" and the line about protocol being her answer for everything. Very very Sparky and hard to spin into something else.

Ah yes, that is definitely Sparky. Because protocol hasn't been one of the things that we've seen them have disagreements about on screen (unless you count Hot Zone). So yeah, there's definitely a missing conversation there about why Liz thinks they can't be together.
And the "better for the both of us" line... I can't think of anything intelligent to say about that right now, I can only squee about how I love the Sparkiness in it. And especially how it's presented in this video. I get emotional at that point in the vid every time. *sniff*

[Scary Kitty]

SK....I remember a while back, you posted that you'd like an autumn, snuggle on a blanket (on Earth, with Sedge) with hot cider Sparky fic (and I remember wanting to write it and I will...eventually...soon now that my writer's block has been broken )....anyway...I was listening to my MP3 player on shuffle today and this song popped up and I couldn't help but giggle a little and think of your fic idea....I seem to be sliding further and further into the gutter these days!

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!! OMFG, that song is just so very John, that naughty boy!