Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Sparky She-Demon]

*pops in*

Good evening, everybody!

My fandom muse finally returned tonight, and I've been vidding for the past three hours while watching the Country Music Awards (cause I am a true Southerner LOL). Unfortunately, not Sparky. That project is still in the planning stages. Seriously. I'm taking the lyrics, double spacing and printing them, then writing which Sparky-looking scenes I will use beneath the lines.

My OCD strikes again. Ha.

Anyhow, I'll be up for a while. This creativity has me all pumped up. That, or the cup of coffee I drank at 5 is finally kicking in.

So... we'll be expecting some fanfic from you?

[ShipperWriter]

MR, I absol-freaking-lutely love all your artwork! I need to mind some new textures and start practicing on GIMP again.

[ShipperWriter]

So... we'll be expecting some fanfic from you?

Nope. Fanfic is on an indefinite hiatus. All my work I had saved on my laptop got wiped, and at the moment, RL is too consuming to allow myself to start doing fic again. Vidding, on the other hand, I can only do on my laptop at home, so I can limit how much time I spend on it.

Maybe one of these days...

[Sequoia Hope]

*mouth watering* Madness reigns, the cake looks delicious, and the pics and artwork are gorgeous! I hope I'm not too late in saying happy birthday to JT-2!

Oh, and just as a side note, did anyone notice how the first two Sparky pics Madness reigns posted are from "Rising, Part 2" and "First Strike"? They are here:

Lets pretty up the thread for JT's Birthday :

Both pictures happen to be ones of Elizabeth and John at conflict with each other, though the first one is from the beginning of Season 1, and the second one is from the end of Season 3. Compare the differences in their facial expressions and body language in the two pictures. In the first pic, Elizabeth looks a bit more stern - you can see how her eyes are narrowed and how her lips are tightly pressed together, as if she is not pleased with John at the moment and needs to talk to him privately. John, on the other hand, looks rather nonchalant, probably because he is new to everything and isn't quite sure of his place yet. However, his crossed arms also send the message that he is impatient and just wants to take action, despite the fact that Elizabeth won't allow him to.

This all contrasts from the second photo, in which Elizabeth's gaze looks softer, though that's probably due to fatigue from lack of sleep, and in which John's gaunt visage and furrowed eyebrows signal worry and stress during dark times for Atlantis. While they were at a disagreement with each other, it was clear that Elizabeth reluctantly recognized that John didn't have much choice but to do what he had been ordered to do. Similarly, John knew that Elizabeth wasn't happy about this, and he had the decency to at least feel a little bit guilty about it. I thought that this was interesting to point out, to compare how different they looked from the beginning of the expedition and from nearly three years later, and also how the pictures clearly resemble a shift in their relationship with each other. They started out occasionally clashing with each other whenever they had conflicts, and yet they soon formed a strong bond with each other, a friendship held by understanding and support, even if they didn't completely agree with each other at times.

I will admit that at the height of the storm I though about The Storm/The Eye and was glad that at least we weren't being invaded.

Gee, I wonder if she ran out into the storm screaming "KOLYAAA!" like she did last year.

ROFL. Amazing how Season 1's mid-season two-parter has affected us.

Oh, and at least half of our couple celebrated Halloween with a clever costume. At least I think he's in costume. Either way, the porn star mustache has to go.

Spoiler:

OMG, that is Joe Flanigan?! Even on Halloween, he never fails to surprise his fans...

[ShipperWriter]

Oh, and just as a side note, did anyone notice how the first two Sparky pics Madness reigns posted are from "Rising, Part 2" and "First Strike"? They are here:

Both pictures happen to be ones of Elizabeth and John at conflict with each other, though the first one is from the beginning of Season 1, and the second one is from the end of Season 3. Compare the differences in their facial expressions and body language in the two pictures. In the first pic, Elizabeth looks a bit more stern - you can see how her eyes are narrowed and how her lips are tightly pressed together, as if she is not pleased with John at the moment and needs to talk to him privately. John, on the other hand, looks rather nonchalant, probably because he is new to everything and isn't quite sure of his place yet. However, his crossed arms also send the message that he is impatient and just wants to take action, despite the fact that Elizabeth won't allow him to.

Yeah, nonchalant is a good adjective (I think that's the right term -- as much as I love reading and writing, I hate grammar) to describe John's attitude there. He gets going on a power trip since Sumner's disappeared and he now thinks he's the top dog. Elizabeth isn't afraid to call him down on it, leading to one of the greatest arguments in the show's history.

I feel like I've said that before. Heh.

This all contrasts from the second photo, in which Elizabeth's gaze looks softer, though that's probably due to fatigue from lack of sleep, and in which John's gaunt visage and furrowed eyebrows signal worry and stress during dark times for Atlantis. While they were at a disagreement with each other, it was clear that Elizabeth reluctantly recognized that John didn't have much choice but to do what he had been ordered to do. Similarly, John knew that Elizabeth wasn't happy about this, and he had the decency to at least feel a little bit guilty about it. I thought that this was interesting to point out, to compare how different they looked from the beginning of the expedition and from nearly three years later, and also how the pictures clearly resemble a shift in their relationship with each other. They started out occasionally clashing with each other whenever they had conflicts, and yet they soon formed a strong bond with each other, a friendship held by understanding and support, even if they didn't completely agree with each other at times.

I call that a look of resignation. Their hands were tied. Elizabeth couldn't stop it, and John had finally developed enough respect for commanding officers that he didn't try to defy Ellis (even though he should have, would've saved us all a lot of grief). And the look of guilt on his face when Elizabeth walks into her office reminds me of ... dang it, I just forgot. But regardless, very nice comparison between the two pics! Thanks for posting it, Sparks of Atlantis!

[Falcon Horus]

Happy belated birthday to JT-2!!

I'm in the UK right now, and the weather is... err... UK-ish. The sun was shining a couple of minutes ago, now it's raining again. Though the sun will be back - just have to wait for it.

I'm going golfing today and searching for cretacious left-overs near the cliffs of Hastings, and of course visit the ruins of William's castle.

*zips out again*

[Southern Red]

*mouth watering* Madness reigns, the cake looks delicious, and the pics and artwork are gorgeous! I hope I'm not too late in saying happy birthday to JT-2!

Oh, and just as a side note, did anyone notice how the first two Sparky pics Madness reigns posted are from "Rising, Part 2" and "First Strike"? They are here:



Both pictures happen to be ones of Elizabeth and John at conflict with each other, though the first one is from the beginning of Season 1, and the second one is from the end of Season 3. Compare the differences in their facial expressions and body language in the two pictures. In the first pic, Elizabeth looks a bit more stern - you can see how her eyes are narrowed and how her lips are tightly pressed together, as if she is not pleased with John at the moment and needs to talk to him privately. John, on the other hand, looks rather nonchalant, probably because he is new to everything and isn't quite sure of his place yet. However, his crossed arms also send the message that he is impatient and just wants to take action, despite the fact that Elizabeth won't allow him to.

This all contrasts from the second photo, in which Elizabeth's gaze looks softer, though that's probably due to fatigue from lack of sleep, and in which John's gaunt visage and furrowed eyebrows signal worry and stress during dark times for Atlantis. While they were at a disagreement with each other, it was clear that Elizabeth reluctantly recognized that John didn't have much choice but to do what he had been ordered to do. Similarly, John knew that Elizabeth wasn't happy about this, and he had the decency to at least feel a little bit guilty about it. I thought that this was interesting to point out, to compare how different they looked from the beginning of the expedition and from nearly three years later, and also how the pictures clearly resemble a shift in their relationship with each other. They started out occasionally clashing with each other whenever they had conflicts, and yet they soon formed a strong bond with each other, a friendship held by understanding and support, even if they didn't completely agree with each other at times.





ROFL. Amazing how Season 1's mid-season two-parter has affected us.



OMG, that is Joe Flanigan?! Even on Halloween, he never fails to surprise his fans...

Good observations on the contrast between the two pics. On the FS one, I also think John was very hurt by her disapproval. Several more times in that ep he kept coming back to her trying to explain, but she never really let him. It was very sad that this pretty much signaled the end of their working relationship, and I'm thinking it contributed to much of John's sadness after losing her.

Yeah on the Joe pics. I showed them to Mr. SR and had to tell him who it was. LOL

Yeah, nonchalant is a good adjective (I think that's the right term -- as much as I love reading and writing, I hate grammar) to describe John's attitude there. He gets going on a power trip since Sumner's disappeared and he now thinks he's the top dog. Elizabeth isn't afraid to call him down on it, leading to one of the greatest arguments in the show's history.

I feel like I've said that before. Heh.



I call that a look of resignation. Their hands were tied. Elizabeth couldn't stop it, and John had finally developed enough respect for commanding officers that he didn't try to defy Ellis (even though he should have, would've saved us all a lot of grief). And the look of guilt on his face when Elizabeth walks into her office reminds me of ... dang it, I just forgot. But regardless, very nice comparison between the two pics! Thanks for posting it, Sparks of Atlantis!

I don't think John really ever thought of himself as the top dog because he seemed really surprised at the end of the pilot when Elizabeth talked to him about choosing a team. I think his military training just kicked in and he went about making decisions without thinking to consult her. It also reminds me of HZ when he was so mad at Elizabeth and told Teyla that Elizabeth sometimes gets locked into a decision. Teyla reminds him that he does the same thing, and this moment in The Rising is a prime example.

[ShipperWriter]

Good observations on the contrast between the two pics. On the FS one, I also think John was very hurt by her disapproval. Several more times in that ep he kept coming back to her trying to explain, but she never really let him. It was very sad that this pretty much signaled the end of their working relationship, and I'm thinking it contributed to much of John's sadness after losing her.

Yeah on the Joe pics. I showed them to Mr. SR and had to tell him who it was. LOL



I don't think John really ever thought of himself as the top dog because he seemed really surprised at the end of the pilot when Elizabeth talked to him about choosing a team. I think his military training just kicked in and he went about making decisions without thinking to consult her. It also reminds me of HZ when he was so mad at Elizabeth and told Teyla that Elizabeth sometimes gets locked into a decision. Teyla reminds him that he does the same thing, and this moment in The Rising is a prime example.

As usual, that's what I meant, but not what came out. Thank you for being better with the English language than me.

And I loved those pics of JoeF too. Had to do a double take. LOL

[Eri13]

Glad to see our Sparkies appear safe and well. :3

Happy Birthday JT!

And following all the chaos of this week, a little treat: Adoremus, Part IV: http://www.sga-rising.com/index.php/...oremus-part-iv

[Scary Kitty]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Pretty Friday!

Oh, and just as a side note, did anyone notice how the first two Sparky pics Madness reigns posted are from "Rising, Part 2" and "First Strike"? They are here:



Both pictures happen to be ones of Elizabeth and John at conflict with each other, though the first one is from the beginning of Season 1, and the second one is from the end of Season 3. Compare the differences in their facial expressions and body language in the two pictures. In the first pic, Elizabeth looks a bit more stern - you can see how her eyes are narrowed and how her lips are tightly pressed together, as if she is not pleased with John at the moment and needs to talk to him privately. John, on the other hand, looks rather nonchalant, probably because he is new to everything and isn't quite sure of his place yet. However, his crossed arms also send the message that he is impatient and just wants to take action, despite the fact that Elizabeth won't allow him to.

This all contrasts from the second photo, in which Elizabeth's gaze looks softer, though that's probably due to fatigue from lack of sleep, and in which John's gaunt visage and furrowed eyebrows signal worry and stress during dark times for Atlantis. While they were at a disagreement with each other, it was clear that Elizabeth reluctantly recognized that John didn't have much choice but to do what he had been ordered to do. Similarly, John knew that Elizabeth wasn't happy about this, and he had the decency to at least feel a little bit guilty about it. I thought that this was interesting to point out, to compare how different they looked from the beginning of the expedition and from nearly three years later, and also how the pictures clearly resemble a shift in their relationship with each other. They started out occasionally clashing with each other whenever they had conflicts, and yet they soon formed a strong bond with each other, a friendship held by understanding and support, even if they didn't completely agree with each other at times.

Fantastic analysis. Really goes to show just how much each of them has changed personally, and how that has affected the evolution of their working relationship and their friendship. *wibbles at the FS pic*

Good observations on the contrast between the two pics. On the FS one, I also think John was very hurt by her disapproval. Several more times in that ep he kept coming back to her trying to explain, but she never really let him. It was very sad that this pretty much signaled the end of their working relationship, and I'm thinking it contributed to much of John's sadness after losing her.

Indeed. Words and deeds left undone and virtually impossible now to resolve it. Unless...

And following all the chaos of this week, a little treat: Adoremus, Part IV: http://www.sga-rising.com/index.php/...oremus-part-iv

Yeehaw! Awesomesauce!

[mandogater]

Yep, not as good as I once was, but as good once as I ever was. Heh.

Thought so. Think I heard it on the radio last week at work.

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

started to work on a little ficlet entitled "Goodbye John" takes place during the scenes of Ghost in the Machine where Elizabeth tells John, Richard and Rodney her plan and the scene at the gate room.

[Sequoia Hope]

Yeah, nonchalant is a good adjective (I think that's the right term -- as much as I love reading and writing, I hate grammar) to describe John's attitude there. He gets going on a power trip since Sumner's disappeared and he now thinks he's the top dog. Elizabeth isn't afraid to call him down on it, leading to one of the greatest arguments in the show's history.

I feel like I've said that before. Heh.

"Nonchalant" works, though "indifferent" is also a good word.

I call that a look of resignation. Their hands were tied. Elizabeth couldn't stop it, and John had finally developed enough respect for commanding officers that he didn't try to defy Ellis (even though he should have, would've saved us all a lot of grief). And the look of guilt on his face when Elizabeth walks into her office reminds me of ... dang it, I just forgot. But regardless, very nice comparison between the two pics! Thanks for posting it, Sparks of Atlantis!

Yes, a look of resignation! That describes Elizabeth's defeated and hurt expression so perfectly.

And you're welcome. I just couldn't help but notice that these two pictures were coincidentally posted one right after the other, and they share so many similarities and so many differences at the same time.

Good observations on the contrast between the two pics. On the FS one, I also think John was very hurt by her disapproval. Several more times in that ep he kept coming back to her trying to explain, but she never really let him. It was very sad that this pretty much signaled the end of their working relationship, and I'm thinking it contributed to much of John's sadness after losing her.

That truly is very sad. Had Elizabeth never been injured and safely arrived at New Lantea with her expedition, I do wonder if this could have been enough to tear apart their working relationship for an extended period of time. I think that Elizabeth and John were both very hurt by each other, Elizabeth from John submitting to Colonel Ellis and going against her word, and John from Elizabeth disapproving him and giving him the cold shoulder through the rest of the episode. If only they had been able to make amends before Elizabeth got injured... after John was forced to leave her behind on the Replicator planet, he had to live with the regret that he never got the chance to apologize and ask for her forgiveness.

I don't think John really ever thought of himself as the top dog because he seemed really surprised at the end of the pilot when Elizabeth talked to him about choosing a team. I think his military training just kicked in and he went about making decisions without thinking to consult her. It also reminds me of HZ when he was so mad at Elizabeth and told Teyla that Elizabeth sometimes gets locked into a decision. Teyla reminds him that he does the same thing, and this moment in The Rising is a prime example.

Agreed here. John was never the type of military commander to set himself above the others; even Joe Flanigan has described his character as just an ordinary Air Force pilot who just happens to be in a situation in which he and his team are nearly screwed, and he just happens to be smart enough to use his wits to get himself and his team out of trouble. Of course, using his wits does mean that he often acts on impulse, doing what he believes is the right thing to do at the time without taking into account of how others may view his actions.

[gateraid]

Hrmmm. Some interesting thoughts on those pics.

What strikes me is that they illustrate two completely different arguments. The first is procedural, the second is personal (of sorts).

Back in Rising, while I wouldn't describe it as a pissing match per se, both are trying to mark out their roles (Weir as leader, and Sheppard as [at that point] military guy/Sumner's 2IC). Weir gets her back up and pulls Sheppard aside because while he's technically only doing what he's supposed to at that point (exploring all military options) he's doing it in such a way that it makes it look like he's overriding her authority. And at that point, giving him an earful was the right call - if she gave him leeway there, in that pressure situation, he'd have done the same from then onwards. The same with him - he needed to push his agenda (the rescue). At that point, had he ignored her and gone ahead with it anyway, I would have fully supported him.

But what followed that first pic was one of the most refreshing scenes from Stargate that I'd seen (at that stage). Two people who had completely different views on something entered a discussion, without insulting each other, and managed to reach a reasoned compromise. It completely won me over. Two things I especially loved were Weir's "negotiate" line (it was the right thing to say, given that she hadn't met them, but i headdesked at how innocent she was) and him calling her out about having the convo on the balcony.

In FS (at least where that pic is) the discussion was over. Again, she didn't completely disagree with the action (a writing fail IMO - they'd have been better off having a clearer divide, one that didn't amount to "this is an ineffective first strike - let's wait slightly longer, so instead of injuring them, we can wipe them out completely", and not having the 'phone call' scene with Oberoth, but yet again I digress) but it didn't matter at that point. It seemed to me that the majority of her chagrin (given that she didn't disagree with attacking the asurans per se) stemmed from being cut out of the loop - a slap in the face considering her role. And it wasn't like Shep wasn't on her side, he just didn't agree with her (and even if he did, he couldn't have done anything about it). This wasn't like the situation with Everett during the seige - he didn't need to leap to her defence because Ellis wasn't trying to take over, he was just trying to run the mission. The disappointment that she projected seemed to be based on the fact that up until then, they'd been pretty much in sync. Here, their leadership co-op got blown to pieces.

I do add some leeway to Rising in the fact that it was practically a movie script. Tv characters always come across as a little different in movie scripts. You can tell from scene one in The Lost City that something is a little 'off'. Rising is one of the few times where I can imagine Steen playing Weir (and Browder playing Sheppard) because it's about the very essence of the characters and how they act in the heat of the moment, rather than how they're portrayed

[Scary Kitty]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Sparky!Family and College Football Saturday! Good luck to everyone's teams!

That truly is very sad. Had Elizabeth never been injured and safely arrived at New Lantea with her expedition, I do wonder if this could have been enough to tear apart their working relationship for an extended period of time. I think that Elizabeth and John were both very hurt by each other, Elizabeth from John submitting to Colonel Ellis and going against her word, and John from Elizabeth disapproving him and giving him the cold shoulder through the rest of the episode. If only they had been able to make amends before Elizabeth got injured... after John was forced to leave her behind on the Replicator planet, he had to live with the regret that he never got the chance to apologize and ask for her forgiveness.

That is an interesting question to ponder. It certainly could've given TPTW the conflict between the two that they claimed they had been trying to write for all along.

Hrmmm. Some interesting thoughts on those pics.

What strikes me is that they illustrate two completely different arguments. The first is procedural, the second is personal (of sorts).

Back in Rising, while I wouldn't describe it as a pissing match per se, both are trying to mark out their roles (Weir as leader, and Sheppard as [at that point] military guy/Sumner's 2IC). Weir gets her back up and pulls Sheppard aside because while he's technically only doing what he's supposed to at that point (exploring all military options) he's doing it in such a way that it makes it look like he's overriding her authority. And at that point, giving him an earful was the right call - if she gave him leeway there, in that pressure situation, he'd have done the same from then onwards. The same with him - he needed to push his agenda (the rescue). At that point, had he ignored her and gone ahead with it anyway, I would have fully supported him.

But what followed that first pic was one of the most refreshing scenes from Stargate that I'd seen (at that stage). Two people who had completely different views on something entered a discussion, without insulting each other, and managed to reach a reasoned compromise. It completely won me over. Two things I especially loved were Weir's "negotiate" line (it was the right thing to say, given that she hadn't met them, but i headdesked at how innocent she was) and him calling her out about having the convo on the balcony.

Refreshing is right! I remember the first time I saw Rising and being struck by just how different that moment was. I (like a lot of us, I think) was used to seeing the various members of SG-1 occasionally argue with Hammond (or an even higher-up) to let them go on a mission for some dire reason and nearly always getting their way right off the bat. So to see Sheppard get shot down, take it, and then find a way to meet Weir's criteria for a green light (with McKay's help) instead of just trying to do an end-run around her really sold me that this show was going to be different.

I do add some leeway to Rising in the fact that it was practically a movie script. Tv characters always come across as a little different in movie scripts. You can tell from scene one in The Lost City that something is a little 'off'. Rising is one of the few times where I can imagine Steen playing Weir (and Browder playing Sheppard) because it's about the very essence of the characters and how they act in the heat of the moment, rather than how they're portrayed

Absolutely. Rising, as a pilot script, would've been written before casting began. They may have had certain actors in mind for certain roles (as they'd initially had with Steen and Browder), but you're right that the "essence" of the characters is usually made much more obvious in pilots.