Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[smalltowngirl]

Thanks for all the nice words on the individual-talk thingie.

Oops. Broke etiquette (vide Colonel Sheppard); didn’t mean to. Sorry.

If I may respectfully disagree with SR, just a little. ‘Tis true Hollywood writers usually end up working to a formula. After all, the formula usually works. But they also burn, yearn, hunger to be remembered as True Artists and Innovators. We see that in the poorly concealed envy directed at the Battlestar writers, and the glacially paced Universe, which was On The Edge, a Dramatic Departure, dare I say it, Innovative! Suuuuure.

The ironic part is that SG-1 and Atlantis did take some chances, did do some original stuff, Elizabeth as a true tough girl being one example. SR said they panicked as soon as they stumbled across something original. Possibly. Actually I think they didn’t recognize their own originality, which is really funny when you think about it. Or they didn’t have enough self-confidence to break away from the formula when they did get original.

Re: Legacy. Obviously that’s a subject that makes people’s ears explode. I will bring it up nevermore.

[smalltowngirl]

On the other topic, I'm not really qualified to talk about the sexiness of other females (although if we're honest, we do try to figure out what works). But maybe sexy is more than a pushup bustier, even for the stereotypical SF morose-20-year-old-living-in-the-basement fan.

SG-1 fans will remember the Tokra in the rubber capris and shrink-wrap bra at the start of the fourth season. If the stories I heard later were correct, she was supposed to be the new, sexy girl, as opposed to Sam in her green BDUs. Poor girl sank like a stone. Also there was Larrin of the leather push-up; clearly she was supposed to be the sexy, sassy sidekick. That vanished without a trace too. Which probably says something.

[Sequoia Hope]

Thanks for all the nice words on the individual-talk thingie.

Oops. Broke etiquette (vide Colonel Sheppard); didn’t mean to. Sorry.

If I may respectfully disagree with SR, just a little. ‘Tis true Hollywood writers usually end up working to a formula. After all, the formula usually works. But they also burn, yearn, hunger to be remembered as True Artists and Innovators. We see that in the poorly concealed envy directed at the Battlestar writers, and the glacially paced Universe, which was On The Edge, a Dramatic Departure, dare I say it, Innovative! Suuuuure.

The ironic part is that SG-1 and Atlantis did take some chances, did do some original stuff, Elizabeth as a true tough girl being one example. SR said they panicked as soon as they stumbled across something original. Possibly. Actually I think they didn’t recognize their own originality, which is really funny when you think about it. Or they didn’t have enough self-confidence to break away from the formula when they did get original.

Re: Legacy. Obviously that’s a subject that makes people’s ears explode. I will bring it up nevermore.

You and SR might be onto something. If they wanted to work to a formula, they might have been alarmed that they unintentionally created something else. It's like they were working with a set of tools and accidentally exchanged them, and then they tried to make their new toolbox suit their original needs. It would explain why they wanted Sheyla to work out and couldn't see that Sparky would be equally as compelling, if not more so, because they are two completely different ships. Sheyla is the tried-and-true ship, and Sparky is the accidentally-stumbled-across ship. They couldn't write for internally complex characters like John and Elizabeth, but they could conjure endless plotlines for externally likable characters like Rodney. Because television is a business, it's plausible that they wanted to stick to the tried-and-true version of everything, from characters to plots, and not take risks.

It's truly a shame, because they did have a gold mine sitting before their eyes, and despite what they might have thought, there were people who would have welcomed something different. I don't watch a lot of TV, but I know that people often complain, especially in the sci-fi genre, how plotlines have become hackneyed and there's nothing new worth watching. (That begs the question of whether sci-fi writers and producers are afraid to take risks.) Atlantis could have been different. It had incredible characters and an interesting premise, but it was bogged down by writers and producers who didn't know how to make them work. As a result, it became neither a show that employed classic sci-fi plotlines nor a show that stood out on its own. It drifted somewhere in between and appeared to be mediocre at best.

Do people still talk about Atlantis? I've kind of gotten the impression that people still rave SG-1 because it was the first, original show and ran for ten years, and people still discuss SGU because it was the most recent show. But I don't hear much praise about Atlantis. It feels like despite its five years on air, it's been dismissed as the middle child - ignored even though it had so much value and potential.

I enjoyed reading the analysis on female stereotypes in the sci-fi genre and how Elizabeth defies all of them. Those were some killer posts. And as for talking about the sexiness of female characters... well, I'm not qualified to discuss this topic, so I'm just going to abstain from commenting.

[Southern Red]

Thanks for all the nice words on the individual-talk thingie.

Oops. Broke etiquette (vide Colonel Sheppard); didn’t mean to. Sorry.

If I may respectfully disagree with SR, just a little. ‘Tis true Hollywood writers usually end up working to a formula. After all, the formula usually works. But they also burn, yearn, hunger to be remembered as True Artists and Innovators. We see that in the poorly concealed envy directed at the Battlestar writers, and the glacially paced Universe, which was On The Edge, a Dramatic Departure, dare I say it, Innovative! Suuuuure.

You can disagree with me anytime, but the part about them following a formula wasn't an opinion but a fact. Just recently there was this article in The Washington Post that says there is an actual book they follow, and how hardly anyone goes outside the formula. Now granted, there is room for things like who gets the girl and wiggle room on different character traits, but not much. Also, actors get stereotyped for a reason. Guys like Joe are always the romantic hero, and guys like Jason are never the genius nerd. That's a formula too.

The ironic part is that SG-1 and Atlantis did take some chances, did do some original stuff, Elizabeth as a true tough girl being one example. SR said they panicked as soon as they stumbled across something original. Possibly. Actually I think they didn’t recognize their own originality, which is really funny when you think about it. Or they didn’t have enough self-confidence to break away from the formula when they did get original.

Re: Legacy. Obviously that’s a subject that makes people’s ears explode. I will bring it up nevermore.

That part in bold is very true, but remember it's all about money. The guys at Bridge Studios were not in control of their own destiny but had to answer to the network, which in turn answered to MGM. It all came down to some guy in a suit in a corner office in LA. That is where the truly stupid decisions are made with no regards to what the actual fans want.

On the other topic, I'm not really qualified to talk about the sexiness of other females (although if we're honest, we do try to figure out what works). But maybe sexy is more than a pushup bustier, even for the stereotypical SF morose-20-year-old-living-in-the-basement fan.

SG-1 fans will remember the Tokra in the rubber capris and shrink-wrap bra at the start of the fourth season. If the stories I heard later were correct, she was supposed to be the new, sexy girl, as opposed to Sam in her green BDUs. Poor girl sank like a stone. Also there was Larrin of the leather push-up; clearly she was supposed to be the sexy, sassy sidekick. That vanished without a trace too. Which probably says something.

Larrin vanished because Jill Wagner was unavailable. They all wanted more of her. Another important but often overlooked fact is what is happening behind the scenes, like Rachel's pregnancy completely changing the outcome of the rest of the series. Right now on NCIS, there is a situation that has fans all atwitter that will probably change a lot. It happens more than we know that real life determines the plot of fictional life.

Sparks of Atlantis made some good points. They all want that breakthrough moment when a new kind of movie or show comes along and knocks everybody's socks off, but they are afraid to take a chance. I always use Breaking Bad as an example. That multiple emmy winning show was turned down by HBO, Showtime and a bunch of networks before AMC took a chance. The guys in the suits are insulated from the real people like us to the point that they have no idea what we actually want, and they are the most confused people on the planet when their latest "genius" show fails. Soon the plans for the fall shows will come out. How many of us can read the summaries and predict which ones will bomb? I'd say most of us. But watch for the formula.

[Scary Kitty]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Sparky!Family Saturday!

You and SR might be onto something. If they wanted to work to a formula, they might have been alarmed that they unintentionally created something else. It's like they were working with a set of tools and accidentally exchanged them, and then they tried to make their new toolbox suit their original needs. It would explain why they wanted Sheyla to work out and couldn't see that Sparky would be equally as compelling, if not more so, because they are two completely different ships. Sheyla is the tried-and-true ship, and Sparky is the accidentally-stumbled-across ship. They couldn't write for internally complex characters like John and Elizabeth, but they could conjure endless plotlines for externally likable characters like Rodney. Because television is a business, it's plausible that they wanted to stick to the tried-and-true version of everything, from characters to plots, and not take risks.

Given the cast rearrangements at the end of Season 3 and beginning of Season 4, I'd say that the "exchange of tools" was deliberate, in reaction to their unintentional creation of something non-formulaic. It was obvious to many of us even at the time that they were trying to clear the decks, as it were.

Do people still talk about Atlantis? I've kind of gotten the impression that people still rave SG-1 because it was the first, original show and ran for ten years, and people still discuss SGU because it was the most recent show. But I don't hear much praise about Atlantis. It feels like despite its five years on air, it's been dismissed as the middle child - ignored even though it had so much value and potential.

Oh, absolutely! I've often likened Atlantis to the proverbial redheaded stepchild; the so-called "freak" of the family.

Sparks of Atlantis made some good points. They all want that breakthrough moment when a new kind of movie or show comes along and knocks everybody's socks off, but they are afraid to take a chance. I always use Breaking Bad as an example. That multiple emmy winning show was turned down by HBO, Showtime and a bunch of networks before AMC took a chance. The guys in the suits are insulated from the real people like us to the point that they have no idea what we actually want, and they are the most confused people on the planet when their latest "genius" show fails. Soon the plans for the fall shows will come out. How many of us can read the summaries and predict which ones will bomb? I'd say most of us. But watch for the formula.

Heck, look at Pacific Rim. On the surface, it looks like a "big robots fighting big monsters" kind of movie in the vein of Transformers or even Power Rangers with definite salutes to Godzilla-type movies. But underneath, there's a strong female lead who is NOT a love interest; the argument can definitely be made that it's really Mako who undergoes the "hero's journey" and is the real main character, not Raleigh. It's not an "America will save the world" kind of story, it's a much more global effort, with characters coming from all sorts of ethnic backgrounds. The movie takes a lot of the usual tropes and turns them on their heads. The result? Audiences either love it or hate it; it's not been such a big hit here among general audiences in the US, but the international market is apparently going nuts for it and a sequel is reportedly now in the works. So there's definitely some who try to buck the formula, but they're few and far between.

[Luz]

Link to a tumblr account with a couple of pertinent quotes from Torri and Joe:
http://wingsofnight.tumblr.com/post/...-first-when-we

I can't help but suspect that one of the reasons the intended ship failed so miserably on-screen [besides Torri and Joe's natural and easy chemistry] was that Joe was a closet sparky shipper. Seriously, that "sparks flew" thing, lol, Joe's too adorable for words.

[Annelantis]

Link to a tumblr account with a couple of pertinent quotes from Torri and Joe:
http://wingsofnight.tumblr.com/post/...-first-when-we

Very interesting. I've never read seen that quote before. It makes a lot of sense though, because it is obvious when you watch that the chemistry is not forced, it just is. I could imagine that John and Elizabeth would have made a pretty intense couple if they had got together. They were such strong opinionated people, just like Joe and Torri, it seems. Some couples and friends thrive on disagreements and challenging each other. They're the interesting couples. And it would have made for a far more interesting show. Personally, I never understood the whole thing where men in charge could have relationships but for women it would split their focus. Baah!

[Annelantis]

Do people still talk about Atlantis? I've kind of gotten the impression that people still rave SG-1 because it was the first, original show and ran for ten years, and people still discuss SGU because it was the most recent show. But I don't hear much praise about Atlantis. It feels like despite its five years on air, it's been dismissed as the middle child - ignored even though it had so much value and potential.

You know, I wondered that too Sparks. I have felt that SGA was given short shrift and it was pretty much like the ignored middle child. Everyone seemed to talk about SG-1 and Universe wherever I went and I thought it was treated quite badly. It baffled me because I always thought the first three seasons of Atlantis were the best seasons of the franchise with the best cast.

But when I went to Chevron 8.0 in May/June it became pretty clear that the majority of people there were SGA lovers more than either of the others. It was petty damn cool, actually! I wonder if it is because of the unfulfilled potential that people still talk about it, write about i, make art about it.

[Sparky She-Demon]

Especially write about it!

[Southern Red]

You know, I wondered that too Sparks. I have felt that SGA was given short shrift and it was pretty much like the ignored middle child. Everyone seemed to talk about SG-1 and Universe wherever I went and I thought it was treated quite badly. It baffled me because I always thought the first three seasons of Atlantis were the best seasons of the franchise with the best cast.

But when I went to Chevron 8.0 in May/June it became pretty clear that the majority of people there were SGA lovers more than either of the others. It was petty damn cool, actually! I wonder if it is because of the unfulfilled potential that people still talk about it, write about i, make art about it.

I don't know what's going on now, but in 2010 at the ChiCon the focus was heavily on SGA with a little SG-1 thrown in. The SGU actors were there on Sunday, and a lot of us who had been in attendance on Fri/Sat didn't even go. Mr. SR and I toured Chicago. LOL There was a lot, and I mean a LOT, of negativity toward SGU. I'm wondering if that sort of thing is why few of them appear at cons.

But all 3 shows have been off the air so long, you can't expect the average person to still be interested. Most probably barely remember them, but since SG-1 was on the air so long, it will be remembered the longest.

[Scary Kitty]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Lazy Sunday and... S-minus 6 hours to The Last Man post-a-thon!

You know, I wondered that too Sparks. I have felt that SGA was given short shrift and it was pretty much like the ignored middle child. Everyone seemed to talk about SG-1 and Universe wherever I went and I thought it was treated quite badly. It baffled me because I always thought the first three seasons of Atlantis were the best seasons of the franchise with the best cast.

But when I went to Chevron 8.0 in May/June it became pretty clear that the majority of people there were SGA lovers more than either of the others. It was petty damn cool, actually! I wonder if it is because of the unfulfilled potential that people still talk about it, write about i, make art about it.

*nods* That's certainly what I observed at the Creation Stargate cons I've attended. The love for SGA was very high and all the SGA guest panels/photo ops were well attended.

I don't know what's going on now, but in 2010 at the ChiCon the focus was heavily on SGA with a little SG-1 thrown in. The SGU actors were there on Sunday, and a lot of us who had been in attendance on Fri/Sat didn't even go. Mr. SR and I toured Chicago. LOL There was a lot, and I mean a LOT, of negativity toward SGU. I'm wondering if that sort of thing is why few of them appear at cons.

But all 3 shows have been off the air so long, you can't expect the average person to still be interested. Most probably barely remember them, but since SG-1 was on the air so long, it will be remembered the longest.

Yeah, I agree that SG-1 is the one that the average Joe on the street remembers. After all, it's got MacGyver!

[Brie]

Hello everyone!

I’m looking forward to tonight post-a-thon and especially when I realized that next week’s one might be my last (sucks that it have to be ‘Search and Rescue’ but oh well) since I’m moving to London for a few month in two weeks and I don’t know if I will have the chance to be a part of the post-a-thon once I’m there.

I don't know what's going on now, but in 2010 at the ChiCon the focus was heavily on SGA with a little SG-1 thrown in. The SGU actors were there on Sunday, and a lot of us who had been in attendance on Fri/Sat didn't even go. Mr. SR and I toured Chicago. LOL There was a lot, and I mean a LOT, of negativity toward SGU. I'm wondering if that sort of thing is why few of them appear at cons.

But all 3 shows have been off the air so long, you can't expect the average person to still be interested. Most probably barely remember them, but since SG-1 was on the air so long, it will be remembered the longest.

I have never been to an American convention so I don’t have any first hand knowledge about how SGU or the other SG shows are viewed but I’m not surprised by this at all.

[Southern Red]

I'll be here today for the postathon. Can't wait for all that John goodness.

[Luz]

You know, I wondered that too Sparks. I have felt that SGA was given short shrift and it was pretty much like the ignored middle child. Everyone seemed to talk about SG-1 and Universe wherever I went and I thought it was treated quite badly. It baffled me because I always thought the first three seasons of Atlantis were the best seasons of the franchise with the best cast.

But when I went to Chevron 8.0 in May/June it became pretty clear that the majority of people there were SGA lovers more than either of the others. It was petty damn cool, actually! I wonder if it is because of the unfulfilled potential that people still talk about it, write about i, make art about it.

I've never been to a con, so my experience is strictly limited to internet contact with other fans. In general there is this notion from mainly SG1 fans of SG1 as the superior show. Which is to be expected, with it being their favorite. Personally I don't agree, at all. And when people try to use the ten years it lasted as proof of its superiority, I check out.

Because it's no secret in tptb's minds SGA always lived in SG1's shadow and was never given a fair chance. First it was used as a vehicle to give SG1 more screen time and later it was sacrificed to guarantee that SGU would have at least two seasons. So, people don't get to use SG1 longevity as a point against SGA, simply because had SGA actually been nurtured and cared about the way tptb protected and SG1, and had tptb not damaged SGA the way they did to keep SG1 alive, then we could have probably had a chancer to see SGA reach its true potential.

But the show could never deliver on its promise because there was always some project tptb were more interested in. First SG1 and then SGU. The irony with SGU is that fans of the franchise's hatred for it is almost on par with tptb's love for it, lol.

[Scary Kitty]

S-minus 1 hour to The Last Man!