Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Probie]

Apologies! I think you're both very smart!

I can do that with my Mom on Lost. Normally she watches 'chick-flicks' (Lifetime movie network, romance movies) which I don't like (I detest them, actually). And normally I'm all Sci-Fi or action/adventure.

But for some reason, she LOVES Lost. So every Wednesday, we curl up on our sofas and watch Lost together. It's WONDERFUL. Though I am sad it's ending this year because it means no more of that. It may be the one show on television we can watch together. *LOL*

Apology accepted. I'm so serious tonight. I hope I didn't scare you.lol

It's very fun to share moments like that with our mom. We watched SGA and NCIS (because of Gibbs. She's in love.lol) together. I tried to convince her to watch House with me. She did this at the beginning but stopped. My father like House. So I share this show with him. My parents are great huh?lol

[pkprd869]

I only have this to say really quick.

Rocky Top you'll always be
Home sweet home to me. GO VOLS!

[Erin87]

Adrift Discussion
-as challenged, done without reading anybody else's answers
(and it turned out the post was too long, so I'm having to split this up into two. See? This is what happens. I start rambling.)

Spoiler:

1) Adrift is an interesting episode--not as uplifting as the resolution of The Siege and not as disjointed as No Man's Land. How did you feel about it as a Season premiere?

I think it was a good season premiere. First Strike left us hanging with a pretty spectacular cliffhanger, and Adrift didn't lose any of that momentum. It addressed problems that needed to be addressed, and was a nice set up for the episode to come.

2) The opening sequence is a series of cut scenes showing the failing of Atlantis paralleled to the 'failing' of Elizabeth. What did that sequence mean to you? As a fan of Elizabeth, what can you say about its significance in the long run?

Well for one thing, it really reinforced the danger of the episode. We see the city in imminent danger all the time, but this adds another dimension to that. It gives the situation more impact. And it really does create that bond between Elizabeth and the city. They're tied together. A far as the long run... I may be stretching it here, but... those scenes link Liz and Atlantis together, and later on, when she's gone the city suffers for it. It becomes little more than a set piece, and lacks the sense of wonder that you could argue Elizabeth brought to it. I can't recollect ever seeing Woolsey or Sam get as excited about the city itself as Elizabeth did. They lacked that connection.

3) John steps straight into the role of leader right from the beginning, quietly reminding Rodney that he needs to be informed of all decisions. How did this character move strike you? Was it in character for John? What about as the story progresses--how did he handle everything?

It very much strikes me by how Elizabeth-like John is acting. He is trying to fill her shoes as best he can, but it seems to me like he wasn't necessarily comfortable in that role. He's doing it because he has to, but I think in the back of his mind the whole time he was thinking how it should be Elizabeth doing this instead of him. Anyway, yes, I do think it was in character. John is going to step up to the plate when it's required of him, and I thought he handled everything very well. He kept his head.

4) What stood out to you about the infirmary scene where Keller breaks the news to John of Elizabeth's condition? What do you think John was really feeling at that point?

What stood out the most was simply John's face, and the pain clearly visible in his eyes. He honestly looks like he's about to cry, which in turn makes me want to cry just because it's that darn heartbreaking. And Keller does treat him like Elizabeth's husband in the way she breaks the news, especially the way she takes his arm and leads him into a more private corner instead of simply saying it in front of Ronon.
I think he was feeling lost, and overwhelmed. Up until this point he has merely been keeping Elizabeth's chair warm, fully expecting her to get better. But now he knows that that isn't going to happen, and not only is he going to lose the Elizabeth he knew and cared for, he is going to have to get everybody through this situation on his own without her support.


5) Was the asteroid belt problem necessary? We're always aiming to amp up the action on Atlantis, but was this overkill?

I think there was a little bit of a 'come on! really!? as if there weren't enough problems already and now there's a freaking asteroid belt?!! there's only so much these people can take, geesh!' But it's not complete overkill I guess. It does give a more immediately tangible danger to the situation. We can see there's a problem instead of having to take Rodney's word for it. And the special effects were absolutely excellent.

6) In a key moment in Adrift, Rodney and Keller come up with a plan to reactivate Elizabeth's nanites in order to save her. John is highly opposed to this plan. Was this an anti-Sparky moment, or out of character for Mr. 'leave no one behind?' Or was it completely Sparky and totally in character? Defend or debate John's actions!

I'm pretty sure I remember being upset by John's complete refusal of the plan when I first saw this episode. I was very 'he's not supposed to be willing to let her die! but, but... John how could you?!'
But now that I've grown a bit in my Sparkiness and have a better understanding of their relationship (essentially since coming here), I can see how it's Sparky and in character, even if I still don't like it. He's doing what Elizabeth would want. He knows how she would react and he is putting her first.

7) Keller's move is a little cutthroat, doing anything to save her patient. Was this sensible for her? Should she have respected the nanite situation more? Why doesn't John direct any of his vehemence towards her?

For one thing Keller wasn't around with the first nanite situation. She wasn't there to see how quickly they spread or how easily they took control of her. The most she's probably done is read the report. She isn't seeing them as a danger, she is seeing them as a way to save her patient, the only way. And maybe she and John are having a sort of shared feeling here, even if they undergo that feeling in drastically different ways- each of them not wanting to go through this situation without Elizabeth's guiding presence. We saw how insecure Keller was in First Strike, add that with the 'we need you here' line. Still, it would have been extremely interesting if it had been Carson in that situation. You have to wonder if he would have been willing to take the same steps to save her life, since he did see what the nanites did the first time.
And I think John directs all his anger at Rodney because Rodney was the one who programmed the nanites - Keller couldn't have done it on her own.

8) How did you like Ronon's 'quiet' scenes with Elizabeth? Were they within character for Ronon? Do you wish we'd had more of these, or was this enough to demonstrate his softer side?

I loved the quiet scenes. A lot of the time Ronon is simply the muscle, and it's nice to be reminded that he's an actual person too. But we have seen him like this before, we know he's capable of it, and it's very in character. I think that while it would have been nice to see it more, it wasn't necessary. It shows us how he feels enough, and to do much more would have been out of character.

[Erin87]

Adrift Discussion Questions, part 2

Spoiler:

9) Was it sensible for Rodney to ignore John and reactive the nanites in Elizabeth? Honestly, were you more on Rodney's side or more on John's?

No, it probably wasn't sensible, for the very reasons John and then Elizabeth pointed out. But honestly I have to side with Rodney. I agree with Elizabeth being alive, and if there's a way to keep her that way, then yeah I'm for it! (within reason- like if it was Elizabeth or everyone in the galaxy, then yeah, I'd have to go with the latter, but in this situation Liz wins hands down.) And I think the risk was acceptable.

10) Sam and Dr. Lee pop in occasionally, with no real added benefit to the story (though their significance will be explained in Lifeline). Did you mind them here? Why do you think they were included?

I guess I don't mind them, even though I might have the first time I saw the ep. A bit like 'Ah, I don't care about you! What's happening to Atlantis!!' But now... eh. *shrug*
I think they were included 1) to set things up for Lifeline and then the rest of S4, and 2) just to give the viewer a break from the chaos and gloom that was Atlantis at that point, to allow us to breath for a minute


11) Why do you think John goes so far as to order the EMP to deactivate Elizabeth, instead of waiting to see what would happen? What would you imagine was going through his mind as he was fighting with Rodney?

In his mind he is convinced that this will go wrong. He is expecting to find not Elizabeth but a nanite controlled Replicator in that infirmary. And perhaps he didn't want to let himself have a chance to talk to her and see her well before having to kill her. Of course, once he actually does see her, he doesn't do it. And I think what was running through his mind was just him repeatedly telling himself that Elizabeth wouldn't want this. That certainty that she wouldn't want to be a danger to the city, and a great deal of anger at Rodney for forcing her into an existence that she wouldn't have wanted.

12) Why do YOU believe John couldn't visit Elizabeth in the infirmary after she was healed?

He was probably feeling guilty at this point for having been so prepared to sacrifice her. To have her sitting there in front of him alive when he had been willing to have her killed couldn't have been easy, so he avoided her. And on the flip side there was probably also guilt over the fact that he hadn't been able to stop Rodney from reactivating the nanites and violating her wishes. He might have felt like he had let her down in that respect.


13) Elizabeth is obviously not happy about the nanites being reactivated in her. What do you see as her biggest concern? Why does she feel her life is not as important as Atlantis?

Her biggest concern is the danger she poses to the city. She is afraid that the nanites will lead the Replicators straight to them. Her fear for herself, with the memories of what she had gone through in TRW, while great, still wasn't as important as Atlantis. Why she feels that way is kind of a tough one. But I think the city has developed a kind of mythic status in her mind. It is the place that she calls home, that she crossed two galaxies to find, and it is the hope of the Pegasus Galaxy against the Wraith. And it is full of the people that she is responsible for. She is aware that in the grand scheme of things, it is the city that has to carry on.

14) Were you surprised that the 'solution' to the Adrift problems seem to lie on Asuras? How sensible is this resolution to the episode, considering the attack on Atlantis only one episode ago?

I honestly don't remember if I was surprised or not. I probably was. It seems fitting that the cause of their problems should also serve as the remedy for it.

15) Remember that Adrift is supposed to start directly after First Strike ends. Did you get that feeling from this episode, that they were connected? Is it easy to watch the two of them back to back, as it is with The Siege? Or had things 'fundamentally' changed for you at this point?

See #1. It does flow together, but I do agree that things have changed for me at this point. I know what's coming, I know that in only two episodes Elizabeth will be gone. Heck, Torri Higginson isn't even in the credits anymore! It spoils it.

Sparky bonus

A) How Sparky do you consider Adrift? Is it high on your list? Low? Why?


I think, if for nothing else than the look on John's face in that infirmary scene, this is a very Sparky episode. But also for the fact that for 99% of the time Elizabeth is unconscious, it prevents it from being too high on the list. But still, very Sparky.

B) Did you get a sense of Sparky continuity here? If you did, what was it? If not, why not?

I think there was Sparky continuity in John and Elizabeth's identical reactions over the nanite matter.

C) In your Sparky interpretation, what importance do you place on the 'mourning' scene? Why is it important in the grand scheme of things? How do you think Joe Flanigan played John's reaction?

I place a lot of importance on it. You can almost see John's heart breaking, and it really shows just how much he cares about Elizabeth. And as far as the grand scheme of things this is the point when John first begins his evolution into a darker character, even though it doesn't really become apparent until Elizabeth is completely gone. There's really no way to know for sure how JF chose to play that scene or what he thought of. We can only go by what we see, and that is a man who has just been told that the woman he cares about very deeply (loves) is most likely going to die.


D) Is there anything on the Sparky side you would have done differently in Adrift (remember, no business side arguments).


Hmmm, I don't know. I would have liked John to be more open to Rodney's plan, but other than that... I can't really think of anything at the moment.

Whew! Done!

[Southern Red]

I only have this to say really quick.

Rocky Top you'll always be
Home sweet home to me. GO VOLS!

So far so good. I hope you keep it up.

And VT 52/Marshall 10 Hokies rock!

[Scary Kitty]

Good afternoon, Sparkies! Happy Sparky!Family Saturday!

And good luck to everyone's favorite football teams today!

You know the sadness that was Adrift was almost off set by the squeeness because in a lot of minds Sparky became canon right with this episode. Too bad it was posthumous on Elizabeth's part. But that's why I can't get too upset by anything that might occur romance wise for John in a possible to happen someday if the wind is from the east and jupiter is in retrograde movie.

1) I loved how you were shocked at the 'mourning' scene coming from a non-shipper perspective first and it changed your mind. I think that may have set the ball rolling with the non-shippers or gen watchers who, by the time GITM rolled around, began to see the bond. It may not have made them all 'shippers' per se, but they began to see her importance to him a little better.

Adrift/Lifeline was certainly a turning point for many segments of the fandom in many ways. To this day I am still struck by how, starting after A/L, more and more of the gen fans, non-shipppers, non-Sparkies kept coming out of the woodwork, both here at GW and on LJ and describing John's reaction to Elizabeth's injury as being like that of a widower. And then again after TMC, those who came out stating that Season 4 was missing something, and that something was Weir.

What's the saying about opinions, that for every person who speaks up, there are ten more who feel the same way but don't speak up? Makes you wonder just how many of us who do see the bond between John and Elizabeth are really out there. Sparky may be even bigger than we know.

[Scary Kitty]

Adrift Discussion Questions, part 2

Spoiler:

15) Remember that Adrift is supposed to start directly after First Strike ends. Did you get that feeling from this episode, that they were connected? Is it easy to watch the two of them back to back, as it is with The Siege? Or had things 'fundamentally' changed for you at this point?

See #1. It does flow together, but I do agree that things have changed for me at this point. I know what's coming, I know that in only two episodes Elizabeth will be gone. Heck, Torri Higginson isn't even in the credits anymore! It spoils it.

Yeah, I have to admit, I also wondered why they did that.

Spoiler:

I mean, look at Season 2 when Ford was written out and Ronon brought in: they didn't start using the new opening credits with Jason Momoa until Duet, the episode after Ronon was introduced. The Siege Part 3, The Intruder, and Runner all use the Season 1 credits. Not following that established precedent and keeping the Season 2-3 credits through Reunion surely must have spoiled the outcome of Adrift/Lifeline for any casual viewers who weren't aware of the casting changes. (Not to mention, fueling even more ill-will from disgruntled fans.)

[Eri13]

Yeah, I have to admit, I also wondered why they did that.

Spoiler:

I mean, look at Season 2 when Ford was written out and Ronon brought in: they didn't start using the new opening credits with Jason Momoa until Duet, the episode after Ronon was introduced. The Siege Part 3, The Intruder, and Runner all use the Season 1 credits. Not following that established precedent and keeping the Season 2-3 credits through Reunion surely must have spoiled the outcome of Adrift/Lifeline for any casual viewers who weren't aware of the casting changes. (Not to mention, fueling even more ill-will from disgruntled fans.)

I think it has to do with how difficult the credits were to make. It made sense with S2 because they obviously put a ton of money into the credits (and S1 credits were cut shots, no major Viz FX involved). Season 2 credits were all kinds of computer graphic heavy that took time to make, so to then hold off on introducing them until Sateda wasn't surprising, per se.

But they have a template to follow for those, so it wouldn't be as hard to drop people in (though you could see how Amanda and Jewel's weren't made at the same time as the S2 credits because the colors were totally off) for S4. Since there was no 'change' to the look of the title credits, changing them before fans knew 'the truth' wasn't surprising.

HOWEVER...that being sad, I totally didn't agree with it. Unless it was a legal issue they ignored in S2 (needing to credit all regulars in every show) they should have waited. It added fuel to my ire. I will not watch the S4 credits for any of the episodes. Petty perhaps, but I'm pretty balanced otherwise, so I think I'm entitled to my little pettiness...

[Southern Red]

I think it has to do with how difficult the credits were to make. It made sense with S2 because they obviously put a ton of money into the credits (and S1 credits were cut shots, no major Viz FX involved). Season 2 credits were all kinds of computer graphic heavy that took time to make, so to then hold off on introducing them until Sateda wasn't surprising, per se.

But they have a template to follow for those, so it wouldn't be as hard to drop people in (though you could see how Amanda and Jewel's weren't made at the same time as the S2 credits because the colors were totally off) for S4. Since there was no 'change' to the look of the title credits, changing them before fans knew 'the truth' wasn't surprising.

HOWEVER...that being sad, I totally didn't agree with it. Unless it was a legal issue they ignored in S2 (needing to credit all regulars in every show) they should have waited. It added fuel to my ire. I will not watch the S4 credits for any of the episodes. Petty perhaps, but I'm pretty balanced otherwise, so I think I'm entitled to my little pettiness...

I see your pettiness and raise you by a mile on a number of issues. But I never paid much attention to the credits. I didn't even notice that they had been shortened. LOL

[Scary Kitty]

I think it has to do with how difficult the credits were to make. It made sense with S2 because they obviously put a ton of money into the credits (and S1 credits were cut shots, no major Viz FX involved). Season 2 credits were all kinds of computer graphic heavy that took time to make, so to then hold off on introducing them until Sateda wasn't surprising, per se.

Possibly, but if they can get the FX for the actual episodes done prior to the season start date, surely a one-minute opening title sequence wouldn't have taken that much more time that it would've had to be delivered late.

As I recall, when those episodes originally aired, SciFi had started inserting the main cast names during the teaser followed by that short eyecatch version of the series title card, just like they did again late in Season 5. It's only on the DVDs and the reruns on broadcast TV that the full opening credits were put back in. All so SciFi could squeeze in a little more advertising time. Hmm, how much you wanna bet they try to do that with SGU as well?

But they have a template to follow for those, so it wouldn't be as hard to drop people in (though you could see how Amanda and Jewel's weren't made at the same time as the S2 credits because the colors were totally off) for S4. Since there was no 'change' to the look of the title credits, changing them before fans knew 'the truth' wasn't surprising.

HOWEVER...that being sad, I totally didn't agree with it. Unless it was a legal issue they ignored in S2 (needing to credit all regulars in every show) they should have waited. It added fuel to my ire. I will not watch the S4 credits for any of the episodes. Petty perhaps, but I'm pretty balanced otherwise, so I think I'm entitled to my little pettiness...

And if it was a legal/actors' union issue, one would think we would've heard somebody raising a stink about the S2 credits, but we didn't, so I doubt that was it. Sounds like they just wanted to shove the past under the rug as quickly as they could and toot their horns for the new shiny. *sighs* I won't watch the S4 credits either, so I'll join you on that petty couch. *passes over a mojito*

[Scary Kitty]

Well frak. I hope everyone else's football Saturday has been going well... Ohio State is running all over USC right now. It's still close, but... gah. John is not amused.

ETA: Air Force lost today, too. John's really gonna be cranky. Methinks Lizzie's gonna need to break out the hot fudge sauce and whipped cream tonight.

[Southern Red]

Well frak. I hope everyone else's football Saturday has been going well... Ohio State is running all over USC right now. It's still close, but... gah. John is not amused.

ETA: Air Force lost today, too. John's really gonna be cranky. Methinks Lizzie's gonna need to break out the hot fudge sauce and whipped cream tonight.

So sorry guys. At least we beat Marshall which isn't saying much. John won't know the scores for a very long time anyway. LOL I can see Elizabeth hiding the scores from him. Maybe they come in with the data burst from Earth and he's wondering why she doesn't want him to read it. Hee. Plot bunny. Oh noes!

[Scary Kitty]

So sorry guys. At least we beat Marshall which isn't saying much. John won't know the scores for a very long time anyway. LOL I can see Elizabeth hiding the scores from him. Maybe they come in with the data burst from Earth and he's wondering why she doesn't want him to read it. Hee. Plot bunny. Oh noes!

And then John tries to tempt her with a dinner of delectable gourmet treats from around Pegasus, followed by... another kind of feast.

[Scary Kitty]

OMFG! USC came from behind to spank Ohio State! Fight on, Trojans! Well, I guess John won't be quite so cranky tonight after all!

[Anuna]

I think it has to do with how difficult the credits were to make. It made sense with S2 because they obviously put a ton of money into the credits (and S1 credits were cut shots, no major Viz FX involved). Season 2 credits were all kinds of computer graphic heavy that took time to make, so to then hold off on introducing them until Sateda wasn't surprising, per se.

But they have a template to follow for those, so it wouldn't be as hard to drop people in (though you could see how Amanda and Jewel's weren't made at the same time as the S2 credits because the colors were totally off) for S4. Since there was no 'change' to the look of the title credits, changing them before fans knew 'the truth' wasn't surprising.

HOWEVER...that being sad, I totally didn't agree with it. Unless it was a legal issue they ignored in S2 (needing to credit all regulars in every show) they should have waited. It added fuel to my ire. I will not watch the S4 credits for any of the episodes. Petty perhaps, but I'm pretty balanced otherwise, so I think I'm entitled to my little pettiness...

I may not know much about how credits are made and how much time it takes, but they could have used old credits for Adrift and Lifeline. To me it simply showed who was important and who was replaceable, and that's why I'll never see Carter as any kind of true leader of Atlantis. Sorry. It was just studio politics, and it ruins the canon. Period.