Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Southern Red]

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w254/poundpuppy29/Sparky/normal_atl_312_0429.jpg

Heeeyyyy! I knew something had been missing around here lately. John seems pleased that you are back and Elizabeth is warning the boys not to write dirty captions for your pics. They, of course, will ignore her.

[Pearl of Atlantis76]

The scene that I always cling to is this one with John and Sam in Reunion. There are so many off screen possibilities here, and it totally redeems John in my eyes. The part in bold tells me that since they lost her John has made multiple efforts to be allowed to go rescue her. And since it's a very dangerous mission, he doesn't want to risk lives unnecessarily and he knows he can't do it alone.

Spoiler:

ATLANTIS. John walks onto the Control Room outside balcony where Sam is gazing over the city. She has changed into her Atlantis uniform.

SHEPPARD: Pretty impressive, isn’t it?

CARTER: To be honest, it’s a little overwhelming.

SHEPPARD: Coming from somebody with your record, that says somethin’.

CARTER: You know, John, your name was on the shortlist.

SHEPPARD: Yeah, I know. I saw what they did to Elizabeth -- the politics and the red tape. I didn’t envy her. I don’t envy you.

CARTER: Thanks!

SHEPPARD: You know, for most of us, this thing with Elizabeth isn’t over yet. She’s still out there.

CARTER: You really believe there’s a chance she’s still alive?

SHEPPARD: There’s only one way to know for sure.

CARTER: You’re suggesting we go back.

SHEPPARD: We should have done it sooner, but the I.O.A.’s been stonewalling me. Now that you’re in charge, maybe you can give me the green light.

CARTER: I’m sorry, but it’s too dangerous.

SHEPPARD: It’s no more dangerous than the last time we went in.

CARTER: Circumstances were different, plus you had an advantage then that you don’t have now.

SHEPPARD: Well, she’s the one who gave us that advantage. The only reason we’re here is because of what she did.

CARTER: Believe me, I know, and I don’t like the idea of leaving someone behind any more than you do. But I am not about to send you or anyone else on a suicide mission. Now, you come to me with a plan that has even an outside chance of succeeding and I’ll consider it. Short of that, John, I’m sorry. There’s nothing I can do.

SHEPPARD (reluctantly): Fair enough.

So that means

Spoiler:

he had actually been asking the IOA for permission to go and look for Elizabeth?

These words:

Spoiler:

"But I am not about to send you or anyone else on a suicide mission. Now, you come to me with a plan that has even an outside chance of succeeding and I’ll consider it. "

Actually reminds me what Elizabeth said to John in "Rising" when they are having the heated discussion in the balcony about going to rescue Colonel Sumner and the others.

Yes. This! And I can imagine John alone in his room running various scenarios around in his brain and remembering when Elizabeth told him she was not willing to risk losing good people like him in a futile rescue attempt. We have also determined through endless discussion that because of John's reaction to Rodney's activating the nanites that he and Elizabeth must have had a discussion at some point about not taking extraordinary measures to save the other when it seemed hopeless. John even pointed out to Rodney that he really didn't know Elizabeth if he thought she would want to be saved by becoming half Replicator. John was willing to honor her wishes, no matter how painful to him personally. And had we gotten that missing scene from Remnants with John and Kolya talking about her, we would have more insight into John's thinking. He had never forgotten her, not even for a moment, and he beat himself up more than anybody else ever could have over leaving her behind.

So in a way it was Elizabeth's good sense that in fact prevented John from going to rescue her. I had never thought about it that way.

There was a scene in "Remnants", in which John and Kolya talked about Elizabeth, that was deleted?! I didn't know that!!!!!

I never thought John had forgotten her, we could easily see he didn't, but what made me angry is that he seemed to not have tried enough to rescue her, but after reading what you posted now, i think i will begin thinking about it differently.

Many shows have similar premise, yet they have romance in them as well. They established mutual attraction between Dean and Jo, so could have easily let them become an awesome demon-hunting couple. But they chose not to. I'm fine with there being no ships on SPN, by the way. I don't think having ho established ships is a bad thing, and I'm actually quite happy with the way things were in SGA ship-wise. Give me more friendships and family dynamics, and I'll let my imagination fill in the blanks because I don't like how things are done on TV when it comes to romance, for the most part. The damned love triangles are everywhere. *sigh* The only on-screen couple I really enjoyed was John/Aeryn from Farscape. Well, and Veronica/Logan from Veronica Mars, to a lesser extent. Most of the time romance on TV makes me cringe. So I never had a problem with Sam/Jack never getting the confirmed couple status, and I'm fine with the 'uncertainty' of Sheyla- I'm glad it never turned into actual romance on screen, and thank God there was no Teyla/John/Elizabeth triangle. Sure, this approach led to a lot of diverse opinions regarding the possible couples,but I think diversity is a good thing for fandom. It keeps it strong.

OMG, a love triangle. Sounds like some crazy crack!fic if the bunnies got ahold of that idea ...

I am not sure if i would like to read anything related with this love triangle.

I say that the FRAN-Elizabeth doesn't do the whole eyesex thing as well as Torri did. But that's just me!

She was no Torri, but all in all, i think she did a pretty good job.

2. The inconclusive quality to the whole thing. Was that the real Elizabeth? Could someone pick up the nanite bodies and reactivate them? Basically the fate of Elizabeth is left in the same place as it was in the beginning of the episode. Nobody knows what happened for sure. Nobody knows what will happen in the future for sure.

That's true.

This video by SouthernRed is perfectly perfect in every way:

Now you just made me cry. And yes, she is still out there!!!!!

I didn’t mind Michelle that much either, though I probably would have needed to see her as Elizabeth a bit more than just a few scenes to be able to really see it fully, because to me Torri will always be the nr. 1 Elizabeth however if they would have brought Elizabeth home (where she belongs) and Torri couldn’t do it I wouldn’t have minded seeing more of Michelle. And Michelle did a great job bringing in the emotions that Elizabeth would have felt when John said “You might think that you are Elizabeth, but you are not” (man, that must have been painful to hear coming from him of all people).

Oh yeah, for me too!!!

I haven't even seen the episode where

Spoiler:

Elizabeth's nanites get reactivated

because I can't make myself watch it yet.

It is not easy, but i strongly advise you to watch it.

[ShWeir]

If you're a Voyager fan, you might remember the scene where the Doctor illustrates that whilst he's just a hologram (and can materialise/dematerialise) he can still pick things up, can still feel things, and is still solid. He proves this by slapping Paris to illustrate he is solid, then punches a few buttons, and when Paris slaps him back Paris's hand passes right through him. Of course the logic of this scene is undone because somehow, whilst in his 'fluid' state, he can press the buttons to make himself solid again.

I love Star Trek. I met Kate Mulgrew (Kathryn Janeway) a month ago, and she was the most amazing person ever. I went to her talk and she's so insperational, she did a good job as Janeway.

But yeah, they do that a lot with the Doctor

[Pearl of Atlantis76]

It is? Okay, I guess I'll give it a shot. Is the episode in Season 3 or is it in the beginning of season 4?

It is in the beginning of season 4.

He was moving away from his team so he'd have a clear shot at her in case he needed to shoot her. And that expression was relief that she was finally out of his life and the sexual harassment would stop. OMG, I'm crying.

You are mean!

John does that a lot I take it?

I think he does, yes.

Well, I like to think he does.

Me too!

There's a surefire way to find out. Watch all the episodes and see for yourself. :D Look closely at my sig for a preview.

Yeah, i agree. Sparky She-Demon, you should do your best to watch these episodes, sure they are sad, sure we would like they didn't exist, but since they do (unfortunately!) you should watch them, at least once.

It's also the woobie face, which is a variation of the wibble face. There's a fun game we play where we point out all the times he does it in S4-5. Actually, it would make a nice drinking game too.

And how many times does he actually do it? I never counted them.

John really took losing Elizabeth hard didn't he?

Yes, he did. And in my opinion, more than anyone else.

I would say that him taking it hard might even be a bit of an understatement, he just wasn’t the same after that.

You should defiantly check out the other two seasons at least once Sparky She-Demon, sure the first seasons had in my opinion a better quality to them but seeing them at least once is fine and there are a few good episodes still, not many but a few, more in season 5 than season 4 but it’s probably best if you create your own opinion, who knows, maybe you’ll really enjoy it though you can skip Doppelganger, that episode was just all kinds of bad.

I think there were worst episodes than Doppelganger, IMO.

I'll try to get my hands on at least one of the remaining seasons, hopefully both of them! Of course, John not being the same, gives rise to many fix-it fics.

Yes, you should do that. And now i understand why certain things happened in your fic the way they did, because you didn't watch the last two seasons.

so..i'm not the only one who's avoidednot seen s4 & 5?

IMO, i think everyone should watch seasons 4 and 5, at least once, no matter how painful (in different ways) some of the episodes might be.

But if she's a hologram, then how will they do the horizontal tango?

John can hop in one of the stasis pods and Elizabeth can enter that virtual world.

There is a thought!

It makes me cry, weep, bawl like a baby every single time I see it. And I am not one who does that often.

I am the opposite, i am always very emotional and passionate about this kind of things, so i am always crying.

David was the younger brother, according to Mallozzi. And David's comments in the episode about John being the one who was "expected" to take over the family business and all that (as is typical for an eldest son) would certainly seem to support that.

Okay. And where is that piece of evidence?

Watch Outcast.

Sparky She-Demon, you are missing quite a lot of information by not watching the episodes from seasons 4 and 5.

Question, how would the family react if they found out that John had kids? You know like in the situation of TWGO?

I think they would welcome them, the family is not very pleased with what John did, but they are not that resentful to the point of not accepting his kids. In fact i often imagine that

Spoiler:

when John will find Elizabeth he will definitely introduce her to his family.

How can anyone deny the sparks after that scene? No, seriously. Elizabeth tried to give John a look of reassurance, silently saying, "Everything will be all right in time." Knowing John, it will take a long time for him to heal. I really don't think that I had ever seen John look so devastated.

Except maybe when he came to know that Elizabeth was never going to be the same Elizabeth again and so on.

My point exactly. And one of the reasons I admire and respect JoeF so much has a lot to do with that look. It makes me wonder if it was scripted or improvised...

Do you still have any doubts about it? I am sure it was not scripted!

TWGO is my Sparky fanfic story "The World Goes On". What was the huge misunderstanding?

Once again, watch the episode.

I take it that Carl Binder writing the episode was a good thing?

Carl Binder was the one who wrote the best Sparky episodes.

And we always felt Carl Binder was the best writer of Sparky, from BIS right up to Lifeline, though some of the other writers may have unintentionally shown how close they were also.

But IMO not as close as Carl Binder.

Still wish Elizabeth hadn't gotten killed off.

Here's a Sparky Christmas vid to the tune "All I Want For Christmas is You"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnhZY...3EAC8BC63C323F

Sparky Christmas is just perfect!

[Pearl of Atlantis76]

I was thinking about the woobie face in GitM (which I will confess I haven't seen yet but I've seen enough caps and read the transcript) and imo I think it was an improvisation on Joe's part...we all know he wasn't pleased with how Torri was treated towards the end and I wouldn't put it past him to make that displeasure known in any means possible

I agree, such woobie face would have never been scripted.

Wow, I didn't realise JM had said that about Carl. I've started to wonder now whether, with the benefit of hindsight and how Binder opined that he loved writing McKeller and Keller, if he wasn't hedging his bets early on by laying some (very subtle) groundwork for sparky in case TPTW changed their minds and went with that pairing.

I like this thought!

The bolded part is a lesson John and I should both REALLY try to learn.

Add me to that list as well, mandogater.

And me.

Hey, I just noticed I got promoted!!

Now I'm the very model of a modern Major General. I have information animal, vegetable and Sparky. Or however that tune goes.

Congratulations!!!

Ah, on the topic of Michelle M's Liz, from a little bit back, I just thought I'd add my two cents. Like a lot of you, I was really happy with her performance, especially since, going into it, I thought we were going to get two completely different versions of Liz. The only major problem I had with the episode was the way the character was written. Maybe some will argue that Elizabeth was still herself, but to me it didn't seem like Original-Lizzeh would've (if you're planning to watch it, this might be a spoiler) brought all these replicators back to Atlantis to ask for bodies(end spoiler).

You might have a point there.

That would've been awesome if most of it had been in John's head. Like, say, everything from FS onwards. LOL

Couldn't agree more!

And that idea right there is why so many of us are convinced is the canonical proof that FRANibeth was NOT the original Weir, even though she claimed she was. Along with Mallozzi basically confirming on his blog that the "plan" for Season 6 was that the real Weir was going to be found elsewhere.

Can hardly wait

Spoiler:

for that to happen!

Wow again. I wonder how this person perceived his "what if one of them wanted to stay" line. He must've meant for interrogation purposes *nods*

LOL

YES. There were a few plots that they were trying to sell us that I didn't quite buy (see what I did there? *she said lamely*) Long Live Elizabeth! If only we could've seen that part of S6. Sigh...

Yeah...

[Pearl of Atlantis76]

That's an excellent point. The Elizabeths we saw in TMC, BAMSR and GitM were just far too... Zen, I guess, about the whole thing. Way too accepting of it all, in comparison to when the Original Elizabeth woke up in Adrift and was just this side of freaking out about the whole thing. The contrast is definitely something to raise the hair on the back of your neck just thinking about it.

So that leave us only two options:

1) Our Elizabeth is actually dead, like Replicator Keller said;

2) Or She is still out there and John will bring her home!!!!

[Scary Kitty]

So that leave us only two options:

1) Our Elizabeth is actually dead, like Replicator Keller said;

2) Or She is still out there and John will bring her home!!!!

Option #2. Definitely.

[Falcon Horus]

Remember how I once mentioned how I get to choose the names that go on our counted cross stitch designs at the company I work for. Remember how I once mentioned I actually used John and Elizabeth on a wedding sampler once....

It stuck!

[Brie]

Hello everyone! Just got back home after a long con day and I’m exhausted.

The whole “was she really Elizabeth post Lifeline” thing is really interesting on many levels. Since we never got any real answers you really can imagine anything. One thing I always wondered what the possibilities are that the replicators felt that keeping Elizabeth alive would be worth a lot and maybe since they were reprogrammed to attack humans now that maybe they had some way to get the nanites in Elizabeth to in some way heal her because she would be worth more to experiment on as a full human then as part replicators but then once she was healed they were able to extract the nanites within her and use them to create replicators clones that would still look and very much be like her and those are the once who the Atlantis expedition encountered. And also once she was healed they did use human Elizabeth to try and find the best way to get rid of the other humans in the Pegasus galaxy. We do hear in “Inquisition” that the replicators had been using that same beam that they had used on Atlantis to destroy other worlds, maybe it was by looking into Elizabeth’s mind that they saw what it could really do and knew how effective it was…ok, maybe all this is a stretch and just my tired minds way of trying to find ways to bring Elizabeth

It's too bad Elizabeth wasn't in that scene, too.

And Carson, kinda makes me hate the end scene in ‘Doppelganger’, I mean why would Keller and Carter get to be in the team moment but Elizabeth and Carson got left out in that.

[ShWeir]

Remember how I once mentioned how I get to choose the names that go on our counted cross stitch designs at the company I work for. Remember how I once mentioned I actually used John and Elizabeth on a wedding sampler once....

It stuck!

That is AMAZING!!!!

[Falcon Horus]

That is AMAZING!!!!

I know, right.

There's also a Kate/Rick floating about, inspired by Castle of course. Although that design hasn't made it into a catalogue yet, I think. I should know this but since so many production orders have passed my desk I can't really say for sure.

[Sparky She-Demon]

So that leave us only two options:

1) Our Elizabeth is actually dead, like Replicator Keller said;

2) Or She is still out there and John will bring her home!!!!

I prefer option #2.

[gateraid]

oh, that's right! I'd forgotten about the reset. But yes, that was the one I was talking about. Bob Picardo is a fantastic actor, isn't he? Sometimes I'll watch both shows in a day, and, a couple hours later, when I'm thinking about them, I'll just realize "My God. That's the same guy!!!

I differentiate them easily. But I also hold a grudge against Woolsey for what he said when he was back on SG-1, so don't use me as an example

I know that Carl Binder once said in an interview on GateWorld that he wasn't the best when it came to creative writing, but he enjoyed working with the characters and their individual personas. He tried focusing on the moral dilemmas a character might face and used those to come up with sci-fi related plots. Just look at the whole spectrum of episodes he's written that deal a lot with the characters themselves. We have all of the Elizabeth episodes, such as "Before I Sleep" and "The Real World." "Letters From Pegasus" let us sympathize with the characters as they wished their loved ones well. "Critical Mass" gave us some amazing Teyla moments and a debate with morality at the episode's end. And "McKay and Mrs. Miller" was a touching story that left us with the message of the importance of family and friends. (I love how the episode closes with John and his team chatting and laughing in the mess hall.) If anyone is the king when it comes to truly knowing and understanding his characters, it's Carl Binder.

I didn't realise he'd said that about himself. Quite interesting.

I also didn't realise he'd written LFP. Interesting again. Not only does it seem to deliver a death punch to Sheyla (which would be recoverable from, if they chose to go down that path, but there is no denying that Teyla was left disillusioned during that ep), but its interesting how he wrote Teyla there. She was the moral compass there, making an impassioned plea which fell on (temporarily) deaf ears. In Michael, again she takes this role. Misbegotten's most emotional scene (putting the sparky squeefest aside) was with Michael and Teyla. Alan McCollough (sp/name) has always been good at writing her too, so I was surprised when in s5, in what was an ep that was tailormade for a voice of conscience, she was surprisingly silent during Outsiders. I guess that's just a commentary on how things had changed over the years

Oh, gosh! If that was his intention, then his efforts certainly showed on-screen. This just goes to show that he really did know his characters well. He could see deep into John and Elizabeth's chemistry on-screen and how they may be a potential couple to ship in the future.

I doubt it. As was quoted above, I think it was just his way of working process.

It kind of bothered me in any episode "Elizabeth" appeared in after "Lifeline" how she seemed too calm. We know how Elizabeth isn't a very outwardly emotional woman, but one would think that after her ordeal with the Replicators and finally seeing her friends again, she would be more emotional about it. Instead, we can see in "The Mortal Coil," where "Elizabeth" is a clone, it seemed as if she was taking what had happened to her in stride.

And not to mention, it was a bit difficult for me to imagine Elizabeth working with the Replicators to build human bodies, even if they were a faction who wanted to break away from Oberoth. After "The Real World," you would think that nanites were now one of her biggest fears. That was reinforced in "Adrift" and "Lifeline" after Rodney reactivated her nanites. And now, she's working with Replicators, manufactured from the very insidious robots that had been unleashed in her body and caused her much emotional trauma. I suppose one could argue that she was trying to make the best of the situation, but that would imply that she still had hope for herself. In "Adrift" and "Lifeline," her despair when she talked with Teyla and John seemed to send the message that she didn't want to live anymore, and that may have also been another reason why she sacrificed herself to the Replicators. If I was told that we never saw the real Elizabeth after "Lifeline" again, and she was actually in stasis, free from emotional trauma, I could probably believe that.

Yeah, that was the thing that struck me about it (her working with the replicators on Atlantis). Whilst its hard to say what would have actually occurred to her during her 'absence', at her core she still would have realised that the replicators were bad. She didn't bat an eyelid at the nixing of Niam during The Return II, and he was almost a 'friendly'. To go from "kill me if I even begin to look like I'm acting suspicious" to "I brought some friends with me for a sleepover" is a bit of a character overhaul.

Ah, so that explains this look...

http://www.gateworld.net/gallery/alb...l_411_1162.JPG

This makes no sense to me but I'm gonna do it anyway???

So true. She seemed too much like the Weir in TMC, not our Elizabeth, but a close copy.



And he's really good at it. Just ask the writers for SGA-R.

Thanks. I think

If I remember correctly, it was said that John was worried that she would want to stay and was preparing to stop her. He was afraid Woolsey would go along with it, so he wanted to find out what would happen if she asked to stay. I swear *hand in the air* I am not making that up.

You aren't, but surely that poster must've been

That pic that FH posted just says it all. That version of Elizabeth was capable of doing what the Elizabeth in GitM did, but I don't see her as the real Elizabeth either. I hadn't thought about it before, but you brought up an excellent point. She was much too calm in TMC. At times, she could be very emotional, whether angry, worried or sad. There was always some sense of what she was feeling in her face, but in TMC in the back of the jumper when she was talking with John and then again when they were walking, she didn't show any emotion at all. She might have been talking about ordinary every day events for all the emotion she showed. Look at John's poor little woobie face in those scenes. He had his heart on his sleeve.

Playing Devil's Advocate, the argument could be made that during the flashback scene in GitM where she talked about them turning her into a full replicator, in actuality the 'fuzz' bit was them making a copy(s) and activating it (them).

That's an excellent point. The Elizabeths we saw in TMC, BAMSR and GitM were just far too... Zen, I guess, about the whole thing. Way too accepting of it all, in comparison to when the Original Elizabeth woke up in Adrift and was just this side of freaking out about the whole thing. The contrast is definitely something to raise the hair on the back of your neck just thinking about it.

^ this

Hey! LTNS!

Heeeyyyy! I knew something had been missing around here lately. John seems pleased that you are back and Elizabeth is warning the boys not to write dirty captions for your pics. They, of course, will ignore her.

I got nothing. The thought process got sidetracked when I tried to use Weir's boobs as inspiration

I love Star Trek. I met Kate Mulgrew (Kathryn Janeway) a month ago, and she was the most amazing person ever. I went to her talk and she's so insperational, she did a good job as Janeway.

But yeah, they do that a lot with the Doctor

Loved the show at the time, loved Janeway, but it's one of those shows (to me, at least) that when someone points out the character flaws in it, I think "why didn't I realise that at the time". Also, there was a lot of unused potential (storywise) with that show

Remember how I once mentioned how I get to choose the names that go on our counted cross stitch designs at the company I work for. Remember how I once mentioned I actually used John and Elizabeth on a wedding sampler once....

It stuck!

That bastard. He's cheating on her with some blonde. Oh, wait, that might be Kate. That's okay then

Hello everyone! Just got back home after a long con day and I’m exhausted.

The whole “was she really Elizabeth post Lifeline” thing is really interesting on many levels. Since we never got any real answers you really can imagine anything. One thing I always wondered what the possibilities are that the replicators felt that keeping Elizabeth alive would be worth a lot and maybe since they were reprogrammed to attack humans now that maybe they had some way to get the nanites in Elizabeth to in some way heal her because she would be worth more to experiment on as a full human then as part replicators but then once she was healed they were able to extract the nanites within her and use them to create replicators clones that would still look and very much be like her and those are the once who the Atlantis expedition encountered. And also once she was healed they did use human Elizabeth to try and find the best way to get rid of the other humans in the Pegasus galaxy. We do hear in “Inquisition” that the replicators had been using that same beam that they had used on Atlantis to destroy other worlds, maybe it was by looking into Elizabeth’s mind that they saw what it could really do and knew how effective it was…ok, maybe all this is a stretch and just my tired minds way of trying to find ways to bring Elizabeth

Again, I think this is one of those times where they were a little tied by off-screen issues. If they'd said that Weir was alive for sure, then that would have tied them to Torri (although they did manage to do a sidestep during GitM) permanently. Whilst I think it was illogical that Oberoth would have had her killed immediately (they're replicators, they have all the time in the world to experiment on her), I can understand it from a production perspective

[drewandian]

Just throwing this out there (and not quoting anything because there's just too much)...maybe post-Lifeline Elizabeth was zenlike *because* of the nanites. They'd be bound to change her over time, imo.

And I intend to do a full re-watch of SGA as soon as I move and get my DVDs out of storage; this time I'll watch S4 and S5 too...

[Sparky She-Demon]

Hasn't seen Adrift, Lifeline, or First Strike! *lalalalala* *fingers plugging ears*!