Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Samantha-Carter-is-my-muse]

I just want to thank you all for the past two pages of very interesting John/Elizabeth/Teyla discussion. So far I haven't seen any scenes between John and Teyla that could be considered even remotely shippy, it sure would have come as a big surprise to me, if something suddenly happened between them - it would have been out of the blue.

Gero even said he thought about his mother with that scene and wondered if she would think it was too violent. And yet, he went ahead with it the way it was done. Wow. And then there was a lot of male snickering from all of them.

I haven't seen the episode yet, but this male snickering makes me want to throw up

[Luz]

But weren't John and Elizabeth under the influence of Thalen and Phebus when they kised?

I don't really like bringing up the kiss as a particularly shippy scene because a) They were both possessed and b) Thalan and Phoebus hated each other's guts and were out for blood, so the kiss was more like an act of aggression. What I do love is that John agreed to allow himself to be possessed, after 'Elizabeth' asked nicely. And he agreed to lend his body so that Phoebus and Thalan could have sex.

[Scary Kitty]

I don't really like bringing up the kiss as a particularly shippy scene because a) They were both possessed and b) Thalan and Phoebus hated each other's guts and were out for blood, so the kiss was more like an act of aggression. What I do love is that John agreed to allow himself to be possessed, after 'Elizabeth' asked nicely. And he agreed to lend his body so that Phoebus and Thalan could have sex.

Yep, that's really the key thing to take away from The Long Goodbye. Not the "aliens made them do it" kiss, but that John agreed to let himself be taken over by Thalan because he believed Elizabeth wanted him to. He did it for her.

[JT-2]

What the heck... my multi-quote function just added some posts I responded to a week ago. Weird.

In a way, they sort of self-sabotaged. Consider Carl Binder. Someone did not feed him the official SGA Kool-Aid, or something, because while most of the writers threw in moments we consider 'Sparky', he sort of went above and beyond. See Lifeline; Ghost in the Machine.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. Carl Binder, as having been a writer on Doctor Quinn, is the only one of them to write on a show with true ship on it before. He knew what he was doing. But the poor guy never had any of the ships he tried to set up become canon (Sparky, Spanky, then Keller/Ronon).

I am not surprised. This is the same guy who threw in the catfight in "The Eye" for what purpose again?

And the one who introduced the idea of Sheppard being Mensa only to mock that very idea 4 seasons later. I would not watch anything he was involved with. Him and Mallozzi. But I'd say I bet it was a group decision to add that catfight.

That's disturbing on so many levels.

Regarding the awful conversations on the commentary in Conversion - I have to tell myself that they weren't watching very closely and that's why they didn't see it for how it really came across. I need to tell myself that so that I don't get irritated.

I've heard things about Mullie, but now I'm wondering if maybe he was being confused with Martin Gero. I'm just glad there was a voice of logic on that group. What I hear about them wanting to push sheyla in season 5 is so strange to me because at least in the episodes I've watched I can't see anything that could possibly be construed as being shippy in the slightest. But then, as I said before, the last time I saw any sign of them trying to push that ship hard was in season 1. After that they seemed to have given up. It was only later that I found out about their plans, and I couldn't have been more confused because none of what they purportedly wanted to do was actually projected on screen.

There was the dream sequence in Search and Rescue. Other than that, nothing that I noticed.

I don't really like bringing up the kiss as a particularly shippy scene because a) They were both possessed and b) Thalan and Phoebus hated each other's guts and were out for blood, so the kiss was more like an act of aggression. What I do love is that John agreed to allow himself to be possessed, after 'Elizabeth' asked nicely. And he agreed to lend his body so that Phoebus and Thalan could have sex.

The setup for both kisses was also made different by music choices. There's ominous music playing during the Conversion kiss while there's lighthearted music for TLG.

[JT-2]

*Sigh* There's a lot of episodes to go before Vegas. *Sigh*

[Sparky She-Demon]

I don't really like bringing up the kiss as a particularly shippy scene because a) They were both possessed and b) Thalan and Phoebus hated each other's guts and were out for blood, so the kiss was more like an act of aggression. What I do love is that John agreed to allow himself to be possessed, after 'Elizabeth' asked nicely. And he agreed to lend his body so that Phoebus and Thalan could have sex.

I love that too. I also remember a very wild fic where that was just what Phebus and Thalen wanted. One last time together. Will have to go and find it.

[itsaparadox]

What the heck... my multi-quote function just added some posts I responded to a week ago. Weird.



I've said this before and I'll say it again. Carl Binder, as having been a writer on Doctor Quinn, is the only one of them to write on a show with true ship on it before. He knew what he was doing. But the poor guy never had any of the ships he tried to set up become canon (Sparky, Spanky, then Keller/Ronon).




And the one who introduced the idea of Sheppard being Mensa only to mock that very idea 4 seasons later. I would not watch anything he was involved with. Him and Mallozzi. But I'd say I bet it was a group decision to add that catfight.




There was the dream sequence in Search and Rescue. Other than that, nothing that I noticed.




The setup for both kisses was also made different by music choices. There's ominous music playing during the Conversion kiss while there's lighthearted music for TLG.

I agree. Carl Binder was my favorite writer for SGA and he did a pretty good job when it came to writing for Elizabeth's character. And I just learned something new today. I had no idea Binder was one of the writers for Dr. Quinn.

I thing I remember watching an interview or something where JM mentioned a deleted scene in Season 4 where Sheppard was suppose to mention him almost being Mensa. Let's just say I'm glad it was deleted.

I started watching Season 5 about a week ago and all I can say about that dream sequence is that I was very confused while watching it. If it was meant to be an anvil then it just came out of nowhere and hit me square on the head.

And I agree with this 100%. The music can really make an impact on a scene. *Goes to watch the hug scene from The Siege part III*

[Sparky She-Demon]

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3785030/1/Saying-Goodbye

Here's the story where Phebus and Thalen were actually being honest. Small warning, this was found and posted on a "Smutty Tuesday" for a reason.

[mandogater]

I watch The Mentalist also, and yes, the woobie face is universal when you've lost a loved one. He doesn't remind me of John in any other way though because I think Jane is a bit wacko, but anyway. And I'm praying they don't hook him up with Lisbon. If you want to be reminded of John, watch Hell on Wheels from the beginning.

Pretty much everyone agrees that John lost his devil-may-care spirit when he lost her, even if they don't ship them. In fact I know that at least one other shipper group blame the writers for focusing on that loss and neglecting to show the wuv twoo wuv between John and someone else who shall remain nameless who is not Teyla.

I honestly don't think these writers have a clue what they did. Maybe they don't know all the romance tropes. Maybe they never in their lives watched a show with a will-they/won't-they arc. Maybe they don't read books or watch movies with any romantic angles. All that would have to be true for them not to have seen the symbolism in, for example, him carrying her in his arms to the infirmary or the dozens of other little things that showed their connection. But aside from all that, we've got the total lack of a similar connection with any other character.

Well okay you might say, he kissed Teyla. But consider the circumstances. That would have been like Dracula biting the neck of some random female who wandered up...outside influences. And she was obviously offended and relieved not to talk about it. Now, I'm no expert, but that signals the end of it to me. Saving her life numerous times, which the writers themselves held up as an example of him caring for her? WTF? He saved Jennifer's life and almost died, plus almost every other principal character at least once. They were just clueless about their own writing. We used to speculate that there was an editor who was secretly Sparky and was editing the show to play up that angle.

I totally agree with the bolded part.

Sometimes I get the feeling the writers, editors and TPTW never talked on Atlantis. How in the name of all that is Holy can they claim one thing and nearly every single episode show something completely different?

[mandogater]

I haven't seen the episode yet, but this male snickering makes me want to throw up

Same here and I'm a guy.

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

I totally agree with the bolded part.

Sometimes I get the feeling the writers, editors and TPTW never talked on Atlantis. How in the name of all that is Holy can they claim one thing and nearly every single episode show something completely different?

as Jack O'Neill once put it "A case of the left hand not knowing what the right foot is doing?"

[mandogater]

as Jack O'Neill once put it "A case of the left hand not knowing what the right foot is doing?"

An intergalatic understatement if there ever was one.

[Southern Red]

Yep, that's really the key thing to take away from The Long Goodbye. Not the "aliens made them do it" kiss, but that John agreed to let himself be taken over by Thalan because he believed Elizabeth wanted him to. He did it for her.

And he knew exactly what might happen. They even talked about it a bit. Why John and why Elizabeth if it wasn't intended to be shippy?

[Luz]

I agree. Carl Binder was my favorite writer for SGA and he did a pretty good job when it came to writing for Elizabeth's character. And I just learned something new today. I had no idea Binder was one of the writers for Dr. Quinn.

I try to ignore off-screen drama when I'm watching the show and this is why. I remember a while ago someone talking to me about how Carl Binder was the absolute worst, and I was just sitting there going "but he wrote Before I Sleep". And this person was telling me all about how CB shipped sheyla and hated sparky and it just didn't compute because I can't remember him being particularly ship inclined. And what's more, he wrote or had writing credits on Phantoms, an episode that had some not so shippy allusions for sheyla.

And he wrote Lifeline, which ironically is one of the shippiest episodes ever.

So, you can talk to me all you want about how anti-sparky he was but I can't help but look at the final product and see the disconnect.

[Southern Red]

I try to ignore off-screen drama when I'm watching the show and this is why. I remember a while ago someone talking to me about how Carl Binder was the absolute worst, and I was just sitting there going "but he wrote Before I Sleep". And this person was telling me all about how CB shipped sheyla and hated sparky and it just didn't compute because I can't remember him being particularly ship inclined. And what's more, he wrote or had writing credits on Phantoms, an episode that had some not so shippy allusions for sheyla.

And he wrote Lifeline, which ironically is one of the shippiest episodes ever.

So, you can talk to me all you want about how anti-sparky he was but I can't help but look at the final product and see the disconnect.

I'm thinking that person is a small minority. I've never heard anyone say CB was anti-Sparky, just the opposite. He did write some Sheyla bits, but the Sparky stood out from what the other writers did with it. He also wrote TRW, which was the Sparkiest of all.

OTOH, Mullie & Mallozzi wrote Misbegotten and the "defending my honor" scene and Gero wrote Conversion, which was all over Sparky in spite of you know which scene.

I know they often said the writing was a group effort, so who knows who took which position. Except for Mullie vetoing Sheyla and JM being pro Sheyla, we know nothing.