Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Brie]

Hello everyone! I’m still so happy about last night’s football game (I guess it’s soccer for you Americans) between Sweden – Germany, it was such a great second half.

Thanks for all of the amazing Sparky gifs and images that has been posted here the last couple of days, they are all so amazing (just like Sparky themselves are).

Aside from the line in TLG, I'd never thought of that as a Sheyla ep. To be fair, I'm not invested in that ship so it's not something I'd pick up on anyway. But it was a confusing ship ep, considering how little time 'our' characters spent in it.

I felt the same way though it was also a similar thing with ‘Conversion’ that was supposed to be this big Shelya episode when they obviously wrote it but turned out really odd in that ship department since he wound up spending basically the whole episode with Elizabeth.

Behold...

Spoiler:

And also, cause apparently I made it myself... to stay on topic...

Both of those were great, the first one was hilarious and cute and the second one was awesome because it felt were true.

[Sparky She-Demon]

The Long Goodbye is *not* a Sheyla episode. Who was that kiss between (at least their bodies were involved)? John and Elizabeth. And when John/Thalen says, "He cares about you. More than you know." I don't think he was talking to Teyla, he was talking to Elizabeth.

[Brie]

The Long Goodbye is *not* a Sheyla episode. Who was that kiss between (at least their bodies were involved)? John and Elizabeth. And when John/Thalen says, "He cares about you. More than you know." I don't think he was talking to Teyla, he was talking to Elizabeth.

I was talking to Teyla there, however, one can debate whether he just said it to throw her off and play with her mind and compassion, to me it didn’t make sense to have him say it otherwise because how out of the blue it would have been, something, judging by McKay’s reaction, he also thought.

Besides that scene though I loved TLG, I just wished that they would have had a bit more of an actual showdown between John/Thalan and Elizabeth/ Phebus, just a scene where they came face to face, maybe even fight scene (now that would have been hot, just saying).

[Scary Kitty]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Screw the Angst Wednesday!

Dirty Kitty

C'mon, someone had to say it.

And surprisingly, the explanation isn't that farfetched (the volcano bit, not the shield bit)

One of the few times they did science pretty well.

Just watched a review of a voyager ep where Janeway was doing the same thing (I notice she stopped doing it over the course of the show) and the reviewer compared her to an Emperor Penguin

*snorts*

And here comes the angst!

Very good points. We get the best look at why John is like he is in S4-5 in Remnants when Kolya brings out that John feels guilty about all the losses and blames himself. It's a real shame that the scene they had written that directly mentioned Elizabeth never got filmed. Especially in S5 at times, it was like he had just given up and stopped trying to lighten the mood.



This, yes this! John had suffered loss after loss after loss, and when it came to losing yet another team member, like he said to Keller in S&R, John just couldn't accept it. I think it goes back to his list of "family" in Sateda...Elizabeth, Carson, and now Teyla, which came to half of his list of those close to him. Throw Kate into the mix too because she was an important part of the expedition, and even though we never saw it, you just know John must have been forced to talk to her at some point after at least one of his suicide missions.

I think we must also consider the vast number of people under his command that John also lost. You could see it on his face after every incident, like in Phantoms, when members of the military were killed. As commanding officer, he would have had to write letters to all those loved ones, and I'm willing to bet every single time brought Elizabeth's "death" back home to him. Oh, and let's not forget Ford, whose death John never did accept.

After five years of dealing with... everything he's dealt with, I wonder sometimes if John was getting burned out. Atlantis certainly isn't a typical duty station, but I've got to think he's been out there longer than the typical deployment. And by his own admission, he hasn't been taking his leave time. He just keeps pushing himself, driven by his guilt over past "failures," without taking any real break. Gotta wonder what Kate would think about that.

[Southern Red]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Screw the Angst Wednesday!



C'mon, someone had to say it.



One of the few times they did science pretty well.



*snorts*

And here comes the angst!



After five years of dealing with... everything he's dealt with, I wonder sometimes if John was getting burned out. Atlantis certainly isn't a typical duty station, but I've got to think he's been out there longer than the typical deployment. And by his own admission, he hasn't been taking his leave time. He just keeps pushing himself, driven by his guilt over past "failures," without taking any real break. Gotta wonder what Kate would think about that.

Exactly, and I think in S5, more than the other seasons, it seemed like he just expected things to go sideways. And when they did, like in Outsiders, he never hesitated to do something that fell more into a gray area than a lot of his actions in the earlier seasons. He was more the John from Miller's Crossing than the John in Brotherhood, who let Kolya go. I'm betting he wouldn't make that choice again if he had a chance.

[Eri13]

While I agree his tone and demeanor changed in the last two seasons, I don't think it was the burden of command per se. If anything, he had less responsibility when Carter and Woolsey were in charge. Whilst with all of them they generally stuck to their own responsibilities, when there was anything big, John and Elizabeth tended to discuss it and come to an agreement (not always though). With Carter and Woolsey, there was less discussion and more of a single-leader approach. I'm not saying one is better than the other in terms of running the city, just that there were two different styles.

Add to that from mid s3 to mid s4 the three (high ranking) people least likely to be in the line of fire were killed (Carson, Elizabeth, Kate) in arguably preventable deaths, which he would have felt some responsibility for, along with some remorse. All of that would have affected him somewhat. And sure, they got Teyla back after Michael took her, but it looked pretty grim at one point and again, she was someone he was responsible for

When I play tennis matches, there's a point at which we say an opponent 'breaks' if she's losing pretty badly. You can see it in her face and body language, that she's just given up and is going through the motions. But whatever fire she had when she started has died away. It's at that point the match is in the bag unless the other player suddenly starts playing terribly.

I think around S4, perhaps around TLM, John just 'broke'. A lot of his levity came from team and from some of the banter with Elizabeth--if you think about the cap scenes we get at the end of some of the shows with him joking with her there are a lot more than you think about at first glance. When she left, that left with her, and with Sam and Woolsey it was a working relationship but it wasn't as friendly. And as far as the team, Rodney getting Keller took away a little of that and Teyla with Torren did too.

Everybody's lives, with the exception, perhaps, of Ronon's, changed. John's didn't. His 'life' was the same--leader of military operations on Atlantis--but the dynamic was different. And I think in a way that broke him--not as a scarred soul, per se, but in that it ended his routine, and there wasn't any way to get it back (and going back to GITM, makes that line asking Woolsey 'what if one of them wanted to stay' have so much more meaning). It made him sort of go through the motions of living more than actually live. That can wear on a soul and perhaps causes some of that 'darkness' that you see come out.

[Sparky She-Demon]

Brie The Long Goodbye is currently one of my favorite SGA episodes. Wish there was an actual fight between the two alien parties.

[pkprd869]

Gateraid I have you beat with the awkward around women thing. I did get turned down today but eh, whatever.

Shep is very much the Byronic hero type. I think losing Lizzie, Carson, and Kate very much affected him. Along with his friends lives changing I understand him starting to feel left behind. Plus he didn't have much of a chance to get close to Carter or Woolsey. Remember Shep and Lizzie were both underdogs when Atlantis first started. They could relate with each other and had time to develop a close relationship. "Us against the world" is easier to handle than "Me against the world." If TPTW played things right they could have shifted the focus more to character driven arcs in response to fan complaints, but instead they pulled the plug.

She-Demon at the Chicago con Torri did comment that TLG was her favorite episode because she got to shoot guns and beat people up.

[Southern Red]

Gateraid I have you beat with the awkward around women thing. I did get turned down today but eh, whatever.

Shep is very much the Byronic hero type. I think losing Lizzie, Carson, and Kate very much affected him. Along with his friends lives changing I understand him starting to feel left behind. Plus he didn't have much of a chance to get close to Carter or Woolsey. Remember Shep and Lizzie were both underdogs when Atlantis first started. They could relate with each other and had time to develop a close relationship. "Us against the world" is easier to handle than "Me against the world." If TPTW played things right they could have shifted the focus more to character driven arcs in response to fan complaints, but instead they pulled the plug.

She-Demon at the Chicago con Torri did comment that TLG was her favorite episode because she got to shoot guns and beat people up.

And then at DragonCon she added kissing Joe to her list of faves.

And how could any woman turn down a guy who understands the Byronic hero archetype?

[Sparky She-Demon]

And then at DragonCon she added kissing Joe to her list of faves.

And how could any woman turn down a guy who understands the Byronic hero archetype?

That would be a favorite thing of *mine* to do! What is the Byronic hero archetype?

[Scary Kitty]

Exactly, and I think in S5, more than the other seasons, it seemed like he just expected things to go sideways. And when they did, like in Outsiders, he never hesitated to do something that fell more into a gray area than a lot of his actions in the earlier seasons. He was more the John from Miller's Crossing than the John in Brotherhood, who let Kolya go. I'm betting he wouldn't make that choice again if he had a chance.

When I play tennis matches, there's a point at which we say an opponent 'breaks' if she's losing pretty badly. You can see it in her face and body language, that she's just given up and is going through the motions. But whatever fire she had when she started has died away. It's at that point the match is in the bag unless the other player suddenly starts playing terribly.

I think around S4, perhaps around TLM, John just 'broke'. A lot of his levity came from team and from some of the banter with Elizabeth--if you think about the cap scenes we get at the end of some of the shows with him joking with her there are a lot more than you think about at first glance. When she left, that left with her, and with Sam and Woolsey it was a working relationship but it wasn't as friendly. And as far as the team, Rodney getting Keller took away a little of that and Teyla with Torren did too.

Everybody's lives, with the exception, perhaps, of Ronon's, changed. John's didn't. His 'life' was the same--leader of military operations on Atlantis--but the dynamic was different. And I think in a way that broke him--not as a scarred soul, per se, but in that it ended his routine, and there wasn't any way to get it back (and going back to GITM, makes that line asking Woolsey 'what if one of them wanted to stay' have so much more meaning). It made him sort of go through the motions of living more than actually live. That can wear on a soul and perhaps causes some of that 'darkness' that you see come out.

Excellent observations! Broken and expecting-- heck, resigned to the idea-- that things are going to go sideways. It's like he's just going through the motions of what's expected of him. In some ways, the search for Teyla at the end of S4 is like the last gasp of the old Sheppard, trying to hold onto whatever pieces of this new life he's built over the last few years, trying to keep them from slipping away. And yet though Teyla is saved, he still loses her to an extent as she moves into motherhood and life with Kanaan. Ronon gets together with Amelia Banks, Rodney and Keller hook up... it's like the whole world is passing John by.

Shep is very much the Byronic hero type. I think losing Lizzie, Carson, and Kate very much affected him. Along with his friends lives changing I understand him starting to feel left behind. Plus he didn't have much of a chance to get close to Carter or Woolsey. Remember Shep and Lizzie were both underdogs when Atlantis first started. They could relate with each other and had time to develop a close relationship. "Us against the world" is easier to handle than "Me against the world." If TPTW played things right they could have shifted the focus more to character driven arcs in response to fan complaints, but instead they pulled the plug.

She-Demon at the Chicago con Torri did comment that TLG was her favorite episode because she got to shoot guns and beat people up.

Typical PTW. Take a good thing and frak it up.

And then at DragonCon she added kissing Joe to her list of faves.

And how could any woman turn down a guy who understands the Byronic hero archetype?

True, dat.

That would be a favorite thing of *mine* to do! What is the Byronic hero archetype?

Look it up.

[Falcon Horus]

Throw Kate into the mix too because she was an important part of the expedition, and even though we never saw it, you just know John must have been forced to talk to her at some point after at least one of his suicide missions.

Now why do I have a feeling that there wouldn't be much talking on his part anyway... I can see a big staring contest happening there.

Hello everyone! I’m still so happy about last night’s football game (I guess it’s soccer for you Americans) between Sweden – Germany, it was such a great second half.

I really don't want to be a German soccer player today - must be painful. Congrats to Sweden though - you guys rocked it!

Belgium won from Scotland. Our Red Devils are on a roll.

After five years of dealing with... everything he's dealt with, I wonder sometimes if John was getting burned out. Atlantis certainly isn't a typical duty station, but I've got to think he's been out there longer than the typical deployment. And by his own admission, he hasn't been taking his leave time. He just keeps pushing himself, driven by his guilt over past "failures," without taking any real break. Gotta wonder what Kate would think about that.

Well, if you must know - she's always more frustrated after a session with John. I'm telling you, even I - her trusty Lemming - don't want to be anywhere near when she comes back from those. Instead I pretend to not be nibbling on some of McKay's cables.

And how could any woman turn down a guy who understands the Byronic hero archetype?

I read Bionic Hero ... which made me go - wait what? O_o

So, had to look it up cause I don't know the term... interesting!

[mandogater]

I was talking to Teyla there, however, one can debate whether he just said it to throw her off and play with her mind and compassion, to me it didn’t make sense to have him say it otherwise because how out of the blue it would have been, something, judging by McKay’s reaction, he also thought.

Besides that scene though I loved TLG, I just wished that they would have had a bit more of an actual showdown between John/Thalan and Elizabeth/ Phebus, just a scene where they came face to face, maybe even fight scene (now that would have been hot, just saying).

Some hand-to-hand combat between John/Thalan and Elizabeth/ Phebus would have melted the cameras!!

[Sparky She-Demon]

Especially if wrestling became involved!

[mandogater]

Especially if wrestling became involved!

You are a Dirty Girl.