Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[poundpuppy29]

[Pearl of Atlantis76]

In what concerns Kate, to me, and following the story line that Elizabeth and Carson would still be there, in the end of the said episode of Kate’s death, the end of this episode should have been John waking up in the infirmary; waking up from a coma or something similar to what happened to Elizabeth in the “Real World” episode, we would see that the events of this episode were nothing but a dream.

And I totally agree with Gateraid that

everything from a certain point was all in John's head, then it would have been an amazing insight into his personality.

Having Sam give the announcement, seeing how they had zero history together. And then add Jennifer telling Sam what a good job she did.

Don’t get me started on this scene, i really dislike it, it really doesn’t make any sense, and i agree, Carter probably didn’t even know Kate.

hey should have had Teyla make the announcement. Rachel would have been great and it would have made our little lemming's shippy heart beat faster.

And i have never thought about it before, but yeah, Teyla should definitely have been the one to make the announcement, it would definitely have given her much more screentime. But they couldn’t have Teyla “stealing” the screentime of such an important recurrent character (I wonder why they didn’t have Dr. Keller also say something, here, to the city. )

[Eri13]

1. Naturally - they looooved Sodney. Grodin was one of the few character deaths I can accept easily - it added something to the story, yet didn't feel forced.

Grodin broke my heart like a few of the BSG character deaths--done the way it was supposed to be done, yet he'd been such a good secondary character it hurt to lose him.

2. Pretty much. And if they'd tweaked the end slightly and said that everything from a certain point was all in John's head, then it would have been an amazing insight into his personality. He kills the psychologist because he doesn't want to talk about recent events, worries that Teyla thinks he's gonna kill her or hasn't forgiven him, thinks Lorne doesn't trust him, and is concerned that Rodney's hero-worshipping has gotten so out of hand that he is now also afraid of clowns.

That's fantastic analysis right there. With the twist on Rodney's bit, it could be he also thinks Rodney is someone who is childlike and that he always has to look out for because of irrational tendencies. Which is a really weird and uncomfortable twist on McShep.

[Southern Red]

Grodin broke my heart like a few of the BSG character deaths--done the way it was supposed to be done, yet he'd been such a good secondary character it hurt to lose him.



That's fantastic analysis right there. With the twist on Rodney's bit, it could be he also thinks Rodney is someone who is childlike and that he always has to look out for because of irrational tendencies. Which is a really weird and uncomfortable twist on McShep.

I have followed you from Twitter to LJ to here. This must end.

Or John puts Rodney in the general category of "docs" that he has to protect because they are weaker. I would love to have known what John really thought of the friendship. Being a guy, he probably went "huh?" once in awhile but never thought about it further. It was like an annoying little brother/big bro thing that you tolerate maybe.

They never made it totally clear what was happening in John's head or the other person's head and what it all meant. Remember that Doppelganger was the first ep filmed that year. There was some disagreement on whether they knew at the time that RL was pregnant. I'm thinking no because there were too many Sheyla anvils. It was a muddled mess actually. Unusual for RCC, so I wonder if there was a lot of editing to fit the new plan. I know the John/Teyla scene in his room was cut a lot. Supposedly, they sat on his bed and talked. That could have been a foreshadowing of a relationship to be developed later. All speculation at this point.

[Eri13]

I have followed you from Twitter to LJ to here. This must end.

Why? This is good strategy on your part, I'm thinking.

Or John puts Rodney in the general category of "docs" that he has to protect because they are weaker. I would love to have known what John really thought of the friendship. Being a guy, he probably went "huh?" once in awhile but never thought about it further. It was like an annoying little brother/big bro thing that you tolerate maybe.

They never made it totally clear what was happening in John's head or the other person's head and what it all meant. Remember that Doppelganger was the first ep filmed that year. There was some disagreement on whether they knew at the time that RL was pregnant. I'm thinking no because there were too many Sheyla anvils. It was a muddled mess actually. Unusual for RCC, so I wonder if there was a lot of editing to fit the new plan. I know the John/Teyla scene in his room was cut a lot. Supposedly, they sat on his bed and talked. That could have been a foreshadowing of a relationship to be developed later. All speculation at this point.

I think in "The Shrine" we get to see a little of McShep friendship as John truly thought it was. It was still a 'guys guy' type bond. Since I'm not a guy I'm not sure what sort of thinking goes into that, so I may have no idea what I'm talking about. But on the surface it was sort of like an unspoken friendship, maybe, and one that neither guy muses on until pushed to consider it. I'd like to think that by the time of "The Shrine" we're also seeing a John who's lost so many friends at that point that he skips over the awkward "Sateda" explanation of his ability to express emotion and tries a little harder to demonstrate his feelings than he did in earlier episodes.

[Southern Red]

Why? This is good strategy on your part, I'm thinking.



I think in "The Shrine" we get to see a little of McShep friendship as John truly thought it was. It was still a 'guys guy' type bond. Since I'm not a guy I'm not sure what sort of thinking goes into that, so I may have no idea what I'm talking about. But on the surface it was sort of like an unspoken friendship, maybe, and one that neither guy muses on until pushed to consider it. I'd like to think that by the time of "The Shrine" we're also seeing a John who's lost so many friends at that point that he skips over the awkward "Sateda" explanation of his ability to express emotion and tries a little harder to demonstrate his feelings than he did in earlier episodes.

Maybe a little accidental character grown on the part of the writers.

Or maybe part of it was how Joe was playing Sheppard as a sadder but wiser man who was determined not to lose any more friends if he could help it. He's going to the same lengths to save Rodney as he did to save Teyla in S4 and Ronon a number of times. Too bad they didn't include Elizabeth in the effort.

[Sparky She-Demon]

Maybe a little accidental character grown on the part of the writers.

Or maybe part of it was how Joe was playing Sheppard as a sadder but wiser man who was determined not to lose any more friends if he could help it. He's going to the same lengths to save Rodney as he did to save Teyla in S4 and Ronon a number of times. Too bad they didn't include Elizabeth in the effort.

Who was the writer that decided to cut Elizabeth?

[Scary Kitty]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Pretty Friday!

You better hope they cover every inch of your precious body.

Hey, I'm not with her, I'm with you!

3. Having Sam give the announcement, seeing how they had zero history together. And then add Jennifer telling Sam what a good job she did. ETA: They should have had Teyla make the announcement. Rachel would have been great and it would have made our little lemming's shippy heart beat faster.

To this day, that is the thing that pissed me off the most. She's only been there for one episode before this one... when the heck has she had the chance to really get to know Kate? The same goes for Keller. Their reactions ring false because we've never seen them interact with Kate before this episode.

And a big hell yeah to having Teyla be the one to make the announcement.

2. Pretty much. And if they'd tweaked the end slightly and said that everything from a certain point was all in John's head, then it would have been an amazing insight into his personality. He kills the psychologist because he doesn't want to talk about recent events, worries that Teyla thinks he's gonna kill her or hasn't forgiven him, thinks Lorne doesn't trust him, and is concerned that Rodney's hero-worshipping has gotten so out of hand that he is now also afraid of clowns.

Now THAT would have been an epic twist. You should've written the episode!

That's fantastic analysis right there. With the twist on Rodney's bit, it could be he also thinks Rodney is someone who is childlike and that he always has to look out for because of irrational tendencies. Which is a really weird and uncomfortable twist on McShep.

*snickers*

I have followed you from Twitter to LJ to here. This must end.

Or John puts Rodney in the general category of "docs" that he has to protect because they are weaker. I would love to have known what John really thought of the friendship. Being a guy, he probably went "huh?" once in awhile but never thought about it further. It was like an annoying little brother/big bro thing that you tolerate maybe.

*snickers some more* Yeah, the whole "big brother and his annoying little tagalong brother" thing was how I pictured it as well. Which took on another dimension once we found out that John really was a big brother.

They never made it totally clear what was happening in John's head or the other person's head and what it all meant. Remember that Doppelganger was the first ep filmed that year. There was some disagreement on whether they knew at the time that RL was pregnant. I'm thinking no because there were too many Sheyla anvils. It was a muddled mess actually. Unusual for RCC, so I wonder if there was a lot of editing to fit the new plan. I know the John/Teyla scene in his room was cut a lot. Supposedly, they sat on his bed and talked. That could have been a foreshadowing of a relationship to be developed later. All speculation at this point.

Ah, chaos behind the scenes. Funny how that all worked out.

I think in "The Shrine" we get to see a little of McShep friendship as John truly thought it was. It was still a 'guys guy' type bond. Since I'm not a guy I'm not sure what sort of thinking goes into that, so I may have no idea what I'm talking about. But on the surface it was sort of like an unspoken friendship, maybe, and one that neither guy muses on until pushed to consider it. I'd like to think that by the time of "The Shrine" we're also seeing a John who's lost so many friends at that point that he skips over the awkward "Sateda" explanation of his ability to express emotion and tries a little harder to demonstrate his feelings than he did in earlier episodes.

I think so as well. He'd already had that near-miss with almost losing Teyla at the beginning of S5, I can see him being more... panicky doesn't seem like quite the right word, but there's a greater intensity to his feelings, like he's trying to hold onto the people he still has and he doesn't seem to care as much as he once did that he's being obvious about it.

[Falcon Horus]

Hey, I'm not with her, I'm with you!

*has a hilarious thought*

Dumbledore's Army revisited --> Lemming's Army

[Southern Red]

Who was the writer that decided to cut Elizabeth?

It was a group decision. No one writer could make a decision like that alone. The showrunners had to approve also.

[Sparky She-Demon]

It was a group decision. No one writer could make a decision like that alone. The showrunners had to approve also.

Who were the showrunners?

[Falcon Horus]

Who were the showrunners?

At the time of Torri's kick - Mallozzi & Mullie.

Before M&M, it was Brad Wright and Robert Cooper.

[Southern Red]

Who were the showrunners?

For S1-3 it was Robert Cooper and Brad Wright. Then for S4-5 it was Joe Mallozzi and Paul Mullie.

[Sparky She-Demon]

For S1-3 it was Robert Cooper and Brad Wright. Then for S4-5 it was Joe Mallozzi and Paul Mullie.

Hmm.... *getting an idea*

[Brie]

Me. I'd rather be checking out Elizabeth's or Cadman's.

Haha, even from a girl’s POV those are good choices


Thanks for all of the pictures McBecklover, I especially like this picture

I think that it will make everyone happy.

I was just studying the copyright date at the bottom of this photo. Nearly eight years ago... *Sighs*

It doesn’t feel like it’s been that long at the same time it feels like it was forever ago if that make sense? Either way it’s great that it’s still popular though and that it’s something that’s still around, both SGA and Sparky.

Such a great episode. Mallozzi is giving his thoughts on the season 5 episodes and it just brings back to me how inferior season 5 was, especially when compared with season 1.

I so agree with you.

They definitely needed a plan and they definitely needed to have kept all the characters in the show!!! I will use spoiler tags because of the long post

Spoiler:

They definitely should not have made certain characters disappear!

They could have added the new characters (since they seem to want it so badly!) but still keep the same/current cast/characters. I can even imagine Carson going to Elizabeth and asking her if it would be possible to find a new chief medical doctor because he wanted to dedicate himself more to the Wraith research and he seemed not to be able to do both things or something like that, and then enter Dr. Keller. Things would definitely have worked so much better if Carson, along with Dr. Keller (I mean since they wanted so much to bring the character Dr. Keller to the show), had been there when the Plague showed up.

Michael could still have been able to steal Carson’s research in Misbegotten (and have done the same he did to the Athosians), including creating the clone of Carson (and then we would have two Carson, ).

In the case of Elizabeth, I think we have discussed the matter of having both Elizabeth and Carter on the show before, so I think I will not add much more about it at this point. So yeah, the stories from both seasons 4 and 5 would definitely have worked better if they had done it this way (or something like this ).

If they also didn’t have ideas in what concerned having all the characters on the show (the ones who “disappeared” and the ones that were added) they just needed to read/”listen” what the fans were “screaming” they wanted on the show, and just go from there. How hard would have been to do that? Sorry about the long post…

Those were some great points. I never minded the idea of bring over Keller or Carter for that matter it was more of how it was done and we have discussed all of this before but you made some good points/observations. Keller I feel could have worked better had the not brought her in as a replacement for Carson but more as either what you wrote or maybe as a doctor in training who is sent to Atlantis to learn about fieldwork or something, I guess I feel that it wasn’t realistic to send someone who obviously had no to very little fieldwork experience to be in charge of a medical staff in another galaxy.

Well, that's because it was Mallozzi and Mullie doing the planning. These are the 2 geniuses who came up with The Tower and Irresponsible. If it wasn't a rip off of SG-1, they weren't too bright. (Warning, warning... Danger Will Robinson... My snark and sarcasm level is off the charts tonight. )

Haha, snark and sarcasm rules, and even more so when it’s actually true.

I'll just say "ditto" to all that. As for Kate, they should have done it better if it had to be done. There were 3 main issues I had with her exit:

1. We'd just lost Carson and Elizabeth within the last few episodes. It was too much. You didn't need to "raise the stakes" for the audience at that point. It wasn't like Grodin in season 1, where it showed how dangerous everything was. We all knew from the rapidly changing cast that everyone was in danger (although if you had any inside knowledge you knew damn well they'd never kill Rodney or Sam).

2. Dying in a dream? That's almost as stupid as an exploding tumor.

3. Having Sam give the announcement, seeing how they had zero history together. And then add Jennifer telling Sam what a good job she did. ETA: They should have had Teyla make the announcement. Rachel would have been great and it would have made our little lemming's shippy heart beat faster.

Great points and so very true.

1. Naturally - they looooved Sodney. Grodin was one of the few character deaths I can accept easily - it added something to the story, yet didn't feel forced.

2. Pretty much. And if they'd tweaked the end slightly and said that everything from a certain point was all in John's head, then it would have been an amazing insight into his personality. He kills the psychologist because he doesn't want to talk about recent events, worries that Teyla thinks he's gonna kill her or hasn't forgiven him, thinks Lorne doesn't trust him, and is concerned that Rodney's hero-worshipping has gotten so out of hand that he is now also afraid of clowns.

3. ZOMG, that is a brilliant idea. Not only would it have given Teyla some more screentime and an emotional scene, it would have showed Carter's sensitivity to the situation

I had never thought of doing it like the Bolded part before but I like it and I think it could have been a great way to save the hopeless episode.