Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[McBecklover]

Hello Sparkies!

[Southern Red]

Good evening, Sparkies! Hope you've all been having a Pretty Friday! Not so pretty for me, though, because GW has been an absolute PITA to get onto all day! I didn't have any trouble with other sites, just GW. WTF?!? Hopefully whatever the problem was has been resolved, because I really don't want to miss this weekend's post-a-thon!



Too many cooks spoil the soup.

I couldn't get on GW for most of yesterday also. Not that it made me twitch...or anything.

But sweetie, it took all that time to find your path, don't succumb to peer pressure now! Stay strong!



This, and SR's earlier post, are a big part of why Carter didn't work well on SGA. I don't think I'm going out on a limb by saying that I'm probably the biggest Carter fan on this thread, yet even I was disappointed with her on Atlantis. Heck, during DG, more than once I thought "oh shut the hell up", which is the exact opposite reaction TPTW were hoping for.

I was actually really excited when I heard she was heading to Atlantis (well before news of Weir's/Torri's dumping became 'big'). At the time, the line was "Carter is coming to Atlantis on her own ship", but I think at that point they must've seriously been considering bringing her in as Apollo commander in FS (a much better way to go if you ask me, even if they'd kept everything else the same). Later on, the hype was that she was going to talk tough to Sheppard, because she was his CO, not his boss.

Ah yes, I remember those days...the conflict before the real conflict. Having her in the Ellis role would have worked, I think, differently, but it would have worked. They said they tried to write a conflict with Shep, but Carter was just too nice and it didn't work, or something. It would also, IMHO, have brought back some of the idea of him being hard to handle. I would like to have seen that.

Instead what we got was a lot of what we'd already gotten, but with different packaging. A few superficial tweaks would have made a world of difference. One of the few times I thought they 'got' Carter, and captured her "don't take over, grit your teeth and observe" moments (which you'd think there'd have been heaps of) was during Quarantine, with Zelenka. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that it was written by Carl Binder.

I liked the story old Rodney told John about what happened to Carter. I can see her being heroic like that.

And to the comments about the eating with the team moments, that *really* grated me. Why go down that path? Not only did it make Carter look bad (IDR if we ever saw O'Neill do that when he took command, but I imagine the answer is either zero or once), but with the addition of Keller it kinda made it look like the senior staff were isolationist.

I would also have liked to see the team interact more with others. John and Lorne had good chemistry. I would have liked just a moment of seeing them being friends. I know time was a factor, but I could give them a long list of scenes they could have left out.

* as a sidenote (SR might be able to answer this) I never quite got how they continually referred to Sheppard as the military commander during s4 - surely that position would have been filled by Carter, with him as her Chief of Staff/2IC?

No, sorry, I can't answer that either. In fact, if I remember correctly, Mr. SR commented at the time that they had the military protocol all screwed up. Carter would have worn a military uniform and would have been commander of the base with Shep as her XO, meaning "executive officer". In fact we have a Lt. Col. friend who is serving in just that capacity right now in Tampa. For her to wear the Atlantis uniform, she would have had to be "on loan" to the IOA. We also have an Air Force friend who is on loan to NASA, so I know that is correct. I don't know what the writers were thinking, but they muddled it all up, as usual.

You're coming to see me?

I would love to come see you. NZ is on our bucket list. I saw The Hobbit the other day and now I want to go even more. I know you must hate that all we Americans know of NZ is that movie, but it sure has helped tourism.

Bear in mind that all of what I've said, and some of what others have said, and even what the actors themselves say, is just conjecture. None ohavef us were sitting in the writers room (or producers room), not even the actors. The best we can do is piece together information from the limited amount of stuff they have said on the subject(s).

Very good point. And when we quote what actors say at cons, it is to be taken with a huge grain of salt because they tend to change their statements. One consistent thing, though, is Joe's defense of Torri and his stories of how he went to TPTB and, in his words, "pitched a fit" after they let both her and Paul go.

Apples and oranges. They knew where Teyla was (okay, initially they didn't but they knew Michael took her) and knew she was alive. If you are referring to the infirmary scene, it'd be the equivalent of her being in the apartment around the corner but not actually trying to get her out.

In terms of his motivation, that's open to interpretation. I hesitate to use the term 'sister', because it's a little more complicated than that, but given the four years of build up to that moment, if he hadn't made every possible effort to get Teyla back then he wouldn't have been the John Sheppard I thought I knew

Precisely. Remember in Sateda, the attitude John had in trying to rescue Ronon. Compare that with his attitude in S&R. I don't see a bit of difference.

I've come to think of a lot of the weaker parts of the show or otherwise stuff I don't like on can be chalked up to various failed experiments for ideas that maybe sounded half decent on paper and had awful execution.

Irresistible sounded pretty funny back when JM was talking about the "jolly fat man" on his blog. *snort* And we know how that turned out. They kept telling us we were going to fall over laughing at that ep and later at parts of others, but I don't recall ever doing that. Yet the one scene with Joe and Paul that they pulled from Irresistible might have had me doing just that. Poor judgment. They haz it.

Beauty and the Beast is a remake of a show from the 80s with Ron Pearlman and Linda Hamilton. I'm not sure how common knowledge that is because I've never actually watched either one, both shows are very heavily geared towards women. Although in fairness, from what I've heard, the recent one is different enough from the original that it could just as easily be called a reimagining as different as the new Battlestar Galactica. I couldn't tell you how good either one is.

I saw some of that old show. It was good. That was Linda Hamilton before she was buff, and Hellboy before he was...well, whatever he is. It was pretty good but has a real dated look today. The "beast" in the new one only has a little scar. I think that is kind of ridiculous.

[Brie]

Hello everyone! I couldn’t get into GW at all yesterday but I see others had problems with it as well.

I would also have liked to see the team interact more with others. John and Lorne had good chemistry. I would have liked just a moment of seeing them being friends. I know time was a factor, but I could give them a long list of scenes they could have left out.

That defiantly would have been great, I mean we did get the idea that they were all friends as well as colleagues but it would have been great to have seen more of it and interaction between the characters when they weren’t in danger.

well, the discussion seems to be interesting!!!!! that is for sure!

i just got into a TV series , it's called beauty and the beast. the woman who played Lana in smallville plays the central character named Catherine, her acting ability is not as bad as on smallville, she is much better this time round. the main guy is named Vincent. basically Vincent saves Catherine nine years earlier when some people who work with a mob kill her mother.he is like a super soldier and was trained to kill people. [ATTACH=CONFIG]36690[/ATTACH]

it is so good!!!!!! at this time i have seen 5 episodes of the show. hopefully it'll stay around

I’ve seen the first 8 epsidoes or so of that show and I really like it.

[Aang]

Ah yes, I remember those days...the conflict before the real conflict. Having her in the Ellis role would have worked, I think, differently, but it would have worked. They said they tried to write a conflict with Shep, but Carter was just too nice and it didn't work, or something. It would also, IMHO, have brought back some of the idea of him being hard to handle. I would like to have seen that.

Wouldn't it have been fairly awesome for the Sparky 'ship as a whole if they'd brought back the hard-to-handle Shep when Carter came to Atlantis? Because it would have meant Elizabeth was the only CoA who could handle him properly...anyone else see what I'm saying?

[Southern Red]

Wouldn't it have been fairly awesome for the Sparky 'ship as a whole if they'd brought back the hard-to-handle Shep when Carter came to Atlantis? Because it would have meant Elizabeth was the only CoA who could handle him properly...anyone else see what I'm saying?

Yes, I see what you are saying and agree. And we would have been very happy that he had such a good relationship with her that he seldom defied her and agreed with most of her decisions. That reminds me of First Strike when they disagreed and John was beside himself trying to make up with her. He was like a little puppy following her around and checking to see if she was still upset with him. The fact that they never got to talk it out and he never knew that she had forgiven him must have really haunted him after he lost her.

I also find it amusing that some of the Weir critics said that she emasculated him and that he was afraid to defy her. Yet, when Carter came along, they thought she and John were besties. I just have to ROTFLMAO.

[Pearl of Atlantis76]

Good evening, Sparkies! Hope you've all been having a Pretty Friday! Not so pretty for me, though, because GW has been an absolute PITA to get onto all day! I didn't have any trouble with other sites, just GW. WTF?!? Hopefully whatever the problem was has been resolved, because I really don't want to miss this weekend's post-a-thon!

Same here. But it seems to be ok now, so!

Too many cooks spoil the soup.

Tell me about it.

This, and SR's earlier post, are a big part of why Carter didn't work well on SGA. I don't think I'm going out on a limb by saying that I'm probably the biggest Carter fan on this thread, yet even I was disappointed with her on Atlantis. Heck, during DG, more than once I thought "oh shut the hell up", which is the exact opposite reaction TPTW were hoping for.

Yes, the effect of her on the show was exactly the opposite of what the TPTW were expecting, and in a way I am guessing AT realised that, and was probably why she decided to leave. (I just wished she had not accepted it in the first place.)

I was actually really excited when I heard she was heading to Atlantis (well before news of Weir's/Torri's dumping became 'big'). At the time, the line was "Carter is coming to Atlantis on her own ship", but I think at that point they must've seriously been considering bringing her in as Apollo commander in FS (a much better way to go if you ask me, even if they'd kept everything else the same).

I agree, if she would have come to Atlantis on the “General Hammond”, (probably it was still called “Phoenix” back then) lets say instead of Colonel Ellis, I think everything would have been great, and Elizabeth would have been able to stay.

Later on, the hype was that she was going to talk tough to Sheppard, because she was his CO, not his boss.

So that means that somewhere along the way they changed their initial plan? Why was that?

And to the comments about the eating with the team moments, that *really* grated me. Why go down that path? Not only did it make Carter look bad (IDR if we ever saw O'Neill do that when he took command, but I imagine the answer is either zero or once), but with the addition of Keller it kinda made it look like the senior staff were isolationist.

And there were also a lot of scenes with Carter and Keller alone, without any of the other senior staff around, it almost felt like they were the main stars then and not the others anymore, it looked weird and I didn’t like it.

* as a sidenote (SR might be able to answer this) I never quite got how they continually referred to Sheppard as the military commander during s4 - surely that position would have been filled by Carter, with him as her Chief of Staff/2IC?

Maybe because John was the military commander of Atlantis, I mean Carter came to replace Elizabeth she didn’t come as a member of the military, so maybe that’s why.

Apples and oranges. They knew where Teyla was (okay, initially they didn't but they knew Michael took her) and knew she was alive. If you are referring to the infirmary scene, it'd be the equivalent of her being in the apartment around the corner but not actually trying to get her out.

And in the case of Elizabeth they also knew where they had left her, right?

In terms of his motivation, that's open to interpretation. I hesitate to use the term 'sister', because it's a little more complicated than that, but given the four years of build up to that moment, if he hadn't made every possible effort to get Teyla back then he wouldn't have been the John Sheppard I thought I knew

I am not saying he shouldn’t have gone after Teyla the way he did, I agreed with that, I just didn’t like the fact they didn’t do the same for Elizabeth.

He wasn’t the John Sheppard I thought I knew in what regarded Elizabeth, it is sad to say but it is true (and I know why that happened – TPTW).

Wouldn't it have been fairly awesome for the Sparky 'ship as a whole if they'd brought back the hard-to-handle Shep when Carter came to Atlantis? Because it would have meant Elizabeth was the only CoA who could handle him properly...anyone else see what I'm saying?

Yes, I think I know what you mean. It would have shown us that Elizabeth was the only one who could handle him and it would also show us that John was only able and willing to support Elizabeth (no matter what) and no one else.

I also find it amusing that some of the Weir critics said that she emasculated him and that he was afraid to defy her. Yet, when Carter came along, they thought she and John were besties. I just have to ROTFLMAO.

They truly didn’t get anything of the relationship between John and Elizabeth. So sad.

[Scary Kitty]

Good afternoon, Sparkies! Happy Sparky!Family Saturday!

This, and SR's earlier post, are a big part of why Carter didn't work well on SGA. I don't think I'm going out on a limb by saying that I'm probably the biggest Carter fan on this thread, yet even I was disappointed with her on Atlantis. Heck, during DG, more than once I thought "oh shut the hell up", which is the exact opposite reaction TPTW were hoping for.

LMAO.

And to the comments about the eating with the team moments, that *really* grated me. Why go down that path? Not only did it make Carter look bad (IDR if we ever saw O'Neill do that when he took command, but I imagine the answer is either zero or once), but with the addition of Keller it kinda made it look like the senior staff were isolationist.

And then they really went isolationist with Woolsey getting his own lunch and taking it back to his office...

* as a sidenote (SR might be able to answer this) I never quite got how they continually referred to Sheppard as the military commander during s4 - surely that position would have been filled by Carter, with him as her Chief of Staff/2IC?

One would think...

I've come to think of a lot of the weaker parts of the show or otherwise stuff I don't like on can be chalked up to various failed experiments for ideas that maybe sounded half decent on paper and had awful execution. In Carter's case, I see her tenure on the show as an ill conceived idea from the start that also had an implementation that left a lot to be desired. But at the same time I think there was potential to kind of make it work. There were a handful of episodes where I felt like her presence as Commander of the Base seemed like it was worked into the plot well. Search and Rescue, ironically enough, being one of them. I think the trick was trying to find situations where Sam, McKay or Sheppard's contributions don't stifle eachother's part or their respective roles in the episode.

I think you nailed it with that bolded bit. I felt much the same way; that so many of these ideas were cases of TPTW thinking, "wouldn't it be great if..." and doing a bare minimum of story development to shoehorn those ideas into the show, but they weren't developed enough to really work. Maybe it was because they thought they could rest on their laurels and got lazy, maybe it was because they kept getting distracted by newer shinier ideas... who knows?

Ah yes, I remember those days...the conflict before the real conflict. Having her in the Ellis role would have worked, I think, differently, but it would have worked. They said they tried to write a conflict with Shep, but Carter was just too nice and it didn't work, or something. It would also, IMHO, have brought back some of the idea of him being hard to handle. I would like to have seen that.

Would've been fun to see John keep pushing the idea of going after Elizabeth/taking revenge on the Replicators, and butting heads with Carter over it. *smirks*

No, sorry, I can't answer that either. In fact, if I remember correctly, Mr. SR commented at the time that they had the military protocol all screwed up. Carter would have worn a military uniform and would have been commander of the base with Shep as her XO, meaning "executive officer". In fact we have a Lt. Col. friend who is serving in just that capacity right now in Tampa. For her to wear the Atlantis uniform, she would have had to be "on loan" to the IOA. We also have an Air Force friend who is on loan to NASA, so I know that is correct. I don't know what the writers were thinking, but they muddled it all up, as usual.

Hmm, well, we know the IOA has been trying to keep a tight rein on things in Atlantis, so the idea of Carter being "on loan" to them does seem workable, I suppose.

Yes, I see what you are saying and agree. And we would have been very happy that he had such a good relationship with her that he seldom defied her and agreed with most of her decisions. That reminds me of First Strike when they disagreed and John was beside himself trying to make up with her. He was like a little puppy following her around and checking to see if she was still upset with him. The fact that they never got to talk it out and he never knew that she had forgiven him must have really haunted him after he lost her.

I also find it amusing that some of the Weir critics said that she emasculated him and that he was afraid to defy her. Yet, when Carter came along, they thought she and John were besties. I just have to ROTFLMAO.

I know, right? WTF were some of those people smoking?

[Southern Red]

Maybe because John was the military commander of Atlantis, I mean Carter came to replace Elizabeth she didn’t come as a member of the military, so maybe that’s why.

You don't stop being military no matter what position you have. If you are in the Air Force, for example, they totally control your every move. Just like when John told Teyla and Ronon in Return I that the Air Force had plans for him and he couldn't stay in Pegasus. Sam was a Colonel in the Air Force, and John was her subordinate. He always had to take orders from her, no matter what. This is why I said earlier that they messed it up because her being in Elizabeth's job made it a military position unless they loaned her out to the IOA. They should have made that clear. But even so, John would still have had to follow her orders and treat her like his military superior. He would no longer have been the "military commander" but the second in command because she outranked him. I know this gets confusing but it's just how the US military works. John would have still done his old job but technically, Sam would have been at the top of the military chain of command.

And in the case of Elizabeth they also knew where they had left her, right?

If you're talking about Elizabeth from GitM, yes. But there was still some doubt that it was really her. I think John may have rationalized a bit that it wasn't really her.

[Annelantis]

Wouldn't it have been fairly awesome for the Sparky 'ship as a whole if they'd brought back the hard-to-handle Shep when Carter came to Atlantis? Because it would have meant Elizabeth was the only CoA who could handle him properly...anyone else see what I'm saying?

I totally agree with this. After season 4 John seemed to become the good little soldier which was not who he was at all before. It would have made perfect sense if he clashed with Carter, especially over not rescuing Elizabeth.The main thing that was different though was that he seemed to lose his soul, the sparkle was gone from his eyes. All very interesting.

[Falcon Horus]

@Gateraid - I haven't set anything in stone yet.

...beauty and the beast. [snip]

it is so good!!!!!! at this time i have seen 5 episodes of the show. hopefully it'll stay around

I've watched all of 5 episodes, I think, and then decided not to continue watching. Didn't find anything interesting about it. Found it rather lame actually. I chose Arrow (which is infinitely better IMO) over B&B.

Beauty and the Beast is a remake of a show from the 80s with Ron Pearlman and Linda Hamilton. I'm not sure how common knowledge that is because I've never actually watched either one, both shows are very heavily geared towards women.

When news was released it was clearly indicated it would be a remake of the show. Or like you say a reimagination of the old show.

I couldn't get on GW for most of yesterday also. Not that it made me twitch...or anything.

Imagines SR fixing her F5-button... or Mr. SR wondering what happened to the computer's F5-button.

...XO, meaning "executive officer"...

I learned something new today. I didn't know that.

I saw some of that old show. It was good. That was Linda Hamilton before she was buff, and Hellboy before he was...well, whatever he is. It was pretty good but has a real dated look today. The "beast" in the new one only has a little scar. I think that is kind of ridiculous.

I think Hellboy's always been a bit beast-like, don't you think so? Very fitting role...

...the effect of her on the show was exactly the opposite of what the TPTW were expecting, and in a way I am guessing AT realised that, and was probably why she decided to leave. (I just wished she had not accepted it in the first place.)

Be careful with writings like these especially since we don't know what really happened behind the scenes, the things we as mere mortal fans have no privilege to know about.

What we do know is the following:

A) Amanda had an eleventh season contract for SG1, which TPTW decided to use on Atlantis, so technically speaking she had no choice but to follow her contract. I'm sure there were small letters in it about breaking the contract but like I said not privileged to know such matters.

B) Amanda was working on her own show at the time she did season 4 of Atlantis, namely Sanctuary, and that hit it off pretty good and more importantly she was one of the PTW on it so had more control over where it went or how it was.

And I absolutely love Helen Magnus who's one awesome lady... okay, was but still.

So, there's probably a good chance AT didn't have a choice and went with the flow as best as she could. I think we have learned by now that actors generally have little say in how things are run higher up the chain unless the people in command allow them to have more of a say and value their input.

It would have shown us that Elizabeth was the only one who could handle him and it would also show us that John was only able and willing to support Elizabeth (no matter what) and no one else.

I disagree. On the outside he was still that ruggedly handsome flyboy we got to know in Rising, but on the inside he would have grown as a character over the years. Sure, he had his moments, his wild moments, but he still would have grown ... dare I say more mature in his position and his being. And like SR mentioned (I think) Carter was his commanding officer, he had to follow her orders whether he liked to or not.

They truly didn’t get anything of the relationship between John and Elizabeth. So sad.

They didn't get anything of any relationship the ever wrote.

[Annelantis]

So what happened to GW on Friday? I wasn't able to get on at all and tried throughout the day. Thank goodness we're back online!!

[Falcon Horus]

So what happened to GW on Friday? I wasn't able to get on at all and tried throughout the day. Thank goodness we're back online!!

Most likely server-issues in which case Greg has to come to the rescue. I'm sure you will be able to find the true reason somewhere on the main forum (General Hammond's office I think it's called).

[Pearl of Atlantis76]

You don't stop being military no matter what position you have.

So in that case what was the problem of having her there and keeping John as the military commander?

If you are in the Air Force, for example, they totally control your every move. Just like when John told Teyla and Ronon in Return I that the Air Force had plans for him and he couldn't stay in Pegasus. Sam was a Colonel in the Air Force, and John was her subordinate.

But John continued to be her subordinate. I mean she was the leader of Atlantis, and he was her 2C.

He always had to take orders from her, no matter what.

You mean on the times she was even around.

This is why I said earlier that they messed it up because her being in Elizabeth's job made it a military position unless they loaned her out to the IOA.

Could that mean that if she were really working for the IOA now, in a way, the military chain of command would not apply?

If you're talking about Elizabeth from GitM, yes. But there was still some doubt that it was really her. I think John may have rationalized a bit that it wasn't really her.

I am not talking about Elizabeth in the GitM, I am talking about when they left her on the Replicators’ planet, in the episode “Lifeline”.

I totally agree with this. After season 4 John seemed to become the good little soldier which was not who he was at all before. It would have made perfect sense if he clashed with Carter, especially over not rescuing Elizabeth.The main thing that was different though was that he seemed to lose his soul, the sparkle was gone from his eyes. All very interesting.

John totally lost his spark, maybe that’s why he became so obedient, and he changed. And you are right that he lost his soul. He had lost his soul mate. I agree it was interesting as well as very sad.

A) Amanda had an eleventh season contract for SG1, which TPTW decided to use on Atlantis, so technically speaking she had no choice but to follow her contract. I'm sure there were small letters in it about breaking the contract but like I said not privileged to know such matters.

B) Amanda was working on her own show at the time she did season 4 of Atlantis, namely Sanctuary, and that hit it off pretty good and more importantly she was one of the PTW on it so had more control over where it went or how it was.

So that means that she couldn’t decline the participation in S4 of Atlantis because of her contract but at the same time she could also work on her new project. What kind of a contract was that, that allowed her to work in two different projects at a time?

I disagree. On the outside he was still that ruggedly handsome flyboy we got to know in Rising, but on the inside he would have grown as a character over the years. Sure, he had his moments, his wild moments, but he still would have grown ... dare I say more mature in his position and his being. And like SR mentioned (I think) Carter was his commanding officer, he had to follow her orders whether he liked to or not.

Well he would have to follow Carter’s orders (and defy them too) like he usually did with his other superiors, including Elizabeth at a certain point, but I agree when you say he would have grown more mature, I guess Elizabeth would have taught him a thing or two in that regard.

[Falcon Horus]

So that means that she couldn’t decline the participation in S4 of Atlantis because of her contract but at the same time she could also work on her new project. What kind of a contract was that, that allowed her to work in two different projects at a time?

Sanctuary is/was her project, alongside Martin Wood I believe, so in that regard I imagine they possibly had to give in somewhere. I'm not familiar with how contracts for actors work, you'll have to ask someone who knows more about that sort of thing.

I can only compare it perhaps to working for a boss, and for yourself at the same time. You signed a contract with your employer stating you'll be there on the given days agreed upon in the contract, while the rest of the week you spent doing your own thing. But probably a lot more complicated than that.

I do remember vaguely reading somewhere that on CSI Miami, the one dude that dies at the end of season 1 (and is then replaced by Jonathan Togo playing Ryan Wolf), wasn't allowed to work on anything else cause he signed a 3-year contract or something... but don't quote me on that.

[Scary Kitty]

So in that case what was the problem of having her there and keeping John as the military commander?

Carter holds the higher rank, therefore she is automatically military commander. It's not that hard to understand.

Could that mean that if she were really working for the IOA now, in a way, the military chain of command would not apply?

No. Go back and read SR's post again, she clearly explained how such a situation should work.