Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Southern Red]

*pouts*

Where IS everybody? Did my caveats on the discussion scare people off? I wasn't intended to be mean, just trying to put some restrictions in place to prevent tattly people from getting us modded...

SK, thanks for your answers! They were great! And I should probably rephrase question #6--what I meant was 'after the Replicators retaliate and send in the beam-stargate' not actually after the beam blows up the window. I was thinking of scenes like the 'Fantastic Four' scene.

You didn't scare me off. I started answering the questions but discovered I may need to review FS. So I'll get them up tomorrow. I don't want to short change your excellent questions.

[Scary Kitty]

*pouts*

Where IS everybody? Did my caveats on the discussion scare people off? I wasn't intended to be mean, just trying to put some restrictions in place to prevent tattly people from getting us modded...

SK, thanks for your answers! They were great! And I should probably rephrase question #6--what I meant was 'after the Replicators retaliate and send in the beam-stargate' not actually after the beam blows up the window. I was thinking of scenes like the 'Fantastic Four' scene.

Ah, okay! Actually, I think my initial response still stands. It seemed as if, while Elizabeth and McKay had warned about possible retaliation, no one was really expecting the Replicators to retaliate as quickly as they did; understandable given that before, it took the Replicators about a month between Progeny and The Return to attack Atlantis. So when the counterstrike did come, everyone on Atlantis was caught off guard and left wondering when the other shoe was going to drop, so to speak. I guess scenes like the Fantastic Four scene were kind of meant to serve as sort of 'in the eye of the storm' moments before the city took the next big hit. Not that it worked all that well.

Want me to go poke everyone with a stick?

[Eri13]

Ah, okay! Actually, I think my initial response still stands. It seemed as if, while Elizabeth and McKay had warned about possible retaliation, no one was really expecting the Replicators to retaliate as quickly as they did; understandable given that before, it took the Replicators about a month between Progeny and The Return to attack Atlantis. So when the counterstrike did come, everyone on Atlantis was caught off guard and left wondering when the other shoe was going to drop, so to speak. I guess scenes like the Fantastic Four scene were kind of meant to serve as sort of 'in the eye of the storm' moments before the city took the next big hit. Not that it worked all that well.

Want me to go poke everyone with a stick?

Yes, please.

Actually, it's alright...work just caught up with me, so I won't be able to do Adrift until Friday or perhaps even Monday.

I do have some 'homework' for people, though--in both the Adrift and Lifeline recaps, I hope to seriously discuss two things: 1) why John and Elizabeth felt not reactivating the nanites was the best course of action, despite the fact that it would kill her; and 2) why Carl Binder wrote the finale 'Elizabeth sacrifice' scene in LL the way he did (we know he had to write her out--I'm more curious as to why it was written the way it was).

To do this effectively, I think we need to go back and rewatch a few eppies from Season 1, 2 and 3 to remind ourselves of what kind of characters John and Elizabeth have been and evolved into for three years. Hot Zone certainly presented a different side of Weir and Sheppard for me, since the most recent episodes I've watched are the end of Season 3. It reminded me of how they started and who they were in the beginning.

So, I'd say watch a couple of these if you can:

1) Poisoning the Well
2) Hot Zone
3) Siege series
4) Trinity
5) Conversion
6) Critical Mass
7) Coup d'etat
8) Common Ground

All of them pretty much feature tough or dangerous decisions--some that may be self-sacrificing or cost the lives of friends--and how the characters have to handle them. While you're enjoying them, watch how Elizabeth and John react in these various situations and see if they can flow into what happens in Adrift and Lifeline.

[Southern Red]

Rules! *eeeps I'll try to follow them to the best of my ability.


First Strike

1)First Strike is an action packed episode with lots of special effects. How did it compare to other effect-heavy episodes? The other season finales? Have the effects in SGA evolved for the better over the course of time?

Oh dear, not off to a good start. Uh...I don't really notice special effects all that much unless they are really really bad or really really good. So...um...all I remember is the city flying which was good, the Major Lorne asteroid towing company which was also good, and the last big 'splosion...which was heartbreakingly good. I thought they were about the same as usual. I recall a few space battles but they've all run together.

2)We open the story by meeting new CMO Jennifer Keller for the first time. What were your impressions of her then? Those of you who have seen S4 & S5, what do you think now--has her character progressed or evolved?

She's devolved in my opinion. She struck me here as a very competent doctor who is new to this whole space thing and knows her limitations. She didn't want to be there or at the very least didn't want to be in charge but Elizabeth seemed to think she would do a good job and would adjust. I do think Elizabeth was a bit dismissive of her concerns here. By the end of FS though, Keller was rising to the occasion and acting professional. Then especially in S5 she's suddenly a hormonal teenager with poor judgment in relation to dating a patient one minute and Zena the warrior princess the next. She rapidly becomes the Mary Sue to end all Mary Sues.

3)Ellis brings with him the news that the IOA has sanctioned a preemptive first strike against Asuras--do you think it was reasonable that he would have delivered this news rather than Landry or Woolsey? Why do you think Atlantis was kept in the dark?

The IOA never knows what kind of cooperation they are going to get from Weir and Sheppard. They consider them a rogue element and keep them out of the loop to the last possible second so they can't plan an end run like in Return I/II. They thought Ellis was tough enough to handle both of them since both Landry and Woolsey had experienced limited success in the past. They probably weren't entirely sure Woolsey could be objective anymore after his positive review in Misbegotten. And it was a military strike. They don't usually announce these before hand. In fact as many people as possible are kept out of the loop until the last second.

4)Weir has been amenable before to using her team to risk themselves to protect Earth--(see Allies). What was different here--why do you think she was so opposed to the strike?

She didn't think it would work and would only make things worse. I think she knew Ellis et al were underestimating the Replicators but I'm not sure why she thought talking to them would work. I guess it's just her nature to use force as a final resort but I think she was wrong here. She did mention stalling for time so the IOA could perfect the PWARW, so that could have been her reasoning. The only problem was that the force was not overwhelming enough and the Replicators were way ahead of them as usual. It was kinda like hitting a wasp nest with a stick.

5)What did you think about the first strike? Truthfully, it was successful, though the repercussions hit Atlantis exactly as Elizabeth feared they would. In the end, was it worth the risk?

I wonder what would have been different if they had done nothing. The first strike was a bit like John in Siege 2 saying that he wanted to take the battle to the enemy for a change. That's a good military strategy but again the Replicators were too formidable an enemy. Not doing it might have gotten them all killed eventually and would have led to the Replicators getting to Earth, so if you look at it merely from a strategic standpoint, then it was worth it. The Lanteans didn't have all the information they needed. Perhaps Ellis and the people who planned the strike should have taken some time to talk it over with Weir and Sheppard and gotten a bit more intel. They looked at it solely as a military strike and their thinking was a bit simplistic.

6)After the beam hits Atlantis, First Strike doesn't feel as 'tightly told' as it did in the beginning. What changed, and what should have been done to fix it?

The sense of everything falling apart was actually quite good and gets better in Adrift. They had a plan. They executed the plan. The plan sort of worked. Then the enemy introduced a new element which shocked them into falling back on the usual seat of the pants planning we are used to. At this point we're back to Rodney trying to beat time to come up with a solution, Elizabeth is back in charge and Ellis is deferring to her. Good times. The fact that John and Rodney were not able to pull off a miracle like usual and have everybody be just fine and dandy was shocking and actually pretty good storytelling. However the problem came as it did so many times with this show when it was a hurry up situation because time was running out and it seemed rushed at the end. They wanted to end on a big huge cliffhanger and boy was this a whopper. I wish I had seen it without any spoilers. I think I would have thought that Weir would be fine and they'd pull their usual rabbit out of the hat. Boy would I have been surprised. So..uh...what was the question? Oh, I don't really think it needed fixing. It seemed like a good progression to me.

7)Ronon and Teyla don't have much to do here, though it does seem foolish to leave them out of a season finale. How could they have been put to better use?

For the life of me I can't think of a single thing. This must be a first. They didn't need to be there and it was obvious.


8)How did First Strike handle all the elements of defending Atlantis from the beam? Did it feel like a sensible series of developments?

I think so. Rodney/Rakek kept coming up with ideas which they tried and failed at and then went on to a new idea. I loved that John and Rodney came up with the same plan simultaneously. McSheppers squee! And the whole one thing gets done and then another problem crops up went right on into Adrift.



9)Why do you think Ellis felt the need to 'apologize' to Weir as he was leaving? He'd not shown any deference to her before. What changed his mind?

Maybe it was his sense of honor. At the core he's probably a gentleman, but his military mindset took over while he was busy carrying out his orders. Then he realized he had been a jerk and wanted her to know it wasn't personal. It's the typical military way of being in charge. They forget that everyone is not a subordinate and as with his attitude toward Rodney, they get impatient with civilians.

10)Us not wanting her to be killed of aside, how do you think Elizabeth's 'final' episode as Atlantis's leader was? Did she get good character moments? What about the way she was injured? Was it an ending worthy of her character?

Not really. She was pushed aside at first and by the time she was back in charge it was too late for a proper solution. She felt marginalized and complained to Teyla and rightly so but Ellis was just following orders no matter how overbearing he was. She was strong and decisive once she was back in charge and had to essentially clean up his mess, all the while thinking that John had let her down. I would like to have seen them come to terms with his decision. The injury itself made her seem like just another incident of collateral damage which made it even sadder.

11)What did YOU think was going to happen six months later, when SGA returned with Adrift? Play out where you saw the story go in your mind based on what you knew at the time.

I thought she would be sent back to Earth after they finally got settled somewhere. A new leader would come in and we'd never see her again. The story actually played out a lot better than I expected. But then I'm a pessimist.

Sparkalicious bonus

A) John and Elizabeth run into conflict over the strike on Asuras. Was this a reasonable conflict for them? Why did Elizabeth seem so surprised that John did not take her side?

Yes it was reasonable. John has taken the military position in the past and he always wants to use the deadly force solution. She had just gotten so used to their working in tandem it came as a shock. I think she genuinely thought he had changed his attitude and he had somewhat but not entirely.
I am glad they added a bit of conflict because it reinforced the idea that John still thinks for himself and hasn't been emasculated by her as some Weir critics claimed.

B) Early in the episode, there is a tension-filled moment between them where John again tries to explain his decision to side with Ellis and Elizabeth cuts him off, but wishes him 'good luck'. John hesitates after she leaves with a guilty look on his face. What do you think the characters were feeling at that point?

She was disappointed and knew they would ultimately fail. He was sorry to have to hurt her and sad that she wouldn't listen to his explanation. But they both thought they would have time to straighten it all out when the crisis was over.

C)Once the beam attacks Atlantis, John and Elizabeth do not share an 'alone' scene, and barely talk. Why do you think Gero switched gears here?

Who knows what motivated Gero...oh wait, I think I do. Anyway, I think it was probably just a time factor. At one point when I think Rodney and Ellis come into her office John is already there. So maybe we can surmise that they talked before that. The few times when they were in scenes together after the beam hits I noticed that John was giving her the eye as if to assess her mood. You could tell he was still thinking about having to smooth things over and wondering how she was taking Ellis's disrespect. And I loved how proud of her he looked when she snarked at Ellis.

[Scary Kitty]

Good afternoon, Sparkies! Happy Fluffy Thursday!

Yes, please.

Actually, it's alright...work just caught up with me, so I won't be able to do Adrift until Friday or perhaps even Monday.

I do have some 'homework' for people, though--in both the Adrift and Lifeline recaps, I hope to seriously discuss two things: 1) why John and Elizabeth felt not reactivating the nanites was the best course of action, despite the fact that it would kill her; and 2) why Carl Binder wrote the finale 'Elizabeth sacrifice' scene in LL the way he did (we know he had to write her out--I'm more curious as to why it was written the way it was).

To do this effectively, I think we need to go back and rewatch a few eppies from Season 1, 2 and 3 to remind ourselves of what kind of characters John and Elizabeth have been and evolved into for three years. Hot Zone certainly presented a different side of Weir and Sheppard for me, since the most recent episodes I've watched are the end of Season 3. It reminded me of how they started and who they were in the beginning.

So, I'd say watch a couple of these if you can:

1) Poisoning the Well
2) Hot Zone
3) Siege series
4) Trinity
5) Conversion
6) Critical Mass
7) Coup d'etat
8) Common Ground

All of them pretty much feature tough or dangerous decisions--some that may be self-sacrificing or cost the lives of friends--and how the characters have to handle them. While you're enjoying them, watch how Elizabeth and John react in these various situations and see if they can flow into what happens in Adrift and Lifeline.

Oooh, now THIS is some homework I'll be happy to do!

[Scary Kitty]

Looking at the schedule, I see that today's Atlantis rerun on SyFy is "Michael." Anyone going to be watching for the Sparky eyesex?

[Southern Red]

Looking at the schedule, I see that today's Atlantis rerun on SyFy is "Michael." Anyone going to be watching for the Sparky eyesex?

Me me me. I'm heading down right now to clean up the kitchen and try not to look like I spent the afternoon playing Around the World in 80 Days before my husband gets home. Then I have to cut his hair before Michael comes on. Or we can always rewind.

[Eri13]

Looking at the schedule, I see that today's Atlantis rerun on SyFy is "Michael." Anyone going to be watching for the Sparky eyesex?

I can't ever...I'm always at work. But I watch with you in spirit.

[Erin87]

First Strike

1) First Strike is an action packed episode with lots of special effects. How did it compare to other effect-heavy episodes? The other season finales? Have the effects in SGA evolved for the better over the course of time?

I would have to see them one right after another to judge for sure, but the effects in FS were spectacular and complimented the story without overwhelming it. As for if they've gotten better... speaking in terms of S4 and 5, I don't think they have, at least nothing springs to mind at the moment, but again I'd have to watch and be on the look out specifically for the effects, which I usually don't do.

2) We open the story by meeting new CMO Jennifer Keller for the first time. What were your impressions of her then? Those of you who have seen S4 & S5, what do you think now--has her character progressed or evolved?

I can't really remember what I thought of her when I first saw the ep, but I agree with the others in that I think that she does appear very professional and competent in this situation, which isn't really something we see all that much of in later seasons. I think her character has progressed in terms of comfort level as she's adjusted to life in the Pegasus Galaxy - we don't see much of the insecurity we do in FS. She's gotten more sure of herself and more confident, but it's different from what we see in FS, where, yeah, she's young and a bit out of her element, but when it comes down to it she can get the job done.


3) Ellis brings with him the news that the IOA has sanctioned a preemptive first strike against Asuras--do you think it was reasonable that he would have delivered this news rather than Landry or Woolsey? Why do you think Atlantis was kept in the dark?

Well, since the IOA had been going behind Atlantis's back on this, it makes sense that the commander that they had picked to lead the strike deliver the news. It's not exactly appropriate, but then again, it's the IOA.
I pretty much agree with what has already been said on why Atlantis was kept out of the loop. They knew they would meet with resistance and didn't want to delay putting their plan into action.


4) Weir has been amenable before to using her team to risk themselves to protect Earth--(see Allies). What was different here--why do you think she was so opposed to the strike?

In Allies, the actions of Atlantis were directly responsible for the threat to Earth, and it was an immediate threat. It was clearly 'okay, we caused this and now we have to fix it.' Here, it's Earth that's taking the offensive, in Elizabeth's mind practically unprovoked. Despite how she's had to adapt to her situation, her background in peaceful solutions is still a strong influence on her.

5) What did you think about the first strike? Truthfully, it was successful, though the repercussions hit Atlantis exactly as Elizabeth feared they would. In the end, was it worth the risk?

I don't know. Can't really, because there's no way to know what the Replicators would have done or not done if they had been left alone. For all they knew the ships could have been part of the Replicator's plan to take down the Wraith (I'm not really clear on this part of the ep. I don't remember how they got to the conclusion that the ships were to attack Earth, so I could be wrong on this.) If they were right about them attacking Earth, then yes the risk would have been worth it. But part of me still wants to say no it wasn't.

6) After the beam hits Atlantis, First Strike doesn't feel as 'tightly told' as it did in the beginning. What changed, and what should have been done to fix it?

Well, after the beam hits there are suddenly a whole bunch of things going on at once. Getting it to flow as smoothly as the beginning did and still include what needed to be included would have been difficult. It does feel rushed, but given the actual circumstances of what's happening, then it kind of makes sense.

7) Ronon and Teyla don't have much to do here, though it does seem foolish to leave them out of a season finale. How could they have been put to better use?

I don't really think they could have been put to much better use. They couldn't have left them out completely because Ronon and Teyla would have been on Atlantis. And really, not every person realistically has something to do or contribute in every situation. It would have felt somewhat contrived if they'd forced them into a role that didn't have a place in the episode.

8) How did First Strike handle all the elements of defending Atlantis from the beam? Did it feel like a sensible series of developments?

I think they covered all the possibilities that they could, and exhausted every option. That was done well. Yes, it did seem like a logical series of events.

9) Why do you think Ellis felt the need to 'apologize' to Weir as he was leaving? He'd not shown any deference to her before. What changed his mind?

I'm not sure. I'd figured that at that point he had realized that she had been completely justified in her reservations, and that he should have taken her opinion more into account. I think just seeing the consequences of the plan and how Elizabeth handled the situation was what changed his mind.

10) Us not wanting her to be killed of aside, how do you think Elizabeth's 'final' episode as Atlantis's leader was? Did she get good character moments? What about the way she was injured? Was it an ending worthy of her character?

Yeah, she did get some good moments. She appeared strong and capable, and we got to see her get angry, which was nice. As for the injury being a worthy end... yes and no. Mostly no because it just seems really incredible to me that after all that she'd been through, after Wraith attacks and countless other dangers, that she would be killed because she stood too close to a window. It's just... ridiculous. And partially yes simply because that shot of the window exploding in front of her does have a truly epic quality to it.

11) What did YOU think was going to happen six months later, when SGA returned with Adrift? Play out where you saw the story go in your mind based on what you knew at the time.

I can't really answer this one because I didn't see the ep when it aired. *thinks* And for the life of me I can't remember what I thought after I saw it on DVD, whether or not I knew vaguely what was coming. I'm not sure of the timeline, whether S4 had started already.

Sparkalicious bonus

A) John and Elizabeth run into conflict over the strike on Asuras. Was this a reasonable conflict for them? Why did Elizabeth seem so surprised that John did not take her side?

I can't really say anything that hasn't already been covered, but yeah, it was reasonable. She's a civilian and he's military and we tend to have forgotten that distinction. John and Elizabeth had forgotten that too.

B) Early in the episode, there is a tension-filled moment between them where John again tries to explain his decision to side with Ellis and Elizabeth cuts him off, but wishes him 'good luck'. John hesitates after she leaves with a guilty look on his face. What do you think the characters were feeling at that point?

Both of them I think felt betrayed by the other to some extent, because they didn't see things the same way. John felt guilty for disappointing her and siding against her. It makes him uncomfortable and he's not used to it. Elizabeth is having to deal with her disappointment in him, and is also being thrown by their not presenting a united front. His support was always something she could count on, and she's missing it. And I think that, when she says good luck, she's hoping that she's wrong on this, that the plan will work and everything will be fine, but she still knows that she's right and it hurts.

C) Once the beam attacks Atlantis, John and Elizabeth do not share an 'alone' scene, and barely talk. Why do you think Gero switched gears here?

Like SR said, I think it was mostly time. After the beam hits everyone's main focus is on the city and how to get out of this mess, and there really isn't enough time in the episode to show the various stages of the plan to save Atlantis, which were necessary for the cliffhanger, as well as the other stuff that might have made for an even richer episode.

[Erin87]

Yes, please.

Actually, it's alright...work just caught up with me, so I won't be able to do Adrift until Friday or perhaps even Monday.

I do have some 'homework' for people, though--in both the Adrift and Lifeline recaps, I hope to seriously discuss two things: 1) why John and Elizabeth felt not reactivating the nanites was the best course of action, despite the fact that it would kill her; and 2) why Carl Binder wrote the finale 'Elizabeth sacrifice' scene in LL the way he did (we know he had to write her out--I'm more curious as to why it was written the way it was).

To do this effectively, I think we need to go back and rewatch a few eppies from Season 1, 2 and 3 to remind ourselves of what kind of characters John and Elizabeth have been and evolved into for three years. Hot Zone certainly presented a different side of Weir and Sheppard for me, since the most recent episodes I've watched are the end of Season 3. It reminded me of how they started and who they were in the beginning.

So, I'd say watch a couple of these if you can:

1) Poisoning the Well
2) Hot Zone
3) Siege series
4) Trinity
5) Conversion
6) Critical Mass
7) Coup d'etat
8) Common Ground

All of them pretty much feature tough or dangerous decisions--some that may be self-sacrificing or cost the lives of friends--and how the characters have to handle them. While you're enjoying them, watch how Elizabeth and John react in these various situations and see if they can flow into what happens in Adrift and Lifeline.

Hee, I'm already ahead on my homework! I watched Poisoning the Well last night because I was in the mood for some good old fashioned Elizabeth Atlantis. Just thought that was kinda funny. *shrugs*

[ddc]

If anyone's still interested I finally finished Reclaiming Her Life. Last chapter, Return to Pegasus, is up.

[Scary Kitty]

Whoo! Michael's on!

Awww, Lizzie and John are all in their "Mom and Dad of Atlantis" mode!

[Scary Kitty]

5) What did you think about the first strike? Truthfully, it was successful, though the repercussions hit Atlantis exactly as Elizabeth feared they would. In the end, was it worth the risk?

I don't know. Can't really, because there's no way to know what the Replicators would have done or not done if they had been left alone. For all they knew the ships could have been part of the Replicator's plan to take down the Wraith (I'm not really clear on this part of the ep. I don't remember how they got to the conclusion that the ships were to attack Earth, so I could be wrong on this.) If they were right about them attacking Earth, then yes the risk would have been worth it. But part of me still wants to say no it wasn't.

You're right, they didn't really specify how the IOA came to the conclusion that the Replicators were going to attack Earth. The impression I got was that they were assuming that the Replicators were going to go after Earth this time since they'd already tried and failed to destroy/take over Atlantis twice before (Progeny and The Return). Like I said before, Earth really didn't do its homework.

[Scary Kitty]

KATE! *squees and flails*

Poor Michael, he looks so lost here.

[Scary Kitty]

Oooh, Lizzie and John just eyesexed each other with Ronon, Teyla and Carson in the room. Those two have no shame!