Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Southern Red]

Hello all. It hasn't been this quiet in a very long time. Is everybody gone for the holiday?

[Scary Kitty]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Pretty Friday!

I'm here for the weekend. Just getting a late start today.

Hello everyone!



This is an interesting point and I agree with what everyone said.


Another interesting off-world mission to look at would be ‘Condemned’ since Elizabeth wasn’t with team Shep but with Lorne’s team this time. I always did think they could have had some interesting scenes with some interesting conversations as to Elizabeth traveling off-world with any team but also one that wasn’t team Shep (though how they acted it did look as if it wasn’t the first time she had gone off-world with them, especially in the scene where Elizabeth just had to send Lorne a quick look and he knew what to do), and while I do know that they are very well trained soldiers I can’t help but think that Shep must have had something to do with who exactly Elizabeth “could” travel off-world with.

I really wish they could have shown at least one scene where they do discuss her going of world but I guess it will forever be something one will have to imagine in their own mind.

John is the commander of Atlantis's military contingent. It would be part of his job to select who could accompany Elizabeth off-world.

Submersion's another interesting twist in the dynamic. In that episode, the purpose of the mission is primarily scientific, and yet Shep is willing to let her out (under his personal protection, of course ) even when there is perhaps an element of danger to be had. He even lets her near the Queen, once the Queen is captured.

I think at that point, there's just a sync between them. In Epiphany, when Elizabeth shows up to rescue him, he doesn't ask why she's there, he basically asks why she didn't come sooner. Like he expected to see her. Of course, he'd been a couple of months locked away with a bunch of hippies, so he wasn't exactly in the 'head of security' mindset, but that was also a sign of 'friend to a friend' relationship rather than a working one. I think we're meant to imply, even if it wasn't the intention at the time, that the blows they came to in "Hot Zone" were resolved, even if it wasn't at that moment.

Considering she hugged him in Siege III because of her relief at seeing him alive, I think the lines between 'what my friend does' and 'what my boss does' were a little blurred, even at that point.

So my point perhaps is that by Progeny, in typical John fashion, he gave her lead until he felt it necessary to take it away because the circumstances got 'too hot'. And she knows where that line is. He doesn't interfere in her discussions with Niam (or her replicator induced view of history--isn't it Rodney who throws out the cautionary arm?). But once they have to escape, she's all his. I think John feels comfortable taking charge when he needs to, and she, at that point, knows him well enough to know that when he implies 'my turn', it pretty much is 'his turn'. In Hot Zone, he didn't trust her. By Common Ground, he knows what she's capable of. So the gray area is much smaller--and I bet she was willing to bend a little, too, even if he trod a little too close to her turf. She subtly points out he has the right in Lifeline, to execute her if he sees fit.

And even though she'd broken all the rules by the end of Lifeline, he trusted her enough to believe she was fully herself and would keep them safe while they made their escape. As head of security and mission leader he should have assumed she was fully compromised. As her friend, though, he placed that trust in her and took the chance, which allowed them to escape.

*nods* There are times when duty must come first, but there are also times when friendship and love will trump even duty. And then there are times like in Lifeline, where one must do one's duty because of friendship and love.

HELP!!!!!!

This conversation is sending a huge pack of plot bunnies my way. I'm being overrun!!!!

*snickers*

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

hey sparkies i'm back in business. got a brand spankin new laptop.

[mandogater]

I'll save you -goes Katniss Everdeen and shoots bows and arrows at the bunnies-

Thanks for the save, TLM!!!!

It was scaring there for a minute.

*Fires up BBQ* Anybody up for roasted bunny?

[Scary Kitty]

Thanks for the save, TLM!!!!

It was scaring there for a minute.

*Fires up BBQ* Anybody up for roasted bunny?

Sure! I've got lots of barbecue sauce!

[mandogater]

Sure! I've got lots of barbecue sauce!

* Starts handing out wants done*

A little OT

Spoiler:

I finally gave in and snagged Season 1 of Hell on Wheels on the cheap as a payday splurge. Planning a marathon over the weekend if none of the college football games can hold my interest.

[TheLadyMore]

Thanks for the save, TLM!!!!

It was scaring there for a minute.

*Fires up BBQ* Anybody up for roasted bunny?

-raises hand- might as well enjoy my Katniss handy work

[gateraid]

Re the off world convo going on:

In terms of authority, as has been said eloquently by others posters, he was letting her take the lead during Progeny. They both knew where the line was, and when the situation changed, she stepped back and let him do his job. As for how that mission was conducted, and everyone's behaviour towards Elizabeth, I guess it's a familiarity thing. When the big boss comes along, people will automatically treat her as being in charge, even if that isn't technically the case.

There are things that people have alluded to that I don't entirely agree with. Say, the "go" scene in Siege II. When you look at it objectively, he'd already made the decision to go. To me, that scene read as "this has to be done, I'm not asking for your permission, but I want you to agree". Had she said no, he still would have gone. By no means did she order him to go. The same with the Lifeline scene - she'd already made the decision and the "that's an order" was literally just a line. She was telling him that she was staying regardless, and that if he tried to intervene, he'd **** everything up (to put it bluntly).

Again, there's the Submersion Queen interrogation scene. I don't put a lot of stock in him letting her in the same room with Her Majesty, given that back in Allies they'd already let one into Weir's office (made me want to smash something when TPTW were waaaaing on about how 'strong' Carter was when she was talking to Todd in The Seer. In his cell. Saying virtually the same things Weir did. To The Queen). But in terms of trust and what he would let her do, it surprised me that he would let her roam around for so long (in the danger zone) instead of sending her back with the other scientists (who could potentially be used as human shields ). Had it come to it, that is probably the one time I could see him giving her a proper gun had the situation progressed any further (prior to them capturing the Queen).

Certainly, by the time s3 had rolled around, they had figured out what to do in terms of their working relationship. The latter s2 episodes prove this. Good grief - the CDT convos were par excellence for the demonstration of sharing the decision making. That isn't something I could see happen between any other leadership pairing on Stargate. One of my favourite lines of the series is in Allies (both the delivery and the line itself) - "you could be a little more chatty Elizabeth" just cracks me up. So inappropriate, but totally appropriate.

The mission to Taranis is pretty much how I envisioned her role when I heard about the series. Team Shep went out to a new planet, found some interesting stuff, and brought the boss in. She headed back to the city as soon as an issue arose that involved her area of responsibility (Atlantis, and the evacuation to it). Had they not been able to dial out, as Eri13 put it, it would have been 'his turn' and she'd have played a support-type role.

But I guess the point I probably should have tried to make in my original post was that slowly they'd moved past what is colloquially referred to as a ****ing contest in terms of their respective commands. After Hot Zone, they sort of melded into a collective mindset. After that, off the top of my head, I can only think of Irresistible (when she was clearly compromised) and First Strike where they blatantly disagreed on anything.

[Southern Red]

Thanks for the save, TLM!!!!

It was scaring there for a minute.

*Fires up BBQ* Anybody up for roasted bunny?

Can I make hasenpfeffer instead? It's supposed to rain here and won't be good for BBQing.

* Starts handing out wants done*

A little OT

Spoiler:

I finally gave in and snagged Season 1 of Hell on Wheels on the cheap as a payday splurge. Planning a marathon over the weekend if none of the college football games can hold my interest.

Oh, you will love it. I hope. We converted my BFF when she was here last week. This bit occurred during the show. Being a guy you may not get this, and Mr. SR remains totally clueless.

Spoiler:

BFF: That's Mr. Bohannan? Hmmm.
SR: Yep, that's him. Heh.
Mr. SR: I wish he'd get a haircut.
BFF: Guh. *gives SR a look*
SR: Heh.

Oh, and Gateraid I want to reply to your great post but I must save it for later.

[Scary Kitty]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Sparky!Family and COLLEGE FOOTBALL Saturday! Good luck to everyone's teams, and may we all find as much enjoyment in the game as John does!

gateraid, your post was fabulous. I think you said everything far more eloquently than I did. A couple of things stood out:

There are things that people have alluded to that I don't entirely agree with. Say, the "go" scene in Siege II. When you look at it objectively, he'd already made the decision to go. To me, that scene read as "this has to be done, I'm not asking for your permission, but I want you to agree". Had she said no, he still would have gone. By no means did she order him to go. The same with the Lifeline scene - she'd already made the decision and the "that's an order" was literally just a line. She was telling him that she was staying regardless, and that if he tried to intervene, he'd **** everything up (to put it bluntly).

Yeah, neither one is really asking for the other's permission to proceed in those two cases. It's, as you put it, "this has to be done..."

But I guess the point I probably should have tried to make in my original post was that slowly they'd moved past what is colloquially referred to as a ****ing contest in terms of their respective commands. After Hot Zone, they sort of melded into a collective mindset. After that, off the top of my head, I can only think of Irresistible (when she was clearly compromised) and First Strike where they blatantly disagreed on anything.

That, I think, is the key to that development in their working relationship. They've learned to stop butting heads and trying to be in charge all the time, and to start trusting each other's instincts and expertise in their respective fields. It's only in those particular moments that you've mentioned that they're out of sync with each other that things go catastrophically wrong. (though at least in the case of Irresistible, the damage wasn't permanent)

Oh, you will love it. I hope. We converted my BFF when she was here last week. This bit occurred during the show. Being a guy you may not get this, and Mr. SR remains totally clueless.

Spoiler:

BFF: That's Mr. Bohannan? Hmmm.
SR: Yep, that's him. Heh.
Mr. SR: I wish he'd get a haircut.
BFF: Guh. *gives SR a look*
SR: Heh.

[Southern Red]

Re the off world convo going on:

In terms of authority, as has been said eloquently by others posters, he was letting her take the lead during Progeny. They both knew where the line was, and when the situation changed, she stepped back and let him do his job. As for how that mission was conducted, and everyone's behaviour towards Elizabeth, I guess it's a familiarity thing. When the big boss comes along, people will automatically treat her as being in charge, even if that isn't technically the case.

There are things that people have alluded to that I don't entirely agree with. Say, the "go" scene in Siege II. When you look at it objectively, he'd already made the decision to go. To me, that scene read as "this has to be done, I'm not asking for your permission, but I want you to agree". Had she said no, he still would have gone. By no means did she order him to go. The same with the Lifeline scene - she'd already made the decision and the "that's an order" was literally just a line. She was telling him that she was staying regardless, and that if he tried to intervene, he'd **** everything up (to put it bluntly).

Very good points. Again, both of these back up our talk about how they must have discussed how they would let each other make the final decision on what happens to them. He wasn't asking for permission but he did need her approval. That's why I think it hurt him so much in FS when she withheld it. And then in Lifeline. she knew that ordering him was just words but she also knew he would remember to honor her wishes. And for certain, if Ronon hadn't pulled him away, he would not have left her.

Again, there's the Submersion Queen interrogation scene. I don't put a lot of stock in him letting her in the same room with Her Majesty, given that back in Allies they'd already let one into Weir's office (made me want to smash something when TPTW were waaaaing on about how 'strong' Carter was when she was talking to Todd in The Seer. In his cell. Saying virtually the same things Weir did. To The Queen). But in terms of trust and what he would let her do, it surprised me that he would let her roam around for so long (in the danger zone) instead of sending her back with the other scientists (who could potentially be used as human shields ). Had it come to it, that is probably the one time I could see him giving her a proper gun had the situation progressed any further (prior to them capturing the Queen).

Who wrote Submersion? It doesn't say on the episode page. The ease with which she goes along and everyone accepts her shows that it's not uncommon. I loved the mom and dad take the kids on a road trip parts but I also would have loved more concern from John, even though I don't think she went anywhere without him until the very end when the danger was gone. I totally agree 1000% on Carter.

Certainly, by the time s3 had rolled around, they had figured out what to do in terms of their working relationship. The latter s2 episodes prove this. Good grief - the CDT convos were par excellence for the demonstration of sharing the decision making. That isn't something I could see happen between any other leadership pairing on Stargate. One of my favourite lines of the series is in Allies (both the delivery and the line itself) - "you could be a little more chatty Elizabeth" just cracks me up. So inappropriate, but totally appropriate.

They were so in sync in S3 it was like they were one mind. Until FS, which made their disagreement all the more shocking and angsty.

The mission to Taranis is pretty much how I envisioned her role when I heard about the series. Team Shep went out to a new planet, found some interesting stuff, and brought the boss in. She headed back to the city as soon as an issue arose that involved her area of responsibility (Atlantis, and the evacuation to it). Had they not been able to dial out, as Eri13 put it, it would have been 'his turn' and she'd have played a support-type role.

But I guess the point I probably should have tried to make in my original post was that slowly they'd moved past what is colloquially referred to as a ****ing contest in terms of their respective commands. After Hot Zone, they sort of melded into a collective mindset. After that, off the top of my head, I can only think of Irresistible (when she was clearly compromised) and First Strike where they blatantly disagreed on anything.

All of this is also very true. It may be my shippy prejudice but I never saw any sort of friendship between John and Carter. No matter how much she called him by his first name or ate with the team, it just wasn't there. Maybe because she was military, but I just always felt a distance between them. It would have been very unlikely that they would have become friends so quickly and the part where they had him declare he respected her more than any other CO, even though that would not have included Elizabeth, just made me wonder if a certain writer had been paying attention at all. But then I wondered that a lot.

[ShWeir]

Spoiler:

BFF: That's Mr. Bohannan? Hmmm.
SR: Yep, that's him. Heh.
Mr. SR: I wish he'd get a haircut.
BFF: Guh. *gives SR a look*
SR: Heh.

Spoiler:

Bohannan! So close! My last name's Bohanna!

[Ankareeda]

A pic from Dragon Con, Joe and Torri are sitting next to each other.

http://johnnynva.tumblr.com/post/306...flanigan-torri

*bounces*

[Brie]

A pic from Dragon Con, Joe and Torri are sitting next to each other.

http://johnnynva.tumblr.com/post/306...flanigan-torri

*bounces*

Eeep! Yay, love seeing all of them really (though especially Joe and Torri). Thanks for bring it over and hopefully we’ll get tons more stuff later on and I’ve got to admit that I do hope we’ll get to hear something from these panels (again, especially because of Joe and Torri). I'm also throwing in how good they all look there, so much hotness in one place can't be good for the ozon though.

[Southern Red]

A pic from Dragon Con, Joe and Torri are sitting next to each other.

http://johnnynva.tumblr.com/post/306...flanigan-torri
E
*bounces*

SQUEEEEE! Want details now!