Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Southern Red]

I join



Torri that's stunning!

well, next to your wps mine look really crapy *cryz*

*spanks Luci and Torri* Stop it. You're both brilliant. And Anuna already sporked me for doing the same thing, so there.

Really? Man this makes me want to go watch the commentaries again to see if they mention anything. So many great sparky moments and so little time.

Me too, I love this discussion but time is a factor. Can we keep Epiphany going at least until Wednesday? *puppy eyes*

[Linda06]

Welcome!



Great questions as usual. Need to re-watch the eppy!



Yes, that's what he is saying. And the look on Elizabeth's face!



That's the first urban Sparky legend - that they went back later and shot that last scene after they realized the chemisty between J/E.



Hiya Linda! Nice to see you.

Um hey......Um hope no one minded that i dropped in

[LiliJ]

*speechless*

AMAZING wp Luciana! Your artwork rules!

[Torri012]

*jumps up and down with joy*

Have finally finished my first sig! Compared to the amazing ones on this thread it's nothing special but meh, it's my first and I don't have Gimp!

[ATTACH]5841[/ATTACH]

(Click to see larger image - gw resizes my pics cos I'm a newbie!)

hey, for it being your first its really good!
i wish i started off like that ....
keep on trying and you'll quickly get better and better .. believe me

[Eri13]

*spanks Luci and Torri* Stop it. You're both brilliant. And Anuna already sporked me for doing the same thing, so there.




Me too, I love this discussion but time is a factor. Can we keep Epiphany going at least until Wednesday? *puppy eyes*

Just for you, SR...I won't post CM commentary until Wednesday EST.

But...that means everyone should watch Epiphany and Critical Mass Back to BACK! >8D

Um hey......Um hope no one minded that i dropped in

Of course not! You're most welcome here!

[Falcon Horus]

*little lemming scurries in*

I'm here to support the beauty that is Sparky.

*scurries back out*

[Southern Red]

Okay, here's my crack at the Q's.


1) What do you think John's initial feelings were in the cave, when he finally realized no one was coming for him?

I think first he was surprised, then angry and frustrated. I'm not sure he ever fully realized they were never coming. I fault the writers for not making it clear. I think the John we know would have gone through several scenarios in his mind to explain it. He would have known it was some strange phenomenon or some good reason for them not to at least send supplies through right away.

2) Why did Elizabeth feel it was so important to physically accompany them to the Sanctuary world? (okay, on a Sparky note we know why, but give me some meat, too).

I think not knowing what was happening was a big factor. Also she was concerned that John was lost and alone. In addition she felt she could use her translation skills to help. This was a chance to repay him for all the times he had saved so many others. Finally it was a way for her to help save him for a change.

3) Who do you think was most worried for John? First Rodney because he was the only one who really understood what was happening. Then Carson because of the medical implications. Elizabeth would have been thinking of the emotional aspects and knew that he must be feeling abandoned.

4) How long do you think it took for John to finally 'assimilate' into the Sanctuary society?

I don't think he ever did. In the scene with them when they were eating and Teer told him his friends had come, he was still trying to convince them their lives were empty. I think he just resigned himself on a daily basis to go with the flow. As I said earlier, as soon as he knew his friends had come and especially when he found out they were in danger, he hurried off to help them. Teer, on the other hand, realized when John was talking about them not really living that John would never be happy with her. She was at heart a very good person.

5) Imagine John's feelings towards his team members who hadn't yet come for him. Who does he blame most? Who does he want to see most? What do you think he imagines Elizabeth is doing with regards to his situation? Rodney? Teyla and Ronon?

He blames Rodney most because he's the genius who always figures things out. John thinks he's just not important enough for them to put in the effort. He knows better, but his abandonment issues are stronger than common sense. He wants to see all of them equally. He mentions that he has responsibility on several occasions. He thinks they need him back in Atlantis, but at times he's not so sure. He thinks Elizabeth is probably following protocol, Rodney is thinking it through, and Teyla/Ronon are alternately arguing for him to hurry and supporting him. I think John would expect Teyla especially to act toward Rodney as he would if he were there.

6) Why does Elizabeth decide 'she's going', even when Rodney insists it's safer she stay?

Because she knows on this occasion that she can help. Also she wants to see for herself that John is all right and knows he will need her emotional support.

7) What do you think John felt when he saw not just SGA-1, but Elizabeth and Carson?

He probably thought, "oh crap, I'm in more trouble than I thought". LOL Then he realized that he had been wrong about them. However, by his face in the final frame or two I think his emotions haven't quite caught up with reality. JF did a great job of acting in this one.

8) What prompted John's lashing out at Elizabeth? Was her response to him correct?

I'm not sure he did lash out at her any more than the others. She went over to him. He looked at her and then even as he was saying "what took you so long?" he was looking around at the others also. Personally, I think some people made a big deal out of this because they want him to blame her and think it shows their relationship was not friendly. Nonsense, I say. If anything, he would have thought she would never have given up on him.

9) Do you think the ascension of Teer and her people was believable?

Pretty much. They had to release that last burden. And I think it's significant that they asked John to come with them. He can ascend if he wants to. He doesn't want to.

10) Joe F. helped develop Epiphany as a backstory of sorts for Sheppard. Do you think it accomplished the purpose of giving you more insight into John? Did you learn more about he and his character? Or did it feel run of the mill 'team member in trouble' for you?

I have trouble answering this without thinking about all the times I've read interviews and con reports in which JF talks about this ep. He always said it is largely unrecognizable from his story. I think the cave part was mostly his idea, but not the hippies.

Yes, I think we got more insight into John. From calling himself by name and scolding himself in the cave to being depressed, to never giving up trying to convince them their life was empty to the abandonment issues, we learned a lot about John. He is basically insecure. Someone had high expectations for him that he could never live up to. He has a basic appreciation for life and the simple joys (thunder storms). He has been disappointed a lot by people he cared about. He lets himself be manipulated by people who seem to care about him. And he always pretends all of it doesn't really matter. Too bad we haven't gotten to see all these aspects developed.

Whew, I'm exhausted.

[Scary Kitty]

My errands are done, lunch has been devoured... It's time to play on the Sparky thread! Yay!

So, Eri's got some questions on Epiphany:

1) What do you think John's initial feelings were in the cave, when he finally realized no one was coming for him?

Shock and anger that the others had given up so quickly (in his mind), resignation that he was on his own and he'd have to find his own way out.

2) Why did Elizabeth feel it was so important to physically accompany them to the Sanctuary world? (okay, on a Sparky note we know why, but give me some meat, too).

Her fascination with all things Ancient; to learn whatever she could from the texts left behind at the doorway about how and why the Ancients would've built such a place.

3) Who do you think was most worried for John?

Rodney, Elizabeth and Carson. Teyla and Ronon are warriors and survivors like John; the two of them know that he can survive in the wild unknown, the time dilation effect notwithstanding. The others understand it in an intellectual sense, but have likely never experienced being alone in the wilderness like that.

4) How long do you think it took for John to finally 'assimilate' into the Sanctuary society?

I don't think he ever assimilated. He doesn't think like Teer's people, and he didn't want to.

5) Imagine John's feelings towards his team members who hadn't yet come for him. Who does he blame most? Who does he want to see most? What do you think he imagines Elizabeth is doing with regards to his situation? Rodney? Teyla and Ronon?

I'm not sure that he really "blamed" anyone; he's certainly upset that he's stuck, and maybe mad at himself for going in so quickly. I think he just wants to see all of his friends again.

6) Why does Elizabeth decide 'she's going', even when Rodney insists it's safer she stay?

She makes a point about needing to go in case there are additional texts inside that she would need to translate in order to shut down the field. I think she was certainly curious to see what was inside the field. And, of course, finding John.

7) What do you think John felt when he saw not just SGA-1, but Elizabeth and Carson?

Well, once he got over his shock I think he was happy to see that they had come themselves instead of staying back in Atlantis to wait for the rest of the team to return with him.

8) What prompted John's lashing out at Elizabeth? Was her response to him correct?

I think his lashing out was him finally giving vent to all the frustration and fear that he'd been feeling, and Elizabeth, as the expedition leader, is the most obvious target. And her response to him was correct; from his reaction to seeing the team, it must have been obvious to her that he had no idea what had really happened to him and so she needed to tell him what happened and that she and the others had been working as fast as they could to get him out. From past experience, she knows how serious he is about not leaving people behind, and thus she would know how important it is to make him understand that they hadn't abandoned him.

9) Do you think the ascension of Teer and her people was believable?

Teer, yes, the rest of her people, not so much. Teer began to change over the course of the episode, going out to stand beside John when The Beast first entered the Cloister. But it took the others until the end of the episode to get even that far in overcoming their fears.

10) Joe F. helped develop Epiphany as a backstory of sorts for Sheppard. Do you think it accomplished the purpose of giving you more insight into John? Did you learn more about he and his character? Or did it feel run of the mill 'team member in trouble' for you?

It definitely reinforced my impression that the idea of not leaving anyone behind is very deeply ingrained in John's character, and that he expects it to be applied to him just as equally as he applies it to others.

[Scary Kitty]

I had a little Epiphany of my own while walking on the treadmill earlier. See what you all think.

I was thinking about how Sparky will always be canon. Nothing they do at this point can change the relationship they had. We saw him grieve for her in S4. There's no way anyone can explain that away though I know they try. So, someday John will move on maybe with a new relationship. But it won't matter because he'll always have Elizabeth in his heart.

And here's where Epiphany comes in. After he got done being depressed he decided to accept what they were telling him about never being able to go home. He settled in, tried to meditate, developed a routine and made a life for himself among the hippies. He even accepted Teer's overtures without protest or much thought. He figured that she was his destiny at this point in time and he probably had some level of affection for her. Over time he may even have grown to love her. He was hurt that his friends had seemingly given up on him and was moving on. But as soon as he knew they had come for him, he dropped the hippies like a hot rock. It has been said that he even had the ability to ascend and I believe that because of the fact that Teer encouraged him to come with them. She knew he was capable. I think John can ascend any time he wants to but he has such a sense of responsibility for his "family" that it would never cross his mind.

Now, back to the ship. There may be now or in the future some woman that John has attraction and some level of affection for. He may settle down with her because of his intense sense of responsibility even to the point of living a contented life with her. I don't think John Sheppard will ever be truly happy. That doesn't seem possible, but he will find peace and allow someone to love him just like he was preparing to do with Teer. But I also believe that Elizabeth will always be there and in moments of weakness she'll be the first thing he thinks of.

I love this! The board won't let me green you, so mental green!

I don't think he would ever truly be happy, either. He would be content, at peace, but not happy. Because he's not with her. She will always be first in his heart, no matter who comes after

I would reach the compromise of: it's canon, just not preferred. With the work of the actors, people like Binder, and even inadvertent moments which turned into Sparky (like TS/TE), it's definitely canon because it made it through editing--and kept showing up.

It wasn't the preferred vehicle of TPTB, so they can disclaim the intention of making it mainstream, but canonically speaking, it's completely there.

Exactly. When it comes to TV/film-based fandoms like Stargate, Star Trek, Star Wars, and the like, the one hard rule is that if it's on screen, it's canon.

Sparky is on screen. Therefore, it is canon. Even what TPTB state off screen as their preference cannot take precedence over what is shown on screen.

Sparky is on screen. Therefore, it is canon.

Game over, TPTB. Game over.

[Torri012]

WALLPAPER SPAM!

i cant decide which is better .... help!

spoiler for size... as always

Spoiler:

[Scary Kitty]

WALLPAPER SPAM!

i cant decide which is better .... help!

spoiler for size... as always

Spoiler:

http://pics.livejournal.com/torri012/pic/00026fcz


http://pics.livejournal.com/torri012/pic/00027pf4

You mean I have to choose?!?

I love them both!

Purple's my favorite color, but I like the green too, because it brings out the green in their eyes.

Beautiful!

[Eri13]

Torri, for some reason whenever you put up a pic I can't see it...can you include a hyperlink in your spoiler tags, too? It may have to do with the fact that I use Firefox instead of IE or Safari...

I'm out today Sparkies! See you tomorrow for revival day number 2!

[Reiko]

Spoiler:

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w76/Wormhole-2007/EchoesImage3.jpg

If I can just loose Rodney, that closet would do nicely.

» Hee! Good one

Here is the link. Enjoy Reiko. Hope you like it.
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w...parky_kiss.jpg

» Awww, that's good! Hee, John should just be sure his comm is turned off.

Um hey......Um hope no one minded that i dropped in

» Of course not! You are teh awesome

[Linda06]

Thanks for being so nice guys....And tell Anuna i said hi and i'm sorry i missed her!

[Southern Red]

You mean I have to choose?!?

I love them both!

Purple's my favorite color, but I like the green too, because it brings out the green in their eyes.

Beautiful!

Purple for me. And the pics are beautifooooool!.