Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Eri13]

And what better mind to serve his purposes than the mind that contains all the secrets of Atlantis. I find it interesting also that she chose John to imitate. Perhaps because she knew him best?

This is true, too--didn't think about that, that the real Elizabeth will harbor all the secrets of humans, Ancients and Earth--a database of info, so you wouldn't want to kill her immediately, but figure out ways to get that info from her. Make copies that you can woo into being a part of you? (Part of what happened in GITM was that she trusted the rebel replicators too much).

I think the scenario she was also imitating Ronon and Rodney, too--the whole thing was an AU. I like when they all three of them smile right before the weird grand reveal of her being John and the others.

[Southern Red]

This is true, too--didn't think about that, that the real Elizabeth will harbor all the secrets of humans, Ancients and Earth--a database of info, so you wouldn't want to kill her immediately, but figure out ways to get that info from her. Make copies that you can woo into being a part of you? (Part of what happened in GITM was that she trusted the rebel replicators too much).

I think the scenario she was also imitating Ronon and Rodney, too--the whole thing was an AU. I like when they all three of them smile right before the weird grand reveal of her being John and the others.

I love your idea of all the copies. And from that basis they could have gone anywhere in S6.

[Eri13]

I love your idea of all the copies. And from that basis they could have gone anywhere in S6.

Well, we see Mallozzi's side in saying the GITM might not have been the real one, but we forget a major player in all of that--Torri. For all the talk of what may have been with the Weir story, they still would have had to get the 'real' Elizabeth's actress back to do any kind of story with the 'real' Elizabeth. After what happened regarding GITM, I just didn't have hope of that happening. Theory is nice, but reality...*sigh*

So perhaps, all for the best there wasn't a S6. Who knows.

[Southern Red]

Well, we see Mallozzi's side in saying the GITM might not have been the real one, but we forget a major player in all of that--Torri. For all the talk of what may have been with the Weir story, they still would have had to get the 'real' Elizabeth's actress back to do any kind of story with the 'real' Elizabeth. After what happened regarding GITM, I just didn't have hope of that happening. Theory is nice, but reality...*sigh*

So perhaps, all for the best there wasn't a S6. Who knows.

I have to agree. Who knows what disappointments would have arisen in S6. And maybe not having a movie won't be such a bad thing either.

[Scary Kitty]

Good afternoon, Sparkies! Happy Smutty Tuesday!

Ahhh, Lifeline and the possibilities of what Oberoth was trying to do with Lizzie. Hell, I'm playing with those possibilities in my Big Bang fic.

In short, I do believe that Oberoth would have kept the original Weir alive. She was able to pull a serious fast one on him on his home turf; was that something unique to her, or is it something that any similar human/Replicator hybrid could do? The only way for Oberoth to find out for sure is to keep her alive, to study her, find out what makes her tick and then shape and mold it to his purposes. And the rogue Replicators, the remnant of Niam's faction that was studying ascension, also focused on Weir as a model for the humanity they wished to achieve. In both instances, their interest is attracted by some fundamental quality that they wish to either guard against or possess.

Binder definitely left the door very much open to the possibility that the original Weir is still out there. Of course, given how badly TPTW botched making the offer to Torri and their apparent unwillingness to address her issues with the story in a way that was acceptable to her and to the fans, we're probably never going to see a resolution on screen. Pity.

[Eri13]

I have to agree. Who knows what disappointments would have arisen in S6. And maybe not having a movie won't be such a bad thing either.

I'm sorta split. I'd be afraid what they'd do to Sheppard (when I hear stuff like 'yeah, it was kinda sad he didn't have anyone' it makes me think 'oh great. They're going to stuff some girl (or even Nancy) down our throat just to give him a happy ending'). I kinda like him alone and fending for Atlantis, it lets all shippers have their way with him.

At the same time--Atlantis on Earth? That's not right. What about Ronon's vow to kill every last Wraith on Pegasus? Or Teyla's devotion to her people? I find it hard to believe she'd stay on Atlantis if it remained on Earth. And what about Pegasus in general? Do they just abandon it now?

I really don't like any of those--I'm not sure if they addressed them in EATG. Those of you who watched, enlighten me!

[Anuna]

Ditto, Eri. I'm happy with the kind of ending we got for John because giving him a happy ending just for the sake of it (and you know they'd ruin it) would feel like cheating. As you once said, it's Elizabeth who affected his change the most. He is what he is because of her, and to hand that to some other woman, especially his ex who left him and didn't give him the chance Elizabeth did - would be wrong. (I'm a die hard Sparky shipper and I won't apologize for that).

SK, you've just given me a plot bunny!

Spoiler:

Imagine all the Weir clones (who essentially think like her, and therefore are loyal to Atlantis) attacking and destroying Oberoth and the rest of the Replicators?

[Anuna]

BTW, a slight change to my shipper colors

[Eri13]

btw, a slight change to my shipper colors

whoa! Anuna went xy!

[Anuna]

xy?

[Southern Red]

I'm sorta split. I'd be afraid what they'd do to Sheppard (when I hear stuff like 'yeah, it was kinda sad he didn't have anyone' it makes me think 'oh great. They're going to stuff some girl (or even Nancy) down our throat just to give him a happy ending'). I kinda like him alone and fending for Atlantis, it lets all shippers have their way with him.

At the same time--Atlantis on Earth? That's not right. What about Ronon's vow to kill every last Wraith on Pegasus? Or Teyla's devotion to her people? I find it hard to believe she'd stay on Atlantis if it remained on Earth. And what about Pegasus in general? Do they just abandon it now?

I really don't like any of those--I'm not sure if they addressed them in EATG. Those of you who watched, enlighten me!

You hit the nail on the head. JM even mentioned bringing back Nancy if there had been an S6. I wouldn't have minded that but I know most of you would.

JF was not happy being left all alone. So if they knew it would make him happy to give him someone, they'd never do it. LOL

The whole thing with Teyla and Ronon going to Earth with them didn't make any sense. What possible help could they be aside from defending the city and wouldn't the IOA send in the military for that? Ronon I can maybe see because I think his loyalty lies with John but Teyla has left her people and dragged her family to another galaxy for what? Now they may be stuck there forever. Huh uh. Doesn't make sense. Both of them had so little focus in S5 you can say any arcs or storylines connected with them have been completely discarded.

Spoiler for JM's movie hints.

Spoiler:

I think EatG set up a struggle with the IOA to allow them to return to the Pegasus and then some sort of plot involving Todd. You'll have McKeller, Ronon/Amelia and Teyla/Kanaan for ship. JM said Kanaan is in the movie. He also said something about the team being split up. So I'm sure John will be off somewhere being the big hero and Rodney will be off somewhere being the genius and who knows what else.

Frankly I'm bored with the whole thing and am seriously hoping there will be no movie and I can have my memories to fall back on without having the whole 5 years completely ruined for me.

[Anuna]

I think we need to write S6 ourselves. 20 stories (or even more!) standing for the episodes we ourselves would like to watch.

Well, if JF wasn't happy with John being left alone, then bring back Elizabeth, don't bring back Nancy. In grand scheme of things Elizabeth is way more important for the storyline, Atlantis, John, everything. Elizabeth is essential. Nancy isn't.

(the only reason we had to see Nancy was to see how ZOMG HAWT John's ex was. In my opinion, "Outcast" would have been way better if we saw more John and Dave talking about their family past, especially John's relationship with his father.)

[Scary Kitty]

Ditto, Eri. I'm happy with the kind of ending we got for John because giving him a happy ending just for the sake of it (and you know they'd ruin it) would feel like cheating. As you once said, it's Elizabeth who affected his change the most. He is what he is because of her, and to hand that to some other woman, especially his ex who left him and didn't give him the chance Elizabeth did - would be wrong. (I'm a die hard Sparky shipper and I won't apologize for that).

Amen to that. If they're not gonna bring back Elizabeth, they should just keep John single instead of trying to pair him up just so that they can have all the characters neatly paired off. (Come to think of it, if that was their goal, they'd have to get someone for Woolsey, too. )

SK, you've just given me a plot bunny!

Spoiler:

Imagine all the Weir clones (who essentially think like her, and therefore are loyal to Atlantis) attacking and destroying Oberoth and the rest of the Replicators?

*snickers* And you just gave me a plot bunny...

Spoiler:

I'm sure everyone here has seen Lord of the Rings, right? Remember that part in Return of the King where Team Aragorn shows up with that ghost army to take out the army that Sauron sent to destroy Minas Tirith? There was even a shot where there was a bunch of green ghosts swarming all over one of the oliphants and bringing it down.

Your little idea spawned the mental image of an army of thousands of Weir clones swarming all over Asuras and wiping everything out. Anuna, you're so evil!

[Scary Kitty]

Spoiler for JM's movie hints.

Spoiler:

I think EatG set up a struggle with the IOA to allow them to return to the Pegasus and then some sort of plot involving Todd. You'll have McKeller, Ronon/Amelia and Teyla/Kanaan for ship. JM said Kanaan is in the movie. He also said something about the team being split up. So I'm sure John will be off somewhere being the big hero and Rodney will be off somewhere being the genius and who knows what else.

Spoiler:

It's way past time they started dealing with the Atlantis vs. Earth dynamic; they've been hinting at a conflict ever since Season 2, and they've never gone anywhere with it.

Not surprised that the movie would involve Todd; he was locked up in that cell on Atlantis when they went back to Earth, so they've got to do something with that.

Frankly I'm bored with the whole thing and am seriously hoping there will be no movie and I can have my memories to fall back on without having the whole 5 years completely ruined for me.

You and me both.

Well, if JF wasn't happy with John being left alone, then bring back Elizabeth, don't bring back Nancy. In grand scheme of things Elizabeth is way more important for the storyline, Atlantis, John, everything. Elizabeth is essential. Nancy isn't.

(the only reason we had to see Nancy was to see how ZOMG HAWT John's ex was. In my opinion, "Outcast" would have been way better if we saw more John and Dave talking about their family past, especially John's relationship with his father.)

Absolutely. The relationships that John had with his father and brother are, I think, more important to understanding how John became the man we saw in Rising and how it still affects him to this day. And, of course, Elizabeth is key to understanding how and why John has changed since that time.

I don't mind seeing Nancy in the context of learning more about John's past, but please, let's not try to push those two back together. There's a reason why John and Nancy aren't together anymore. TPTW need to stick to that.

[Anuna]

Amen to that. If they're not gonna bring back Elizabeth, they should just keep John single instead of trying to pair him up just so that they can have all the characters neatly paired off. (Come to think of it, if that was their goal, they'd have to get someone for Woolsey, too. )



*snickers* And you just gave me a plot bunny...

Spoiler:

I'm sure everyone here has seen Lord of the Rings, right? Remember that part in Return of the King where Team Aragorn shows up with that ghost army to take out the army that Sauron sent to destroy Minas Tirith? There was even a shot where there was a bunch of green ghosts swarming all over one of the oliphants and bringing it down.

Your little idea spawned the mental image of an army of thousands of Weir clones swarming all over Asuras and wiping everything out. Anuna, you're so evil!

Yup, let's have all the neat pairs. We can pair Woolsey with Doctor Biro or someone even more random.

However when it comes to John and Nancy, there's another thing. If someone got a divorce that means the marriage wasn't working, the relationship lacked something - it was disfunctional. Debating whose fault is it, John or Nancy is beside the point (however I believe in cases like that both parties bear the guilt).

So, why pairing him back with her? To go and fix something from the past? That makes no sense, for a mature adult IMO. They both moved on and changed and aren't the same people who were married ten or how many years ago. I do believe most people still love their ex spouses (if they weren't abusive or something in that vein, and some people still love the spouses who beat the cr*p outta them), but going back in past and bringing old love to life simply isn't possible. If it is, then this person never really gotten over the ex, didn't deal with issues which led to ending of the marriage, so revisiting this relationship can't be healthy. I don't think that seeing John in a disfunctional relationship would be much fun.

However, Elizabeth had done one thing Nancy didn't - she knew how "guide" John to give his best. It's her who helped him shine. I think the circumstances added up to that, but the bottom line is, she believed in him, even when he was, er, misbehaving. I wouldn't say that Elizabeth deserves him more (hey, wait. I take that back. I think Elizabeth does deserve him more, ), the important thing is, he has/had (damn canon! She's not gone!) a chance for a healthy relationship with her, something with a future.