Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Southern Red]

Holy crap! Lots of interesting discussions!



I'm just the opposite. I don't ship John with anyone else (although Nancy is okay) but Elizabeth I'll ship with everyone. In my world everyone must love Elizabeth.

They all love her, but it's hands off. She belongs to John.

http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/...s/pegasus2.png

In that shot, John looks like he's just moved back to avoid Vala's foot, and she's all proud of herself. Heh. I was really looking forward to them meeting and thinking they would have her flirt outrageously with him, but nada. That would have been fun, especially to see Elizabeth's reaction.

And oh yeah, it seems an appropriate time for me to insert this one:

http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/...or-subtext.jpg

I needed that poster when I was teaching literature to 8th graders.

Whoa, the thread's pretty busy today! Very interesting discussion... now I'll just add my two cents.



I actually didn't dislike Jennifer, either. I personally thought that she was a very interesting character, and one of my favorite episodes from Season 4 (and this is saying a lot, because there weren't a lot of episodes I liked after Elizabeth left) was "Missing." We learn so much of who she is in that episode: a small-town girl who grew up too fast (that, we learned in "Quarantine"), diffident and insecure, lost and lonely, unsure of where she belonged. I liked how she contrasted from the confident and experienced members like John and Rodney. Now granted, I can understand why she may not appeal to many people, and I do agree that she could have been written better. I think that a lot of the hate towards Jewel and her character may have been fueled by the fact that she took Paul McGillion's place. Fans of Carson were already outraged at his death, and unless the character who replaced him was easily likable, they were unwilling to accept someone else in his place.

And then later on in S5 the writers had Jennifer talking about playing bar games. Something didn't add up.

Hmmm, siblings? I actually haven't thought about it that way, but that is an interesting way to look at it. I personally just didn't like the idea of Sheyla to begin with. I don't know really know how to say this, but from my point of view, a romantic relationship between the two of them would have been something along the lines of "suave, sexy guy gets hot chick." It almost seemed like the show was going in that direction the way the writers wrote John and Teyla in "Rising, Part 1," and to be perfectly honest, if the show did indeed go in that direction, I don't think that Atlantis would have been as appealing to me.

I think this was the general intent at the beginning, but it fell flat and they didn't know how to revive it. The whole idea was so stereotypical and boring. It's been done a thousand times, hero goes to new strange culture and conquers native woman. South Pacific did it better, and so did Princess of Mars (the book, not the movie). All they had to go on was looks. They forgot about chemistry.

Are you serious about this?

You asked was I serious that Mallozzi said John was going to find Elizabeth and bring her back in S6? Yes, I think he said "Sheppard's team", but still, that's what he said on his blog. I think the plan was to send her back to Earth, but I may be wrong about that one. They didn't plan to return her to her old job, and they never would have shipped her with John.

[Falcon Horus]

At what time is the rewatch today?

[Scary Kitty]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Lazy Sunday and... S-minus 4 hours and 50 minutes to the Progeny post-a-thon!

On this weekend's College Football Round-up: Georgia beat Georgia Tech 42-10, Virginia Tech beat Virginia 17-14, Tennessee beat Kentucky 37-17, USC lost to Notre Dame 22-13, Air Force lost to Fresno State 48-15, and Navy had a bye this week and will play Army in their great rivalry game next Saturday. So I'll be over here in the corner with John, Lorne, and the rest of the Airmen of Atlantis, crying into our beer.

*waves* Hi, Carson fan over here... Yes, I was pretty crushed when I found out he died, and yes I was pretty frustrated that she was his replacement. Admittedly I'm not a huge Keller fan for the obvious reasons...but she did earn respect from me a few times. Namely, that episode "Missing" when she told Teyla that she was nervous because of how the Athosians had loved Beckett and she knew she wasn't him, the end of Kindred 2 where she promises Clone!Carson that she'll work on the cure, and the episode at the beginning of s5 where she recreates the serum to save the clone.

And I have no problem whatsoever with Jewel, it obviously had nothing to do with her or her character as to why they killed off Carson. That was just TPTB deciding the "Sunday" episode was too peaceful without a twist, really. Jewel didn't even come on the scene until after that episode...I'm just not a fan of Keller. Same as I'm not a big fan of Dr. Lam on SG-1 even though I know she had absolutely nothing to do with Janet's death. They're just...not the originals and never will be in my eyes. Keller isn't Beckett and she never will be...doesn't mean she can't be a good CMO for Atlantis, just means she's not Carson

And if anything, S5 proved that Beckett and Keller could both be on Atlantis at the same time and not stepping on each other's toes, storywise. Now why couldn't TPTW figure out how to do that with Elizabeth? Plenty of fic writers figured out how to make it work, so what does that say about the so-called "professionals" who were writing the show? Not anything good, that's for sure.

Does that include Kavanaugh and Colonel Ellis (how i hate the man, LOL!)?

And Oberoth, too.

They all love her, but it's hands off. She belongs to John.

Indeed.

In that shot, John looks like he's just moved back to avoid Vala's foot, and she's all proud of herself. Heh. I was really looking forward to them meeting and thinking they would have her flirt outrageously with him, but nada. That would have been fun, especially to see Elizabeth's reaction.

*snickers*

At what time is the rewatch today?

1 pm Pacific Time, 4 pm Eastern.

[Falcon Horus]

1 pm Pacific Time, 4 pm Eastern.

Err... ... *scratches head* ...

One google-search later...

9pm -- I hope to be on time as I watch the result show for Strictly Come Dancing around 8:20pm (GMT+1).

[Southern Red]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Lazy Sunday and... S-minus 4 hours and 50 minutes to the Progeny post-a-thon!

On this weekend's College Football Round-up: Georgia beat Georgia Tech 42-10, Virginia Tech beat Virginia 17-14, Tennessee beat Kentucky 37-17, USC lost to Notre Dame 22-13, Air Force lost to Fresno State 48-15, and Navy had a bye this week and will play Army in their great rivalry game next Saturday. So I'll be over here in the corner with John, Lorne, and the rest of the Airmen of Atlantis, crying into our beer.



And if anything, S5 proved that Beckett and Keller could both be on Atlantis at the same time and not stepping on each other's toes, storywise. Now why couldn't TPTW figure out how to do that with Elizabeth? Plenty of fic writers figured out how to make it work, so what does that say about the so-called "professionals" who were writing the show? Not anything good, that's for sure.



And Oberoth, too.



Indeed.



*snickers*



1 pm Pacific Time, 4 pm Eastern.

Wait, what? Don't we usually do the postathon at 4:30? Or am I having another senior moment? If you want to change it, 4:00 is good for me.

[Scary Kitty]

Wait, what? Don't we usually do the postathon at 4:30? Or am I having another senior moment? If you want to change it, 4:00 is good for me.

WHOOPS! My bad, you're totally right, it's 1:30/4:30.

This is why I shouldn't post until I get my first cup of coffee in the morning.

[Brie]

*waves* Hi, Carson fan over here... Yes, I was pretty crushed when I found out he died, and yes I was pretty frustrated that she was his replacement. Admittedly I'm not a huge Keller fan for the obvious reasons...but she did earn respect from me a few times. Namely, that episode "Missing" when she told Teyla that she was nervous because of how the Athosians had loved Beckett and she knew she wasn't him, the end of Kindred 2 where she promises Clone!Carson that she'll work on the cure, and the episode at the beginning of s5 where she recreates the serum to save the clone.

And I have no problem whatsoever with Jewel, it obviously had nothing to do with her or her character as to why they killed off Carson. That was just TPTB deciding the "Sunday" episode was too peaceful without a twist, really. Jewel didn't even come on the scene until after that episode...I'm just not a fan of Keller. Same as I'm not a big fan of Dr. Lam on SG-1 even though I know she had absolutely nothing to do with Janet's death. They're just...not the originals and never will be in my eyes. Keller isn't Beckett and she never will be...doesn't mean she can't be a good CMO for Atlantis, just means she's not Carson

Carson is one of my favorite characters as well, and I loved the way Paul brought him to life. I also loved that there are so many scenes with Carson and Sparky, both together and individual.
The scene when Clone-Carson came back and asked to see Elizabeth was just heartbreaking, I mean he knew what we know that Elizabeth was a great leader and friend who always had everyone back. I always felt when I saw the first three seasons that Carson was the heart of Atlantis with his kind and good heart and Elizabeth was the soul of Atlantis with her kind and strong and passionate spirit and with both of them gone, the last two season really did feel as if it was missing something.

Hmmm, siblings? I actually haven't thought about it that way, but that is an interesting way to look at it. I personally just didn't like the idea of Sheyla to begin with. I don't know really know how to say this, but from my point of view, a romantic relationship between the two of them would have been something along the lines of "suave, sexy guy gets hot chick." It almost seemed like the show was going in that direction the way the writers wrote John and Teyla in "Rising, Part 1," and to be perfectly honest, if the show did indeed go in that direction, I don't think that Atlantis would have been as appealing to me.

I also believe that, that they had some ‘Pocahontas’ type idea with the whole thing but I’m glad they didn’t elaborate on that.

And if anything, S5 proved that Beckett and Keller could both be on Atlantis at the same time and not stepping on each other's toes, storywise. Now why couldn't TPTW figure out how to do that with Elizabeth? Plenty of fic writers figured out how to make it work, so what does that say about the so-called "professionals" who were writing the show? Not anything good, that's for sure.

I so agree with this, and still feel odd that something that seem so obvious to me on how to write something that would make everyone happy wasn’t for the writers.
When it comes to killing of characters then if you look at SG-1, it wasn’t until what? Season 7 that one of the leads died the first time when Daniel died and then he came back and then it wasn’t until season 9 when RDA and Don S. Davis decided to leave, but how they could go so long without any actors being forced to leave yet by the time season 4 came around of SGA they had killed off 3 lead actors, it’s just sucks.

[Falcon Horus]

So, 9:30pm GMT+1 ... time is bloody confusing...

[JT-2]

I'm using my phone to post, so I'm not going to try quoting. Just wanted to add that the most bizarre pairing I've ever seen was John/Kavanagh. Naturally there was a fair bit of Elizabeth bashing in it that pissed me off.

[Aang]

And if anything, S5 proved that Beckett and Keller could both be on Atlantis at the same time and not stepping on each other's toes, storywise. Now why couldn't TPTW figure out how to do that with Elizabeth? Plenty of fic writers figured out how to make it work, so what does that say about the so-called "professionals" who were writing the show? Not anything good, that's for sure.

True, although for the majority of S5, Beckett wasn't so much in the city of Atlantis itself as doing his Doctors without Borders Pegasus-style, which was all well and good since at least he was back...in a sideways kind of just-enough-to-make-you-want-more sort of way. But the only reason they even brought him back was because of his fans...

[MentallyUnstableFox]

It's on page 6475. I hope you like it!

Yes! I really did enjoy it! this little part, for some reason, was my personal favourite:

Spoiler:

'Hey, I don't need to remind you that you've screwed up more than once since we've known each other.'
'But you still do.' Rodney said with a weak smile, 'Look, I'll talk to Carson.'

Thanks, I'm so glad you enjoyed it! I guess I just had a sudden burst of inspiration this week and wrote like crazy, though it may be at least another week or so before my next update... my muse is burned out and must take a break. But what I write next should be interesting...

...I think my muse got hit by a bus..

Oh, that's right. I knew about Boxing Day but I didn't know it too had grown so big. Not really surprised by the Canadians coming over the border. Anything for a bargain, heh. We don't call it Boxing Day, but years ago the day after Christmas was a huge shopping day. I used to go and buy Christmas cards and wrapping paper for the next year, plus when I was a teenager I'd go and spend all my Christmas gift money on clothes. Everything would be reduced an average of 50%. Now it all happens before Christmas.

D'oh! ::facepalm:: I've never thought about doing that!! Thank you you have saved me *bows*

(soldier vs diplomat, military vs civilian),

War and Peace?

There is actually supposed to have been a gay character on SGA,

Spoiler:

there is a scene where one of the women (it’s possible that it was Vega, I don’t remeber her first name or her military rank, but she was the dark haired soldier that first appear in Search Rescue and then as one of the members of the all-female team in ’Whisperers’) but anyway there was a scene when she is flirting with Keller that is supposed to be about that though in my opinion I’m glad that they skipped the scene, not because she’s gay but because how the whole thing was done, it seem more as if it was some straight men’s girl-on-girl fantasy rather than a serious attempt to write a gay character that works.

yes, Captain Alisha Vega (or maybe sergeant). They kept that scene on the DVD, and I think one of the reasons they cut it (besides time) was because it would've made it look like everyone was going after the "new girl" (Keller), and there'd be a love....square..

[MentallyUnstableFox]

Also, on the DVD, one of the writers said that the reason they got rid of Carson was that they, "needed to shake up ratings", and because two of the episodes were shot out of order, "Sunday" was only the second-last episode Paul shot. Which is just sad. I mean, probably all the characters on SGA got some serious hate-especially Liz in the first seasons, for some reason-but, was there one person who didn't love Carson?!?!

Anyway, that's much the same problem I had with Sam on SGA. I mean, I love Sam. A lot. A lot a lot. But she belonged to SG1, and on Atlantis, that wasn't her team. It was-and always will be-Elizabeth's expedition. It felt like Sam was supposed to be "better" in some way. That's why Woolsey was easier to deal with, it didn't feel like he was supposed to be better.

On a lighter note, I've been trying to figure out what all the colours mean on those nifty little jackets the Atlantis team wears. I want one of those! (the original ones they had in the beginning, not the leather ones) I know black=military blue=scientist red=civilian, and yellow=medic, but didn't Kate have a white one? What would that mean? And what does green mean? Anyone know?

[Falcon Horus]

I'm using my phone to post, so I'm not going to try quoting. Just wanted to add that the most bizarre pairing I've ever seen was John/Kavanagh. Naturally there was a fair bit of Elizabeth bashing in it that pissed me off.

*goes to search*

Found three differen't authors for three fics for this pairing... though that's only one site. It does result a few remarkable results in google. I didn't even know it existed.

[Raelis]

I mean, probably all the characters on SGA got some serious hate-especially Liz in the first seasons, for some reason-but, was there one person who didn't love Carson?!?!

Actually, yes. I know Carson got serious hate in some corners of the fandom back in the day. I'm not entirely sure why but I think people found some of his actions... unethical? (I think every character on SGA and most of those on SG-1 did some things that can be considered unethical, so I don't see the point in singling out Carson's faults.) I wasn't around back then, but I did some research into this fandom's history because I'm geeky like that. Every single character has their own hatedom. I don't hate any of the characters, so this is difficult for me to wrap my mind around.

[Scary Kitty]

S-minus 56 minutes until the Progeny post-a-thon!

So, 9:30pm GMT+1 ... time is bloody confusing...

Sorry 'bout that...

I'm using my phone to post, so I'm not going to try quoting. Just wanted to add that the most bizarre pairing I've ever seen was John/Kavanagh. Naturally there was a fair bit of Elizabeth bashing in it that pissed me off.

*shudders*

True, although for the majority of S5, Beckett wasn't so much in the city of Atlantis itself as doing his Doctors without Borders Pegasus-style, which was all well and good since at least he was back...in a sideways kind of just-enough-to-make-you-want-more sort of way. But the only reason they even brought him back was because of his fans...

At least they did bring him back. And the Doctors Without Borders thing he was doing was really rather cool and unique, actually. Wish we had seen more of that kind of thing during the first four seasons...

Also, on the DVD, one of the writers said that the reason they got rid of Carson was that they, "needed to shake up ratings", and because two of the episodes were shot out of order, "Sunday" was only the second-last episode Paul shot. Which is just sad. I mean, probably all the characters on SGA got some serious hate-especially Liz in the first seasons, for some reason-but, was there one person who didn't love Carson?!?!

Anyway, that's much the same problem I had with Sam on SGA. I mean, I love Sam. A lot. A lot a lot. But she belonged to SG1, and on Atlantis, that wasn't her team. It was-and always will be-Elizabeth's expedition. It felt like Sam was supposed to be "better" in some way. That's why Woolsey was easier to deal with, it didn't feel like he was supposed to be better.

I couldn't have said that better myself. I think one of the big problems with Carter on Atlantis was that as she was both a scientist and military, she was kinda-sorta usurping John and Rodney's places as military head and scientific head respectively, yet she was written in such a way to basically make her look like less of an expert in her fields than she was in order to keep John and Rodney strong. To an extent, I can understand this; John and Rodney have WAY more experience in Pegasus than Carter does, with the Wraith, Ancient technology and the like. But one would assume that Carter's a quick study and would be able to get up to speed fairly easily, yet she didn't, and ultimately, it made her look like the worst possible choice, at least in terms of story mechanics. Woolsey, on the other hand, is like Weir in that both of them were neither "fish nor fowl," as it were; neither of them are hard scientists or military experts, so when they are briefed on matters and asking questions of their experts, they both look like intelligent, thoughtful leaders who try to gather as much information as they can and carefully consider all sides of an issue before making important decisions.

On a lighter note, I've been trying to figure out what all the colours mean on those nifty little jackets the Atlantis team wears. I want one of those! (the original ones they had in the beginning, not the leather ones) I know black=military blue=scientist red=civilian, and yellow=medic, but didn't Kate have a white one? What would that mean? And what does green mean? Anyone know?

IIRC, red was supposed to represent administration/diplomatic personnel (which is why Lizzeh, Teyla and Woolsey wore it; Carter should've been in military uniform like John). Yellow was for all medical personnel, including Kate; you'll notice that Carson often wore a white shirt, just like Kate did. Which is why putting Keller in blue shirts in S4-5 made no sense at all. Green represented technical/support staff.