Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Bama]

Great discussion about UST/RST. It looks like we are in total agreement here. Now if only TPTB paid attention. They don't have to totally resolve the ship right away, but they do need to stop giving with one hand and taking away with the other. TLG was a prime example. We now have both shipper groups squeeing about this one episode, and let me tell you it's like somehow two different versions of the thing were beamed into our homes. Proving once again that sometimes ship is in the eye of the beholder. That's the writers messing with us, and frankly it's starting to annoy. At some point in the X-Files years I lost interest in that ship and ceased to care. I'm not at that point yet with SGA, but I think season 3 will be the turning point. Let's think about UST with both ships. What will change if Shep and Teyla get together? I know being objective is hard, but let's try to look at it not from a realistic standpoint but from the twisted and confused minds of the writers. I can see them writing that couple as having a tender and caring relationship that even after they get together will change nothing about the team. Let's face it. They are not going to break up the #1 team. They'll do the brother/sister thing with Ronon, throw in a little romance with J/T and leave it there. Now, I know what you're thinking. So am I. They'll have to show them actually having a conversation. They'll do that. It will take up a few seconds of screen time, and then they'll move on. The awkward male version of RST. Now, what will have to change if Shep and Weir get together? I say nothing. Nada, nil, zilch. They already have what I consider tender moments. Private time when he seeks her out, sits on her desk and tries to make her feel better. Sounds like a relationship to me. It would be a natural progression to add a little romance. Some hand touching, a hand on a shoulder, a touch to the face, a little hug, a tiny kiss on the forehead, and finally in season 4 or 5 we could have RST. A verbal declaration followed by a real kiss. Throw in some angst about protocol, a good rousing knock down drag out blood-pumping argument about why they can't be together followed by the mutual realization that they have to or die, and then we've got a story. But in no way does it have to interfere with plot, action or character development. See that's the major point of confusion between shippers and non/anti-shippers. They think we want the show to be about ship. We don't. Even we admit we'll lose interest in that. Okay, now we've got them together. What happens next? It's like some of you said before. Little things. All of us know husband/wife duos who run businesses or work together some way. They manage to get through the day without jumping each other on top of a desk. I think John and Elizabeth could do that. In fact, I think being a bonded couple would make them stronger leaders. Sorry for the long rant. Ya'll just made so many good points, I had to try to sum it all up and hope somebody, anybody is listening.

Oh, and Congratulations to all those whose country won a medal.

Yep...Yep...timing is everything. Someone posted the other day about how 'timing' was the key for the writers. There will be moments of opportunity and it is important that the writers don't let them pass by. The Siege 3 'moment' was a golden 'RL' opporutnity that the writers cashed in on. There will be others at special times that must be given their due. I don't think AU -TLG was one of those really although it's main shippy purpose was carried out beautifully with that final scene. And the important thing that TLG did was

Spoiler:

solidify the idea of physical between Sheppard and Weir as a viable possibility to each of them and others.

The importance of *that* given their current leadership positions and closer than close evergrowing friendship is flat out huge.

The XF is a perfect example of 'blown' timing. You don't build up to a point and then pull back-it's bad writing and it's bad for the relationship.

I agree SR that S3 is the time to pay the piper in regard to the writers nailing down a distinct and visable ship path. The playing is fine to a point but there comes a time when the logic of a situation has to trump the playing and anyone who isn't totally blind to it would have to see the logical progression of the SWR as being the path.

[Major_Moomin]

ok...because I'm completely shattered and can't summon the energy to reply to these wonderful posts... I'm just gonna nod *nods* and completely agree with everything that's been said
"I completely agree with what's been said"

Annnd..I'm gonna post some sparky pics because I think we're being seriously deprived here...

[mentalmichael]

I agree SR that S3 is the time to pay the piper in regard to the writers nailing down a distinct and visable ship path. The playing is fine to a point but there comes a time when the logic of a situation has to trump the playing and anyone who isn't totally blind to it would have to see the logical progression of the SWR as being the path.

Amen to that, if they keep playing around with us throughout season 3 then I think a lot of people will lose interest, or at least lose faith in the writers.

Also, I'm trying to find a sparky fic. I remember nothing about it except that Elizabeth sat in some ancient chair and it altered her brain kinda like what happened in the Fifth race except she started to develop some kind of psychic powers. I know its *really* vague, but I can't find it anywhere so I figured I would turn to the professionals for help

[Major_Moomin]

Also, I'm trying to find a sparky fic. I remember nothing about it except that Elizabeth sat in some ancient chair and it altered her brain kinda like what happened in the Fifth race except she started to develop some kind of psychic powers. I know its *really* vague, but I can't find it anywhere so I figured I would turn to the professionals for help

Oooh. I think I know which one you mean...is it ' the sound of colour'?

Can't remember who it's by..or where it is... but it's great!

[Southern Red]

We are sadly lacking in pics today. Let's get on the ball out there.

Does anyone still seriously believe this thing is all one-sided?

[Bama]

I reeeaaallly don't want to get started on trying to understand Sheyla. However. Here's what I think, at least today. If TPTB are going with S/T, then I want to be able to accept it. But like you guys said it's just not there. I have tried. Really tried. I've run scenes in slo mo, I've looped areas over and over, but there are just never any lusty looks, even affectionate looks between them. Take the jumper scene in TLG for instance

Spoiler:

Shep and Rodney are telling them about TV. Teyla and John exchange an amused look that lasts about 2 seconds. Then later she and Ronon just give each other lingering looks. Teyla smiles that lovely crooked smile of hers and ducks her head. Now I don't know about you people, but when I used to flirt back in the day, that little move was in my arsenal of "come hithers". And it usually worked. still does on Mr.Red As for Rodney's reaction to the "he cares" moment. That to me is a matter of interpretation. They say he reacts like he knows it's true. I thought he showed surprise and disbelief, and so did my husband. If he does believe it, then why did he give that delighted little chuckle when they kissed. And I don't see how anybody could interpret that one differently.

We see what we want to see sometimes, but my theory and I'm sticking to it is that almost everybody at this point including those who want S/T see the moments between John and Elizabeth. Some people just insist it's only friendship, and that's ok. I'm getting a headache trying to understand both Sheyla and TPTB, so I'm going back to *la la la*.

I know it's been said better by others many times before me but Shep really doesn't ever act as if he's remotely interested in Teyla -the person. She's from another culture but does he immerse himself in trying to understand it? Does he seek out the small things that make her different from an Earth woman? Does he try and have smalltalk convos over coffee or in the jumper bay about what she likes to do in her spare time? No. Never. In the very few instances when opportunities have been there for Shep/Teyla bonding such as 'Home' and 'The Storm' - Shep acts more interested in just about anything else. Other than his respect for her as a fighter or a mild acknowledgement of her good looks, we see absolutely nothing to suggest that Sheppard is interested in pursuing anything deeper with Teyla. If a man is interested in a woman, he actively seeks her out for smalltalk; he finds time to have her attention to only himself. He asks leading and loaded questions to find out more about her as a person-he tries to gauge her thoughts, ideas, mores and feelings on topics of mutual interest. He wants her reactions and opinons over all others.

We get none of that between Shep and Teyla. However, we *do* get some of that with John and 'Lizabeth. In fact, we get enough of it that it catches your attention and makes you go 'whoa! - What's really going on here that isn't being admitted?' My husband made an interesting point imo during an episode recently after I commented on how much I liked how John sought out Elizabeth just to talk to her. He told me that was what told him that's who he'd end up with eventually. "He actually wants to talk to her. A man generally doesn't just want to talk and discuss things with a woman unless he's got some pretty deep feelings for her."

Now, I don't know-I'm a woman but I do know that he gives me a different set of eyes and different gender perspective to see thru.

[xfkirsten]

I will admit that back in the early episodes of Season 1, I thought Sheyla was going to be the major ship of the show, the one that was going to drive everyone mad, much as S/J did in SG-1 (still does... Oy...). We saw their first meeting in Rising, and then there was his rigorous defense of her and the Athosians in Suspicion.

But as time passed and we saw John hanging out more and more with Elizabeth, I was eventually converted to Teh Pretty that is Sparky. When I saw his reaction to Koyla's declaration to kill Elizabeth in The Storm, I can remember thinking, "Oh boy, Koyla is so dead if he does this. John will have his head on a silver platter." I think that was the real beginning of my love for Sparky. It was only added to by the moments that followed in episodes like The Eye, Before I Sleep, and The Siege, Part 2, just to name a few.

With this in mind, I looked back at the whole Sheyla thing and I figured, eh, they're more like good friends anyway. John's got a thing for sticking up for someone he perceives as the underdog, probably since he himself knows what it feels like to be in that position. And when Ronon came along, Teyla and him started having so much time together that I pretty much wrote Sheyla off to the friendship area of the show.

Relationships can be done right in sci-fi shows. The whole Tom/B'Elanna relationship on Star Trek Voyager, for instance. We saw their relationship develop over the course of seven years and never once was it in a position to really over-influence the show. And given just how screwed up Voyager became, IMHO, this is one of the good things about that show that I totally cling to in regards to it.

I'm really hoping with the rest of you that TPTB will remember relationships like Tom and B'Elanna's and follow the example. Because as much as I love S/J (always have, always will), I really don't think my nerves could handle another relationship like that. *twitches* My nerves are permanently shot from it.

AQ

Oooh, good example with the Tom/B'Elanna thing! That's a great comparison, too, because I don't think anyone could say that TPTB intended from the start for B'Elanna and Tom to get together, much like the Sheppard Weir dynamic seems to be an almost unplanned result of great chemistry. And I wholeheartedly agree that Tom/B'Elanna was done very well. Even after they courted, were married, and went through the pregnancy, their relationship was still just as much fun to watch and did not detract from the show at all.

[AngelQueen]

I figure they're mimicking one another, or one is asking the other if their clothes fit correctly.

They's such Teh Pretty!

AQ

[Bama]

You know, Southern Red, in reading your post, it really struck me all over again how different Shep/Weir is from Shep/Teyla. Resolving Shep/Weir really wouldn't change much in the dynamic of the show. They're already extremely close. They already have lots of scenes together. They already have scenes of a more personal nature.

To go with Shep/Teyla, they'd have to really change the make-up of the show. They'd have to give Sheppard and Teyla scenes together, and scenes where they actually address each other. They'd have to cut back on how obviously Sheppard and Weir rely on each other. They'd have to cut back on scenes with Teyla and Ronon. They'd have to make drastic changes. That kind of resolution would be boring, because the show would have to bend to the will of the ship.

I don't believe that's the case with Shep/Weir. They*– and their relationship – get the spotlight a lot already. Contrast that with the minute and a half that Sheppard and Teyla have spent talking to each other this season.

It is astounding and it's truly why the only thing that will work is S/W. It's the way the writers have set it up from mid season one to this day. If Shep/anyone or Weir/anyone ever became an item-then they *must* by the very nature of what a true 'relationship' between a man and woman is-give each other up in their current form. They absolutely cannot continue to be each other's most significant other and be in a true relationship with someone else. THAT PERSON *must* become their most significant other at that point and then, SGA is not SGA as we know it any longer. It is hard for me to see how people cannot plainly see this obvious fact. I mean do Sheylas really want him sleeping with Teyla and then hangin out with Elizabeth on the balconies having meaningful personal conversations? I know I certainly wouldn't want my Ship that shallow. And it's not mean or an attack to say that Shep/Teyla is shallow in comparison to Shep/Weir. It's just a fact based on the evidence from episodes.

The kirking is completely different. We know some one-shot isn't Shep's most significant other. One thing that struck me from the tower was how

Spoiler:

it almost seemed as shep was reporting to his 'wife' that he didn't 'cheat' when every opportunity was given for him to do so. Why even bring up the girl there? Absolutely *No reason* other than he wanted to see his significant other's reaction.

And she didn't disappoint in giving him one.

[AngelQueen]

Oooh, good example with the Tom/B'Elanna thing! That's a great comparison, too, because I don't think anyone could say that TPTB intended from the start for B'Elanna and Tom to get together, much like the Sheppard Weir dynamic seems to be an almost unplanned result of great chemistry. And I wholeheartedly agree that Tom/B'Elanna was done very well. Even after they courted, were married, and went through the pregnancy, their relationship was still just as much fun to watch and did not detract from the show at all.

EXACTLY! I think some of the best television series relationships are the ones that just kind of come out of nowhere! Tom and B'Elanna were one (cause personally, I think the writers might have originally been planning something along the lines of B'Elanna/Harry and Tom/Kes - there were certainly big hints of the latter at times - but it just didn't work out that way), and now we have Sparky, born of the wonderful chemistry between Torri and Joe! *huggles Torri and Joe* Such sweeties, both of them! Perhaps the writers did originally see a future for Sheyla, but now I just hope they see that its Sparky (please, for Thor's sake, let them see it!!).

AQ

[Southern Red]

I know it's been said better by others many times before me but Shep really doesn't ever act as if he's remotely interested in Teyla -the person. She's from another culture but does he immerse himself in trying to understand it? Does he seek out the small things that make her different from an Earth woman? Does he try and have smalltalk convos over coffee or in the jumper bay about what she likes to do in her spare time? No. Never. In the very few instances when opportunities have been there for Shep/Teyla bonding such as 'Home' and 'The Storm' - Shep acts more interested in just about anything else. Other than his respect for her as a fighter or a mild acknowledgement of her good looks, we see absolutely nothing to suggest that Sheppard is interested in pursuing anything deeper with Teyla. If a man is interested in a woman, he actively seeks her out for smalltalk; he finds time to have her attention to only himself. He asked leading and loaded questions to find out more about her as a person-he tries to gauge her thoughts, ideas, mores and feelings on topics of mutual interest. He wants her reactions and opinons over all others.

We get none of that between Shep and Teyla. However, we *do* get some of that with John and 'Lizabeth. In fact, we get enough of it that it catches your attention and makes you go 'whoa! - What's really going on here that isn't being admitted?' My husband made an interesting point imo during an episode recently after I commented on how much I liked how John sought out Elizabeth just to talk to her. He told me that was what told him that's who he'd end up with eventually. "He actually wants to talk to her. A man generally doesn't just want to talk and discuss things with a woman unless he's got some pretty deep feelings for her."

Now, I don't know-I'm a woman but I do know that he gives me a different set of eyes and different gender perspective to see thru.

Precisely, my husband feels the same way, and he says anything involving J/T is just a huge red herring. I sure hope he's right. He usually is. BTW in TLG

Spoiler:

he so called her 'Lizabeth. I think in the first infirmary scene. Loved his concern for her there.

Sometimes John seems almost uncomfortable around Teyla. It's usually Rodney in the jumper explaining stuff to Conan and Zena with John helping, but when was the last time John and Teyla took a little jumper trip alone? They did it a lot last season, yet even then aside from asking her in The Storm if the Athosians were getting settled in I don't recall any personal convos. Color me puzzled.

Oooh, good example with the Tom/B'Elanna thing! That's a great comparison, too, because I don't think anyone could say that TPTB intended from the start for B'Elanna and Tom to get together, much like the Sheppard Weir dynamic seems to be an almost unplanned result of great chemistry. And I wholeheartedly agree that Tom/B'Elanna was done very well. Even after they courted, were married, and went through the pregnancy, their relationship was still just as much fun to watch and did not detract from the show at all.

I loved the Tom/B'Elanna relationship. It was just so natural and perfect. Reminds me too of our earlier discussion about the statement by Rob Cooper that no matter how hard they tried, the idea of having a conflicting relationship between Shep and Weir just didn't work. To my way of thinking at some point they will have to realize the same thing about the so-called romance with John and Teyla. I know there are a lot of ship combinations out there and really sincere people want their ship to happen. But I'm a realist. I never would have become a Sparkler if I didn't think I actually saw something. I'm glad those people are having fun, but at some point TPTB need to make a choice. And, Lord help us, we'll have to accept it. Good grief. I just depressed myself. Quick a picture. One word is probably spoilerish for Coup d'Etat.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...errandcopy.jpg

[GateByte]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64/AngelQueen/JE11_edited2.jpg

I figure they're mimicking one another, or one is asking the other if their clothes fit correctly.

They's such Teh Pretty!

AQ

That's a pretty good interpretation for that pic. And just look at the smirk John has on his face when he's looking at Liz.

So to comment on all of the posts about what we'd like to see if we ever get a solid relationship happening. I agree that I definitely wouldn't want the show to be all about sparky. But the hint now and then, like a kiss from time to time, or them holding hands or something would be nice. I don't think Atlantis should become Soap Opera-like, as has already been stated, that would just be weird IMO. Some really great drama between them from time to time would be good, but it shouldn't be the corner stone of the entire show. And maybe some tension or something too, just to keep things interesting.

I think I might have just ran in circles around what I was trying to say, but I'm kinda at the point where midterm stress is making my mind mush. (believe me, it tends to happen a lot )

I know I'm kinda behind on the whole discussion, but I felt I should put forward my two cents.

Edit: Oh yeah, and to go back to the Dr. Sheppard thing from Grey's Anatomy. I watched that last night, and Atlantis totally popped into my head - you know you're addicted when... . That was a really great ep. I don't watch the show, but wow, was it good. Totally did not see the ending coming (my roommate was quite pleased that it catered to her sadistic side - she was gunning for it the entire ep). Sorry, random OT thought.

[Whistler84]

Great points, EVERYBODY.

You know, I honestly don't know how this season could not have been a bigger blow to S/T. Sheppard and Teyla rarely ever communicate with each other, and it's never even remotely personal. Season One, I couldn't say that. At least then, the PTB were attempting to build the foundation for something. You got to see them talking and having scenes together, etc . . . But this season? It's been completely polarized into S/W scenes and R/T scenes.

The fact is, most of the support for S/T is from season one, back in the day. A big portion - if not the heart and soul of their ship - is based on "The Rising" and "Suspicion." But with Sheppard's recent kirking, I'm starting to see a pattern here. His initial reaction to Teyla perfectly duplicates his reactions to Chaya, Mora (sp?), Teer, etc. . . He sees a pretty lady, and flirts. And defends her honor if anyone dares to question it (I just watched "Sanctuary" yesterday, and I had forgotten the way he fiercly defended Chaya). It parallels his initial view of Teyla perfectly: "oh, pretty lady. Must flirt. Must defend." This classifies Teyla in the same catagory as all the other women he's been kirkin' with this season, and that's not a good group to be in if your a shipper for them. All of them were made of stuff that inspired temporary infatuations. Weak, flimsy relationships based on attraction and really nothing more.

The difference is, Teyla stuck around, and John's views for her shifted - they had to, otherwise he would have dated Teyla and probably broken up with her before we even got to "The Storm." He's stopped flirting with her this season entirely, because he views her differently. He's still finds her attractive, 'cause yeah - he's got eyes!! But the flirting? Gone compleletly. The private conversations? Gone. The talks about anything other the military business? Bub-bye.

This season, how many conversations have they had? How many flirting scenes? I remember "Runner,"

Spoiler:

which had that amusing little butt-grabbing scene,

but that's it. Wow, now lets compare that to S/W. Somebody want to count up the flirting scenes between them this season? How many personal and private scenes they've had together?

[mentalmichael]

Oooh. I think I know which one you mean...is it ' the sound of colour'?

Can't remember who it's by..or where it is... but it's great!

Yes, thank you, have some green! Found it over at Wraithbait if anyone's interested: http://www.wraithbait.com/viewstory.php?sid=3548&i=1

[Melyanna]

This season, how many conversations have they had? How many flirting scenes? I remember "Runner,"

Spoiler:

which had that amusing little butt-grabbing scene,

but that's it. Wow, now lets compare that to S/W. Somebody want to count up the flirting scenes between them this season? How many personal and private scenes they've had together?

I couldn't begin to count, but several weeks ago I began a project where I was clipping up episodes to save copies of scenes that I figured would be useful for future vids. By the time I had made it through Epiphany, I think, I had about an hour and a half of footage collected. Obviously I got a few more scenes from Critical Mass, Grace Under Pressure, and The Tower, but I still haven't touched the last five episodes of the season. So out of the first season and three fourths of the second, I got the equivalent of more than two episodes' worth of Shep/Weir scenes. And that was just the stuff that works visually. There was more that I discarded because I didn't think it would work for vids.