Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[mandogater]

smalltowngirl,

I totally agree with everything you said. Green for you.

I have been a shipper pretty much since the day I was born, though I only found out in the last year that there was a name for this compulsion I have. I have always been one as well who looked beyond the obvious and have been known for picking out couples in pilots, years before it was decided that they would get together.

John and Elizabeth was not the most obvious couple, it took me a few episodes to really see what was there but I knew straightaway that I didn't want John with Teyla. It was just boring and cliche.

I would, however, say that as a watcher of Stargate since the very beginning I am completely if the opinion that there is no stronger and more compelling female character in the franchise than Elizabeth Weir. She was incredibly intelligent, stood up for what she believed was right, was not intimidated by powerful figures, including the military, had common sense as well as heart and she was a civilian - she was one of us.

Her strength did not come from her ability to kick a*** or from technobabbly science that eventually saved the day. Her strength was her ability to use her words, to talk to people, to understand and to solve problems with discussion and negotiation. It was not something they utilised enough in the show, given that TPTW seemed far more interested in resolutions that involved blowing things up, shooting up the place or incomprehensible science (my personal bugbear of season 5 was the weapon that destroyed Wraith ships by messing with the frequency of their hyperdrives but did not bother to give any kind of explanation as to how this process also blew up stargates!)

She was an incredible character and could have been even more but TPTW created her and then didn't know what to do with her, in the end turning her into a glorified office manager. TH played her brilliantly as well. She was never over the top and her chemistry with not just JF but many of the cast was fascinating. I think it's a real shame that she has not been recognised for the work she did there and given something in the last few years that she can really get her teeth into - my personal opinion is that she would have played an incredible member of the team in Criminal Minds.

Look at me, this may have gone on longer than I meant it to. However, I'm not saying anything that I don't think is true. I just get a bit ranty when I get into this territory, particularly the treatment of women in Stargate land.

I totally agree with everything you said, Annelantis. Especially the bolded part. TH did an unbelieveably great with what little she was given. I really hope she will soon be cast in a role she can really sink her teeth into.

As a side note, I think one of the Daniel and McKay long winded rants explained why Janus' superweapon caused Staragtes to blow up too. However, it's been a long time since I watched that two-parted and could be way off base.

[Lythisrose]

Jewel definitely brought the male fantasy sex appeal to the show. Because she's the beautiful sexy girl that will actually give the time of day to the geek (McKay in SGA). Also see Simon Tam (medical geek?) in Firefly.

Jewel herself tweeted this the other day:
Jewel Staite ?@JewelStaite 31 Jul
Look mom and dad! I made it! I'm on a list about gentleman boners on the Internet! http://www.reddit.com/r/Gentlemanboners …

Everybody says how nice she is at cons so she's very accessible to the fans as well.

[mandogater]

I don't think the main 'sexy' characters were so much the problem as that a lot of the overt sexiness became a punchline when they really didn't need it to be. Like, how Amanda Tapping's endowments were often brought up as a punchline for the male characters (Oh Zelenka, the Transporter in Quarantine *headDESK*) or how John was constantly courted by the overtly sexy (Chaya, Larrin, princess in The Tower, etc).

What was funny about Stargate is how they created a host of groundbreaking characters but, at least from what I glean from outside interviews, they really didn't intend it. They seemed to think John being 'mensa' was a punchline for a good joke, when he could have been seen doing some of the mathematician's work. Or Elizabeth's female leader, or even Rodney, who did evolve from the jerkish persona he held on SG-1 could have been unique spins on the story, but I get the sense that a lot of that came by accident, not on purpose.

As one of the few guys here, I feel the need to put my two cents worth in. When it comes to the "sexy" female characters on shows that the guys are supposed to drool over 99.99% of the time I find them annoying. I never cared and barely noticed AT is well endowed unless the camera angle made it hard not to notice. I also felt Sam was like Myka on Warehouse 13, a really smart, approachable woman that is really pretty. Throwing her looks in my face was an insult to AT, the character and my intelligence.

Same goes for Teyla. Yes, she's easy on the eyes but give her something of substance to do and maybe, just maybe I'll like her character.

As for the overtly sexy charatcers, Chaya was always nothing more than a plot device for me. Larrin, I've always called a crazy space dominatrix. The princess in The Tower seemed to be less the damsel in distress and more the damsel that undresses when the hero smiles at her. *reaches for air sick bag*

John being Mensa really intrigued me. Until it was forgotten and then became a punch line.

Elizabeth slowly grew on me especially after TH got the role on Atlantis. She was smart and tough without ever having to throw a punch. She was also pretty without having to through it in my face, which to me has always been appealing.

The evolution of McKay as a character might very well be one of the greatest accidents in the history of television, IMHO.

[Sparky She-Demon]

Glad that one of the guys came in and explained their point of view!

[mandogater]

Glad that one of the guys came in and explained their point of view!

Thanks, Sparky.

Not all that sure how typically my view is among guys though.

[Sparky She-Demon]

Thanks, Sparky.

Not all that sure how typically my view is among guys though.

I meant their own viewpoint, not just a generalization.

[Southern Red]

Thanks, Sparky.

Not all that sure how typically my view is among guys though.

I know Mr. SR shares your view. He liked Sam, but it had nothing to do with her looks, and he thought Elizabeth was beautiful and someone that would be interesting to talk to. I'm the shallow one in the family, but there was a lot more to John than just a pretty face also.

On another subject, I just finished Exogenesis and liked it very much. Lots of action with perfect characterizations. No overt ship of any kind, but if you squint you can find just about any ship you can imagine. And

Spoiler:

there is a Sparky scene near the end that perfectly fit their relationship on the show.

Why, oh why, didn't these women get picked to write the S6 tie-in books?

[Eri13]

As one of the few guys here, I feel the need to put my two cents worth in. When it comes to the "sexy" female characters on shows that the guys are supposed to drool over 99.99% of the time I find them annoying. I never cared and barely noticed AT is well endowed unless the camera angle made it hard not to notice. I also felt Sam was like Myka on Warehouse 13, a really smart, approachable woman that is really pretty. Throwing her looks in my face was an insult to AT, the character and my intelligence.

Same goes for Teyla. Yes, she's easy on the eyes but give her something of substance to do and maybe, just maybe I'll like her character.

As for the overtly sexy charatcers, Chaya was always nothing more than a plot device for me. Larrin, I've always called a crazy space dominatrix. The princess in The Tower seemed to be less the damsel in distress and more the damsel that undresses when the hero smiles at her. *reaches for air sick bag*

John being Mensa really intrigued me. Until it was forgotten and then became a punch line.

Elizabeth slowly grew on me especially after TH got the role on Atlantis. She was smart and tough without ever having to throw a punch. She was also pretty without having to through it in my face, which to me has always been appealing.

The evolution of McKay as a character might very well be one of the greatest accidents in the history of television, IMHO.

Most of my guy friends who enjoy scifi, comic books, etc, are very much the same. They want good character development and storylines in stuff. The bombshell nature of the women in those mediums tends to be more of a perk than the point of reading them. Maybe it's my corner of the world, but I think VFX and sexiness are way overhyped--what marketing people think the world cares about but in truth, it's not really.

Jewel definitely brought the male fantasy sex appeal to the show. Because she's the beautiful sexy girl that will actually give the time of day to the geek (McKay in SGA). Also see Simon Tam (medical geek?) in Firefly.

Jewel herself tweeted this the other day:
Jewel Staite ?@JewelStaite 31 Jul
Look mom and dad! I made it! I'm on a list about gentleman boners on the Internet! http://www.reddit.com/r/Gentlemanboners …

Everybody says how nice she is at cons so she's very accessible to the fans as well.

Simon...medical, definitely, and tried to be geeky but it was a tough road to hoe cuz Sean Maher is SO PURTY. I am totally not being a stereotypical female.

Though in truth, Simon did manage to be the gorgeous geek quite well. Sometimes when the geek trope is played out it's completely unbelievable (like those characters that are basically Superman with glasses, where I find myself going 'you did not grow up a nerd!'). But Simon really did feel awkward and socially inept sometimes, despite his good looks.

[Eri13]

I know Mr. SR shares your view. He liked Sam, but it had nothing to do with her looks, and he thought Elizabeth was beautiful and someone that would be interesting to talk to. I'm the shallow one in the family, but there was a lot more to John than just a pretty face also.

On another subject, I just finished Exogenesis and liked it very much. Lots of action with perfect characterizations. No overt ship of any kind, but if you squint you can find just about any ship you can imagine. And

Spoiler:

there is a Sparky scene near the end that perfectly fit their relationship on the show.

Why, oh why, didn't these women get picked to write the S6 tie-in books?

It really was, wasn't it?

Spoiler:

My favorite shippy part is the moment when John gets back from the unsanctioned mission to Polrusso, after Ea's son heals him, and he sees Elizabeth and he can tell she's royally POed for his breaking of the rules. But she asks him if he's okay while they're walking downstairs, and when she does that, the city tilts and she falls into him. He helps steady her, for which she throws him an odd look and then asks if he's truly alright.

I thought it wasn't overtly shippy, but just enough flexibility to let shippers speculate what that odd look was all about if they wanted.

I also love that Elizabeth and John are on the same page about the Deus ex Daedalus moment at the end, even though they never speak about it.

[mandogater]

I meant their own viewpoint, not just a generalization.

Okay.

I know Mr. SR shares your view. He liked Sam, but it had nothing to do with her looks, and he thought Elizabeth was beautiful and someone that would be interesting to talk to. I'm the shallow one in the family, but there was a lot more to John than just a pretty face also.

I think the bolded part is exactly why Elizabeth reminded me so much of someone I had a huge crush on in college.

Most of my guy friends who enjoy scifi, comic books, etc, are very much the same. They want good character development and storylines in stuff. The bombshell nature of the women in those mediums tends to be more of a perk than the point of reading them. Maybe it's my corner of the world, but I think VFX and sexiness are way overhyped--what marketing people think the world cares about but in truth, it's not really.

Glad to know Mr. SR and I aren't alone.

What do you know, multi-quote finally worked for me. *Does happy dance.* Hopefully I'll remember what I did different this time.

[Annelantis]

Hey,

Well, this has gotten interesting, hasn't it? As a woman, I suppose it's very strange for me to comment on sexy women. IMHO Stargate's sexiest female is Elizabeth. But as I say I am a woman so not the most reliable opinion.

So I asked the husband. He is as a big a sci-fi nut as me and I introduced him to Stargate about 12 years ago. He says that the most obviously sexy woman is Teyla, but he still finds Elizabeth sexier (yay, I now know why I married him!)

Anyway, I know again that I am not the foremost opinion on sexy women but I do think that in terms of the demographic I think that Sam was sexy - she was an attractive female who could fight and use guns and was smart as well - now that sounds like a fantasy if there ever was one.

As for Keller, Firefly totally made her sexy. Again, I say this as someone who adores Firefly, Serenity and almost anything Joss Whedon has ever done.

It is such a shame the way the show went. I think that it is true that what happened was more to do with chemistry and accidents. This sort of thing never happened on Star Trek!

Eri, your analysis of women in sci-fi is interesting and I agree with your categories, though there are I feel women who cross the boundaries of those categories.
It's just sad that when someone came up with a character that transcends these categories, the male writers freak out and then not use them properly.

In the terms of women getting screwed on Stargate, I tend to think of three in particular. Elizabeth was not the first, nor the last - look at Frasier and Heightmeyer. There was no good reason to kill any of them off and yet they did.

You know, it's been a long time since I used my sociology degree but it's fun when I do! I wish I could have been watching this when I was at University, it would have made for pretty interesting coursework - I think, anyway.

Is it weird for a married woman to be discussing the sexiness of other women?

[Sparky She-Demon]

No it's not weird. It just shows that you understand how a woman can drive men nuts.

[Annelantis]

No it's not weird. It just shows that you understand how a woman can drive men nuts.

If only!!

BTW: John's MENSA intelligence was something that was mentioned in an earlier...

Okay, there was a crisis. I'm back now. Crisis over.

I thought it was brilliant that John Sheppard was a military flyboy but had an intelligence to rival the "smart guys". He was obviously smart with numbers but it was also the way he saw things and argued and came up with plans that were "out of the box" so to speak.It really set him apart from SG-1's military lead, Jack. But as time went on they just dumbed him down, culminating in that "wonderful" moment in season 5 when Rodney and Daniel laugh about how he could have been MENSA. That just really annoyed me.

Another thing annoyed me in terms of how they built the characters. Any of us who saw him in SG-1 thought Rodney was a bit of a ...for want of a better word...git (except my husband who thought he was brilliant). They turned him around in Atlantis, not too quickly and not too much so it seemed like a deliberate growth of his character. The Elizabeth was lost in season 4. And instead of being upset about losing his boss and his friend, he was excited about getting her job! That was just plain wrong.

You know, it amazes me sometimes that these people managed to come up with what they came up with in the first few years because it seems that it was all just fluke. Like the first mentions of the Ancients in the first years and then how that progressed to finding out who they were and then onto Atlantis. It seemed natural, you know. Like in Babylon 5, the lead up of three years to the Shadows and Vorlons.

I just don't understand any of it. My husband keeps saying to me that I try and read too much into what they thought they were creating because I see all the angles, whilst, in the end, it was just a show that focused on the military and fought against bad guys. My disappointment, I suppose, comes from the fact that they nearly made into so much more.

And with that, I am off to bed.

[Southern Red]

It really was, wasn't it?

Spoiler:

My favorite shippy part is the moment when John gets back from the unsanctioned mission to Polrusso, after Ea's son heals him, and he sees Elizabeth and he can tell she's royally POed for his breaking of the rules. But she asks him if he's okay while they're walking downstairs, and when she does that, the city tilts and she falls into him. He helps steady her, for which she throws him an odd look and then asks if he's truly alright.

I thought it wasn't overtly shippy, but just enough flexibility to let shippers speculate what that odd look was all about if they wanted.

I also love that Elizabeth and John are on the same page about the Deus ex Daedalus moment at the end, even though they never speak about it.

I liked those parts too. In fact,

Spoiler:

I noticed lots of eyesex moments in the book. That tells me that the writers followed canon very closely. They seemed to read each other's mind a lot and he was very concerned about their disagreement, as was she. All this followed canon as well as how they related to each of the other characters also. I loved the Rodney/Radek banter too.

[Lythisrose]

Link to a tumblr account with a couple of pertinent quotes from Torri and Joe:
http://wingsofnight.tumblr.com/post/...-first-when-we