Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Scary Kitty]

Now that's what I call outspoken actor. He made his John - face and basically played him in this little happening. Makes you wonder what Joe thinks about Sparky. Oh wait, we know! He said he's sorry John didn't get a chance to hook up with his lady boss. Since Carter is taken, you know what that means.... dot dot dot! Not to mention how much fun everyone else had. I can see Paul and Rachel, they definitely approve of Joe's little idea.

Hahahah! Heck, even Mallozzi looks amused by it! Funny, that.

[KrisRussel]

Hmm, that sounds kinda like Unexpected, by Oparu. Is that the fic you're thinking of?

Yup, that would be the one

Hey, Kris? Remember how you (I think it was you) asked a while ago about that weird omega-like design on the back of Lizzie's black jacket? I found out where it came from! Since it's more a question about Elizabeth, I posted the info over on the Weir/Torri thread, but I'm linking back here since everyone else might be interested, too.

Enjoy!

Lol, I really didn't remember until I saw the pic
Thank you for that little tidbit of information...
How did you ever find out?

Hahahah! Heck, even Mallozzi looks amused by it! Funny, that.

Yup... funny that...

[Southern Red]

Now that's what I call outspoken actor. He made his John - face and basically played him in this little happening. Makes you wonder what Joe thinks about Sparky. Oh wait, we know! He said he's sorry John didn't get a chance to hook up with his lady boss. Since Carter is taken, you know what that means.... dot dot dot! Not to mention how much fun everyone else had. I can see Paul and Rachel, they definitely approve of Joe's little idea.

He sure did say that didn't he. And I think just calling RP his "hot new leading lady" tells us that he thought his former leading lady was hot. Funny how when the conversation turned to who was going to kiss Weir, Joe immediately went into his "John" mode and told the world who he thought it should be. God I love that man. They never could get him to spout the company line, could they? And didn't JM say one possible scenario for S6 had John going to rescue Elizabeth. So if that had happened who knows...

But seriously folks. We know these people are actors. They look at things in two ways:

1. How will this be good for my career...i.e. more screentime, better stories, wider range of emotions to show, acting skills to stretch, something to put on my audition DVD?

2. How will this be good for the character I'm playing...i.e. more screentime, better and different stories, ...?

Putting John and Elizabeth together in a romantic story would have been good for Torri's career. Hooking her up with the leading man would have elevated her in the eyes of the viewers and would have given her something new to do where she could stretch. The same is true of any other actress they might have matched with him. Anyone would be stupid not to want that to happen. But what it comes down to is the writers, no matter how much we disagree with what they ended up doing. If they didn't write it, film it and edit it into the final cut, it didn't happen. But what showed up on the screen, at least as far as Sparky went, kind of made the writing look superfluous sometimes. How? Because Sparky was so obvious. It was like that old saying "I can't hear what you're saying because it's drowned out by what you're doing" or something like that.

Actually the Sparky story was very good for both Joe and Torri. They got to show emotion of a personal nature and especially Joe got to continue showing that depth of feeling for S4-S5. Delightfully angsty and wonderfully acted.

[Scary Kitty]

He sure did say that didn't he. And I think just calling RP his "hot new leading lady" tells us that he thought his former leading lady was hot. Funny how when the conversation turned to who was going to kiss Weir, Joe immediately went into his "John" mode and told the world who he thought it should be. God I love that man. They never could get him to spout the company line, could they? And didn't JM say one possible scenario for S6 had John going to rescue Elizabeth. So if that had happened who knows...

Or at the very least, another Replicator story, meaning we might have seen Elizabeth again, meaning we'd have the opportunity for John to angst over her some more.

And let's not forget that comment by Joe in the SG magazine about wanting Sheppard to have a relationship with someone "who's like, my boss."

But seriously folks. We know these people are actors. They look at things in two ways:

1. How will this be good for my career...i.e. more screentime, better stories, wider range of emotions to show, acting skills to stretch, something to put on my audition DVD?

2. How will this be good for the character I'm playing...i.e. more screentime, better and different stories, ...?

Putting John and Elizabeth together in a romantic story would have been good for Torri's career. Hooking her up with the leading man would have elevated her in the eyes of the viewers and would have given her something new to do where she could stretch. The same is true of any other actress they might have matched with him. Anyone would be stupid not to want that to happen. But what it comes down to is the writers, no matter how much we disagree with what they ended up doing. If they didn't write it, film it and edit it into the final cut, it didn't happen. But what showed up on the screen, at least as far as Sparky went, kind of made the writing look superfluous sometimes. How? Because Sparky was so obvious. It was like that old saying "I can't hear what you're saying because it's drowned out by what you're doing" or something like that.

Actually the Sparky story was very good for both Joe and Torri. They got to show emotion of a personal nature and especially Joe got to continue showing that depth of feeling for S4-S5. Delightfully angsty and wonderfully acted.

Yup. Actions speak louder than words, and all that. The way John acted just screamed that he felt more for Elizabeth than mere friendship and that her loss was more devastating to him than any other loss he's suffered. And the scripts have given Joe plenty of room to play with that on screen even without Torri's presence. It sure looks like he sees something more there to stretch his own acting skills.

[Eri13]

Yeah, the whole S1 Sparky situation gets a bit sticky if you remember Simon. I think Elizabeth's moral center couldn't allow her to be even mentally unfaithful to Simon in those days. It wasn't until she was totally rid of him that she began looking at John in a whole new way. Plus John himself had grown and matured quite a bit...the burden of command...and they had gotten closer.

And I think once she left Earth she pretty much knew she and Simon were over. She was just too good a person to dump him outright. Another place where the writers dropped the ball because they made her look cruel at times in the way she left him without a good explanation.

It was also weird how they sort of flipped things and had Simon cheat on her, so all of suddenly her leaving him behind was sort of exonerated. Good writers would have had Simon angry with her because she left him behind and yelling at her for it, telling her how he felt betrayed, etc. Instead we get 'oh, yeah. After a year of you gone to another galaxy I decided to hook up with someone else. Sorry.'

I liked Blood Ties. The story connecting Earth and Atlantis was really creative and different from the kind of weak and contrived excuses we've seen on the show. It brought in the mythological tie-in to real events in the Stargate universe that we haven't seen in a while, even though it was a hallmark of the premise behind Stargate to begin with. And because of all that, the crossover with SG-1 characters, especially Daniel, made so much more sense than most of the crossovers we've seen on the show.

Plus, we get to see more whumping of Sheppard, and that's always fun.

I begin to think that I'm cursed.
I try to order some SGA books but my Internet connexion doesn't let me do this. I want to post my report about "Before I sleep" but I can't. I don't know if this post will appear on this thread....
Sga novels like "Angelus", "Reliquary", "Rising" are not good?

I read Reliquary and it was a good team story. My husband also read and liked it. I don't recall any Sparky to speak of. Oh and Rising is pretty much like the pilot. The ending is a tiny bit different and it definitely foreshadows a John/Teyla connection which at the time was the intent. But I guess they changed their minds later. If I'm not mistaken, I think John thinks about how attractive Elizabeth is at one point. My book is waaaayyy down in the basement and I'm waaayyy upstairs. So I choose to just guess wildly. I stopped buying them because there's so much good fanfic that's free and I only read Sparky anyway. So humpf.

Rising was rather pedantic, since it was truly based off the script. There were a few different elements in it (like Sumner was a lot meaner in the book, if I remember correctly)...

My favorites by far were Mirror, Mirror, Casualties of War, Exogenesis and Reliquary. The Chosen wasn't one of my favorites, despite being written by Christensen/Whitelaw, because there wasn't a lot of Elizabeth involved and Rodney was really annoying.

Reliquary wasn't Sparky heavy but there were a few great moments. I love John going off on Bates because he wasn't protecting Elizabeth. Exogenesis could have been a movie, it's that good--the plotline was extremely interesting, there was a ton for all the characters to do, nobody was wasted, there was some genuinely good angst, and there actually was some Sparky--particularly since John and Elizabeth get into a fight at one point. Rodney was a great character in that book. And John's musings on Elizabeth as she places herself in a sacrificial position are priceless for Sparkies.

But, yeah, Casualties of War is great for Elizabeth fans (Strangely, I actually don't read a ton of Sparky into it, because of the way it's handled--it feels like an incredibly strong bond but it's very canon in it's treatment of Elizabeth' Point of View).

Mirror, Mirror was the BEST. There's that great resuscitation scene (and SK forgot to mention how John basically freaks out during that whole scene); plus there's a great imagery scene where, when he finds the 'real' Elizabeth him the first time, she's walking towards him in a white dress with flowers floating around her. *teeth*. I was like 'geez, romantic imagery much?'

There's a lot of grabbing and holding involved in that journey down the river--it's just great J/E stuff. And I actually really like Teyla and Ronon in that story too--a lot characterization to Ronon and Teyla's just awesome. If you're a Spanky fan, there's some Spanky in it, too.

Blood Ties I was sorta half and half on. Some really good John moments, and Elizabeth is great in it (I love her driving in Colorado, for some reason) but I was sorta thrown by the dinosaur plotline on one end and the vampire thing on the other. And not enough of the characters to really pull me into the story.

[Scary Kitty]

It was also weird how they sort of flipped things and had Simon cheat on her, so all of suddenly her leaving him behind was sort of exonerated. Good writers would have had Simon angry with her because she left him behind and yelling at her for it, telling her how he felt betrayed, etc. Instead we get 'oh, yeah. After a year of you gone to another galaxy I decided to hook up with someone else. Sorry.'

I guess maybe they're justification for the weakness of Simon's reaction in Intruder was that it had been a year, and he'd had time to get the anger out of his system and become resigned to the whole thing. At least, that's my guess. And yeah, it's still weak.

Rising was rather pedantic, since it was truly based off the script. There were a few different elements in it (like Sumner was a lot meaner in the book, if I remember correctly)...

More stuff with Simon and Elizabeth's family, too. Would've been nice to see some of that in the episode.

My favorites by far were Mirror, Mirror, Casualties of War, Exogenesis and Reliquary. The Chosen wasn't one of my favorites, despite being written by Christensen/Whitelaw, because there wasn't a lot of Elizabeth involved and Rodney was really annoying.

Reliquary wasn't Sparky heavy but there were a few great moments. I love John going off on Bates because he wasn't protecting Elizabeth. Exogenesis could have been a movie, it's that good--the plotline was extremely interesting, there was a ton for all the characters to do, nobody was wasted, there was some genuinely good angst, and there actually was some Sparky--particularly since John and Elizabeth get into a fight at one point. Rodney was a great character in that book. And John's musings on Elizabeth as she places herself in a sacrificial position are priceless for Sparkies.

But, yeah, Casualties of War is great for Elizabeth fans (Strangely, I actually don't read a ton of Sparky into it, because of the way it's handled--it feels like an incredibly strong bond but it's very canon in it's treatment of Elizabeth' Point of View).

A thousand times yes to all of that.

Chosen was Whitelaw/Christensen's first outing together and was written when SGA itself was still very new, so I'd chalk up it's flaws to that. I actually loved Reliquary most for it's plotline of screwing with the ATA gene; we always see the advantages to having the gene, but we've never seen the flipside of that on the series. Exogenesis was a roller coaster ride from beginning to end. Forget a movie; they would've had to make it into a miniseries!

Mirror, Mirror was the BEST. There's that great resuscitation scene (and SK forgot to mention how John basically freaks out during that whole scene); plus there's a great imagery scene where, when he finds the 'real' Elizabeth him the first time, she's walking towards him in a white dress with flowers floating around her. *teeth*. I was like 'geez, romantic imagery much?'

And then there's the part after he's revived her, where Elizabeth's all like, 'you saved my life' and John's freaking out again and thinking he's so not worthy of her high regard and that it's all his fault, etc. I feasted on that for days.

There's a lot of grabbing and holding involved in that journey down the river--it's just great J/E stuff. And I actually really like Teyla and Ronon in that story too--a lot characterization to Ronon and Teyla's just awesome. If you're a Spanky fan, there's some Spanky in it, too.

The Teyla and Ronon stuff just about killed me, it was so amazing. More of the kind of great stuff we should've seen on the show all along.

Blood Ties I was sorta half and half on. Some really good John moments, and Elizabeth is great in it (I love her driving in Colorado, for some reason) but I was sorta thrown by the dinosaur plotline on one end and the vampire thing on the other. And not enough of the characters to really pull me into the story.

Telepathic dinosaurs, no less. That was... interesting.

[Killdeer]

I read in the Amazon reviews that Blood Ties had this major Mary Sue character - would you all agree with that or no?

[Southern Red]

Or at the very least, another Replicator story, meaning we might have seen Elizabeth again, meaning we'd have the opportunity for John to angst over her some more.

And let's not forget that comment by Joe in the SG magazine about wanting Sheppard to have a relationship with someone "who's like, my boss."



Yup. Actions speak louder than words, and all that. The way John acted just screamed that he felt more for Elizabeth than mere friendship and that her loss was more devastating to him than any other loss he's suffered. And the scripts have given Joe plenty of room to play with that on screen even without Torri's presence. It sure looks like he sees something more there to stretch his own acting skills.

He had to. Lord knows it wasn't in the script. I think in S5 he just got tired of it all. And yes we never saw John angst that much over anyone else. All the times he thought Rodney was about to die, he did a bit of angsting but getting busy and solving the problem came first. With Elizabeth he felt helpless.

[Eri13]

I read in the Amazon reviews that Blood Ties had this major Mary Sue character - would you all agree with that or no?

It did. Nothing that would have interrupted canon flow--the guys weren't drooling over her or anything--but she was definitely created for convenience. Neat twist to her character, but that may have been one of the reasons Blood Ties just didn't sell me--they devoted more time to her than to many of our other major characters.

When I pick up a tie-in novel, I generally do so to enjoy more of the characters I enjoy, rather than meet 'new' characters. The most I'd want are new villains, or secondary characters important to the plot (like the secondary characters in Halcyon, or Entanglement) not a character who holds as much importance as John or Daniel.

I'll head to read original fiction for that.

[Killdeer]

Thanks for the reply. I agree - I don't tend to enjoy tie-in novels that spend a lot of time on an original character. I've ran across a couple of Trek novels like that.

[Southern Red]

It did. Nothing that would have interrupted canon flow--the guys weren't drooling over her or anything--but she was definitely created for convenience. Neat twist to her character, but that may have been one of the reasons Blood Ties just didn't sell me--they devoted more time to her than to many of our other major characters.

When I pick up a tie-in novel, I generally do so to enjoy more of the characters I enjoy, rather than meet 'new' characters. The most I'd want are new villains, or secondary characters important to the plot (like the secondary characters in Halcyon, or Entanglement) not a character who holds as much importance as John or Daniel.

I'll head to read original fiction for that.

Thanks for your reviews of the novels. I ordered Mirror Mirror from Amazon. Sounds like it has enough Sparky even for me.

[Scary Kitty]

He had to. Lord knows it wasn't in the script. I think in S5 he just got tired of it all. And yes we never saw John angst that much over anyone else. All the times he thought Rodney was about to die, he did a bit of angsting but getting busy and solving the problem came first. With Elizabeth he felt helpless.

That's the key. Every other time someone in Team Atlantis has been in trouble, Sheppard's been able to take action and do something about it. (And that includes the previous times when Elizabeth was endangered, like TRW.) But this time, there was nothing he could do, and he knew it. And that paralyzed him. No one else has been able to get that kind of reaction out of him.

[Scary Kitty]

I read in the Amazon reviews that Blood Ties had this major Mary Sue character - would you all agree with that or no?

I'd have to agree with Eri; Larance was definitely more Mary Sue-ish than secondary characters in the other novels, and that she got so much personal POV "screentime" and one of the big plot twists was clearly made to beef up her own importance to the story... yeah. She certainly wasn't as bad as some Mary Sue characters I've seen in fanfic over the years (oh, the horror stories I could tell you about Power Rangers fanfic. LOL), but she did get me twitching in spots.

[Eri13]

Thanks for your reviews of the novels. I ordered Mirror Mirror from Amazon. Sounds like it has enough Sparky even for me.

Oh yessssssssss...*rubs hands* I know it can't compare to some of the fanfic out there, but for a canon based novel it is quite enjoyable. And overall the story's pretty cool.

And you (and Killdeer) are welcome. There is a post around here somewhere that gives my complete rundown of all the SGA novels--I've read them all through Blood Ties.

I'll probably wait for user reviews of the rest, though I'll more than likely be picking up the Elizabeth-memoirs one.

[Probie]

It was also weird how they sort of flipped things and had Simon cheat on her, so all of suddenly her leaving him behind was sort of exonerated. Good writers would have had Simon angry with her because she left him behind and yelling at her for it, telling her how he felt betrayed, etc. Instead we get 'oh, yeah. After a year of you gone to another galaxy I decided to hook up with someone else. Sorry.'


Rising was rather pedantic, since it was truly based off the script. There were a few different elements in it (like Sumner was a lot meaner in the book, if I remember correctly)...

My favorites by far were Mirror, Mirror, Casualties of War, Exogenesis and Reliquary. The Chosen wasn't one of my favorites, despite being written by Christensen/Whitelaw, because there wasn't a lot of Elizabeth involved and Rodney was really annoying.

Reliquary wasn't Sparky heavy but there were a few great moments. I love John going off on Bates because he wasn't protecting Elizabeth. Exogenesis could have been a movie, it's that good--the plotline was extremely interesting, there was a ton for all the characters to do, nobody was wasted, there was some genuinely good angst, and there actually was some Sparky--particularly since John and Elizabeth get into a fight at one point. Rodney was a great character in that book. And John's musings on Elizabeth as she places herself in a sacrificial position are priceless for Sparkies.

But, yeah, Casualties of War is great for Elizabeth fans (Strangely, I actually don't read a ton of Sparky into it, because of the way it's handled--it feels like an incredibly strong bond but it's very canon in it's treatment of Elizabeth' Point of View).

Mirror, Mirror was the BEST. There's that great resuscitation scene (and SK forgot to mention how John basically freaks out during that whole scene); plus there's a great imagery scene where, when he finds the 'real' Elizabeth him the first time, she's walking towards him in a white dress with flowers floating around her. *teeth*. I was like 'geez, romantic imagery much?'

There's a lot of grabbing and holding involved in that journey down the river--it's just great J/E stuff. And I actually really like Teyla and Ronon in that story too--a lot characterization to Ronon and Teyla's just awesome. If you're a Spanky fan, there's some Spanky in it, too.

Blood Ties I was sorta half and half on. Some really good John moments, and Elizabeth is great in it (I love her driving in Colorado, for some reason) but I was sorta thrown by the dinosaur plotline on one end and the vampire thing on the other. And not enough of the characters to really pull me into the story.

Oh Thank you. That's exactly what I needed to make a choice.