Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[gateraid]

Preach it, Brother!

What annoys me the most out of that whole scenario is that one has to be a member of GW (or any other internet fandom) to fully understand it. This tells me they were never interested in the casual viewer, no matter how much they said they were.

I don't see John as being immature. I think reckless fits but considering what he went through in Afghanistan, I wouldn't call him immature. His silliness and humor IMHO is just part of his personality but when it comes right down to it, he's very focused and mature. I think he just thought he'd be able to push back against Elizabeth like he did all his other bosses. Look at how snarky he was with Sumner. He thought Elizabeth would look at him the same way all the others did and he was willing to live up or down to her expectations. I imagine he was the most surprised person around when she started to trust him. Think about the last scene in the pilot when she told him to choose his team. Total shock on his face.

ITA with this. They'd have pushed him out if he didn't at least show some promise as an officer. The snarking, the joking, the carefree attitude...was all superficial. If we were to take that at face value, he'd never have bothered to rescue Sumner, nor would he care about Ford or Teyla. I wouldn't be so arrogant to presume I'm anything like Sheppard, but that rising argument is vintage we-don't-know-each-other-yet.

I still think there should've been more hostility toward Carter when she showed up as Elizabeth's official replacement. First there's their own past history of conflict, then Carter doesn't even deign to make even a general mention of Atlantis's recent losses in her "hi, I'm your new boss!" speech (because hey, in addition to Elizabeth's capture, people actually DIED during the escape from the Asurans), and the fact that the only reason she's there at all is because the military frakked up with a bogus attack plan that only stirred up the hornets' nest. For all the talk that TPTW made in Season 1 about wanting to see civilian vs. military conflict, they had a brilliant opportunity to do it here. And blew it. Again.

I think....

* Carter should have been in command of the Apollo during FS. They could have even played up the New Order thing (even though I personally don't believe it was a threat in any sense of the word). Imagine if the John/Ellis => John/Carter convo had been about how she'd been selected to go on the original mission. Ouch.

* Have the Apollo find Atlantis at the end of Adrift, with Carter taking command

* Carter approves the heist mission. A "you're not military, you're not trained to go on this type of mission/needs must etc" convo might've been interesting

* Lifeline finishes with Atlantis still in space. Sheppard and team suit up to head back out to 'rescue' Weir. Carter says no - foolish, security risk...etc. roll credits

* They're still repairing Atlantis during Reunion, it lands during the episode. Carter and co rescue Shep and Ronon, then at the end she informs him she's been recalled back to Earth and he's in Acting Command. She asks if she can trust him not to do anything stupid (referring to the rescue that she/Landry nixed)

^ that's easy to say with the benefit of hindsight. However, it proves there were other options than the one they chose

I've never heard the convos in "Rising" and "Reunion" compared before, but they are similar, good point. Except that in "Rising", John was this immature, reckless major who was suddenly the ranking military officer and tried pulling it over Elizabeth's authority. In "Reunion", he had grown. Granted, I'm head-scratching at the "why did he listen to the IOA" point too ...

The Rising/Reunion comparison was the first thing that leapt to mind when I first viewed it. It also struck me as odd that Carter of all people was the one to rule out any rescue. Mind you, if it had truly been weeks, I probably would have ruled it out too because by that stage it was highly likely Weir had been killed (I'm serious - it couldn't have been too difficult to upload the info in her head given her nanites - pretty much like copying a hard drive)

On a happy sidenote: I ordered "Casualties of War". Should be here in a week!

I've heard it's good

I want to write... but can't... but really want to... but can't...

You've just described me with my many uncompleted fanfics

Let's see:

1) my 3D-teacher who suddenly changed the deadline for our exams and thus threw all of our schedules upside down and in complete disarray (sp?) - chaos ensues and stresslevels are off the chart

This puts my muse on edge.

2) I'm drowning in work at work that isn't mine, while my work piles up to the ceiling. And thus someone's going to have to complain about it next week that I'm not getting my work done.

This my muse tries to fix by giving my ideas to write... however when I point her in the direction of the fic in progress she's suddenly AWOL.

3) The distinct lack of fandom's attention to the female characters (my ever returning fandom petpeeve).

My muse again pushes me towards fanfic to write but as above... As soon as I open my fic, muse is nowhere in sight.

4) I have a cousin for whom I need to design a monopoly-game board for her exam assignment for her Dutch class. I promised another friend to read her thesis (something to do with Fanfiction and how it relates to literature or something like it) and I have artwork to touch-up and post for the reverse-bang this year for which I still need to preview the fic that was written with my artwork as inspiration.

This sends both me and my muse's stress-levels through the roof... cause no time to do so.

5) Also, I won't make it to the post-a-thon on Sunday for obvious reasons (see point 1 & 4).

6) ... and I miss Kate.

Blah... I feel a bit like this brave knight here
It seems photobucket is currently on the fritz, feeling much like I do and not showing pictures - damn it!

(((hugs))) RL sucks sometimes

[ShipperWriter]

What annoys me the most out of that whole scenario is that one has to be a member of GW (or any other internet fandom) to fully understand it. This tells me they were never interested in the casual viewer, no matter how much they said they were.

Ain't that the truth.

ITA with this. They'd have pushed him out if he didn't at least show some promise as an officer. The snarking, the joking, the carefree attitude...was all superficial. If we were to take that at face value, he'd never have bothered to rescue Sumner, nor would he care about Ford or Teyla. I wouldn't be so arrogant to presume I'm anything like Sheppard, but that rising argument is vintage we-don't-know-each-other-yet.

Yeah, you're right. He was testing the waters, so to speak.

And that "Rising" argument is one of the best John/Elizabeth scenes. Ever.

I think....

* Carter should have been in command of the Apollo during FS. They could have even played up the New Order thing (even though I personally don't believe it was a threat in any sense of the word). Imagine if the John/Ellis => John/Carter convo had been about how she'd been selected to go on the original mission. Ouch.

* Have the Apollo find Atlantis at the end of Adrift, with Carter taking command

* Carter approves the heist mission. A "you're not military, you're not trained to go on this type of mission/needs must etc" convo might've been interesting

* Lifeline finishes with Atlantis still in space. Sheppard and team suit up to head back out to 'rescue' Weir. Carter says no - foolish, security risk...etc. roll credits

* They're still repairing Atlantis during Reunion, it lands during the episode. Carter and co rescue Shep and Ronon, then at the end she informs him she's been recalled back to Earth and he's in Acting Command. She asks if she can trust him not to do anything stupid (referring to the rescue that she/Landry nixed)

^ that's easy to say with the benefit of hindsight. However, it proves there were other options than the one they chose

There were a ton of options they could have chosen! Ronan could've thrown himself in front of Elizabeth or pulled her away from the windows. Again, a fic I read.

So they raid Asuras, get the ZPM, lose Elizabeth, but then Carter tells John and Co. that they can't go rescue her, but then during "Reunion" Shep and Ronan are getting rescued ... ... I think I missed something ...

The Rising/Reunion comparison was the first thing that leapt to mind when I first viewed it. It also struck me as odd that Carter of all people was the one to rule out any rescue. Mind you, if it had truly been weeks, I probably would have ruled it out too because by that stage it was highly likely Weir had been killed (I'm serious - it couldn't have been too difficult to upload the info in her head given her nanites - pretty much like copying a hard drive)

I could understand if she was stuck in the same position as Elizabeth, having to follow all of the orders from the IOA, but yeah, still strange. Keeping in mind, when Jack was stuck offworld in "A Hundred Days", she worked tirelessly to get him back. *sighs* Why you no makee sense???

Hmm. Eyes are hurting. Think I need a computer break. Be back in a bit.

[Southern Red]

Heh. Think of how many problems would be solved if we were fire breathing dragons.

For example: Kavanaugh-kabob.

Anyhow. I randomly picked an episode to watch and went with "Runner" since I'd never seen it before (). Going back to our discussion about John and his "no one left behind" stance, I thought it was interesting how gung-ho he was on finding Ford and bringing him home, and Caldwell basically ripped him a new one. Granted, they had proof that Ford was there, ie bullet ridden Wraith, but for having only been on Atlantis together for one year, and to be that determined ... then to turn around two years later, with Elizabeth becoming MIA, and dropping it?

Yeah. I don't know. It's giving me a headache just thinking about it!

But I found some nice Sparky shots at the end of the eppy. Here's one:

Spoiler:

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/...03runner-1.png

Love that shot of them communicating without even looking at each other.

You all are making way too much sense by the way.

And on Kavanaugh, my new CL fic has her sharing some thoughts on him. I think you'll like it. Though I'm not sure she'd tolerate a food fight.

[Scary Kitty]

Let's see:

1) my 3D-teacher who suddenly changed the deadline for our exams and thus threw all of our schedules upside down and in complete disarray (sp?) - chaos ensues and stresslevels are off the chart

This puts my muse on edge.

2) I'm drowning in work at work that isn't mine, while my work piles up to the ceiling. And thus someone's going to have to complain about it next week that I'm not getting my work done.

This my muse tries to fix by giving my ideas to write... however when I point her in the direction of the fic in progress she's suddenly AWOL.

3) The distinct lack of fandom's attention to the female characters (my ever returning fandom petpeeve).

My muse again pushes me towards fanfic to write but as above... As soon as I open my fic, muse is nowhere in sight.

4) I have a cousin for whom I need to design a monopoly-game board for her exam assignment for her Dutch class. I promised another friend to read her thesis (something to do with Fanfiction and how it relates to literature or something like it) and I have artwork to touch-up and post for the reverse-bang this year for which I still need to preview the fic that was written with my artwork as inspiration.

This sends both me and my muse's stress-levels through the roof... cause no time to do so.

5) Also, I won't make it to the post-a-thon on Sunday for obvious reasons (see point 1 & 4).

6) ... and I miss Kate.

Geeze, that is utterly sucktastic! *huggles and sends some sugar*

ShipperWriter, go get the pitchforks and gasoline. I've got the torches and the beer. It's time to go do some virtual war upon Falcon Horus's enemies!

Blah... I feel a bit like this brave knight here
It seems photobucket is currently on the fritz, feeling much like I do and not showing pictures - damn it!

I can see it just fine. Really cute! SW is right about all of us having been that knight at one time or another... there have been lots of times when I would've preferred to be the dragon.

We? No. You? Yes.

*snickers*

Heh. Think of how many problems would be solved if we were fire breathing dragons.

For example: Kavanaugh-kabob.

Heck, TPTW-kabob.

I think....

* Carter should have been in command of the Apollo during FS. They could have even played up the New Order thing (even though I personally don't believe it was a threat in any sense of the word). Imagine if the John/Ellis => John/Carter convo had been about how she'd been selected to go on the original mission. Ouch.

That would've been delicious. I agree that the New Order thing was never truly a threat; really, it's more of a source of tension between the "Atlantis" and "Earth" camps. But then, I've always liked the idea of an Atlantis vs. Earth kind of conflict on the show.

* Have the Apollo find Atlantis at the end of Adrift, with Carter taking command

* Carter approves the heist mission. A "you're not military, you're not trained to go on this type of mission/needs must etc" convo might've been interesting

* Lifeline finishes with Atlantis still in space. Sheppard and team suit up to head back out to 'rescue' Weir. Carter says no - foolish, security risk...etc. roll credits

* They're still repairing Atlantis during Reunion, it lands during the episode. Carter and co rescue Shep and Ronon, then at the end she informs him she's been recalled back to Earth and he's in Acting Command. She asks if she can trust him not to do anything stupid (referring to the rescue that she/Landry nixed)

^ that's easy to say with the benefit of hindsight. However, it proves there were other options than the one they chose

Indeed, and I think this scenario definitely would've helped to play up that Atlantis vs. Earth conflict I so love.

The Rising/Reunion comparison was the first thing that leapt to mind when I first viewed it. It also struck me as odd that Carter of all people was the one to rule out any rescue.

Indeed, Carter's certainly been at the center of plenty of crazy-ass rescue missions in the past that she should've been made to look a little more sympathetic than she was. Including New Order's trip to enlist Asgard help for O'Neill...

Mind you, if it had truly been weeks, I probably would have ruled it out too because by that stage it was highly likely Weir had been killed (I'm serious - it couldn't have been too difficult to upload the info in her head given her nanites - pretty much like copying a hard drive)

I have to agree, that's certainly what conventional wisdom would dictate.

On the other hand... Weir was able to get into Oberoth's head and pull a major fake out on him on his own home ground, however briefly. If she did it once, who's to say that she couldn't do it again? Withhold information, give false information, run Oberoth's mind probes around in circles. And that's just the mental mind tricks. Her physical body, the merging of nanites and human tissue, would be valuable for study. And there's only so many experiments you can run on a corpse. If you really think about it, she's far more valuable to the Replicators alive than dead. No matter what faction of the Replicators we're talking about. Food for thought, eh?

[ShipperWriter]

Love that shot of them communicating without even looking at each other.

You all are making way too much sense by the way.

And on Kavanaugh, my new CL fic has her sharing some thoughts on him. I think you'll like it. Though I'm not sure she'd tolerate a food fight.

Even when they're not looking at each other, they still have eye!sex.

My apologies to CL. I'll clean up the mess I make.

Geeze, that is utterly sucktastic! *huggles and sends some sugar*

ShipperWriter, go get the pitchforks and gasoline. I've got the torches and the beer. It's time to go do some virtual war upon Falcon Horus's enemies!

Can I do it tomorrow? I have a massive headache that isn't going away ...

But for now: *virtually sporks everyone who's annoying FH*

I can see it just fine. Really cute! SW is right about all of us having been that knight at one time or another... there have been lots of times when I would've preferred to be the dragon.

*snickers*

Heck, TPTW-kabob.

*snorts* Now why didn't I think of that???

That would've been delicious. I agree that the New Order thing was never truly a threat; really, it's more of a source of tension between the "Atlantis" and "Earth" camps. But then, I've always liked the idea of an Atlantis vs. Earth kind of conflict on the show.

Indeed, and I think this scenario definitely would've helped to play up that Atlantis vs. Earth conflict I so love.

I always write off the way that Weir acted in "New Order" for some reason. Should probably go rewatch it ...

Indeed, Carter's certainly been at the center of plenty of crazy-ass rescue missions in the past that she should've been made to look a little more sympathetic than she was. Including New Order's trip to enlist Asgard help for O'Neill...

Uh-huh. Prime example right there. They traveled to another galaxy to save Jack! So why couldn't John be given the chance to go Rambo on the Replicators?

Oh crap. There's another crack fic in the making.

I have to agree, that's certainly what conventional wisdom would dictate.

On the other hand... Weir was able to get into Oberoth's head and pull a major fake out on him on his own home ground, however briefly. If she did it once, who's to say that she couldn't do it again? Withhold information, give false information, run Oberoth's mind probes around in circles. And that's just the mental mind tricks. Her physical body, the merging of nanites and human tissue, would be valuable for study. And there's only so many experiments you can run on a corpse. If you really think about it, she's far more valuable to the Replicators alive than dead. No matter what faction of the Replicators we're talking about. Food for thought, eh?

The girl's got mad skillz.

But too much "food for thought" tonight. Desperately need some sleep. Got a lot to do tomorrow, now that my Saturday night is busy, thank you, rain!

Night!

[mandogater]

Thanks to Joe indeed. He even said that they were going to just ignore her and he insisted they include something. It just works in our favor that it was John who said something and showed the most grief. And it makes it even more of a glaring error that Rodney didn't. The only other thing I can think of is the moment when Clone!Carson asks about her, but even then they don't do into detail or show him reacting.

Sorry, but I disagree here. The whole underlying theme of this show was not to leave anyone behind along with John disobeying orders. Now suddenly we had him following orders not to rescue her. Inconsistent and OOC, IMHO.

Everything that went down concerning Elizabeth in Season 4 and 5 always drove me batty. It was almost like TPTW and the writers all pulled a Jedi mind trick on the cast and characters. "You will forget about Elizabeth." *Waves hand like Jedi*

Thank every deity ever worshipped on this planet for Joe and his acting ability!!

I totally agree with gateraid as well. A Show bible would have done wonders for preventing a lot of the inconsistency.

[mandogater]

The drinking starts after the graduation ceremony tonight. *smirk* As for the party, it's always goin' on here!

As for the "Welcome to Fandom Reality" party, I'm starting it now.

And that my dear SW, is why I like it here so much.

[mandogater]

I want to write... but can't... but really want to... but can't...

*Sends Kate with bowl of sugar for the Lemming and carrot cake for the plot bunnies*

*Joins SK and SW in witch hunt for enemies of FH's sanity*

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

I think....

* Carter should have been in command of the Apollo during FS. They could have even played up the New Order thing (even though I personally don't believe it was a threat in any sense of the word). Imagine if the John/Ellis => John/Carter convo had been about how she'd been selected to go on the original mission. Ouch.

* Have the Apollo find Atlantis at the end of Adrift, with Carter taking command

* Carter approves the heist mission. A "you're not military, you're not trained to go on this type of mission/needs must etc" convo might've been interesting

* Lifeline finishes with Atlantis still in space. Sheppard and team suit up to head back out to 'rescue' Weir. Carter says no - foolish, security risk...etc. roll credits

* They're still repairing Atlantis during Reunion, it lands during the episode. Carter and co rescue Shep and Ronon, then at the end she informs him she's been recalled back to Earth and he's in Acting Command. She asks if she can trust him not to do anything stupid (referring to the rescue that she/Landry nixed)

^ that's easy to say with the benefit of hindsight. However, it proves there were other options than the one they chose

sounds like a good idea for a fan fic.

[Falcon Horus]

*Joins SK and SW in witch hunt for enemies of FH's sanity*

My sanity is beyond saving, but that's okay... I kinda like it that way.

sounds like a good idea for a fan fic.

I was thinking the same thing - I'll forward some of those carrots Mandogater just send me.

[Southern Red]

Good day so far. Home Depot was all out of the deck furniture we wanted, so they sold Mr. SR the floor model. ALREADY PUT TOGETHER AT A 10% DISCOUNT! Score! I love it when a plan comes together. I was not looking forward to that assembly job.

And to be even a bit on topic, do we know if John is good with his hands? Not like that, OMG I can imagine him trying to assemble something with limited tools and Rodney's help. Now that would be high-larious.

[Scary Kitty]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Sparky!Family Saturday!

My sanity is beyond saving, but that's okay... I kinda like it that way.

I think all of our sanity is beyond saving. So you're in good company!

Good day so far. Home Depot was all out of the deck furniture we wanted, so they sold Mr. SR the floor model. ALREADY PUT TOGETHER AT A 10% DISCOUNT! Score! I love it when a plan comes together. I was not looking forward to that assembly job.

And to be even a bit on topic, do we know if John is good with his hands? Not like that, OMG I can imagine him trying to assemble something with limited tools and Rodney's help. Now that would be high-larious.

Yay, discount! It's so awesome when that happens.

Is John good at putting stuff together? ('cause yeah, we totally know he's good with his hands in that other department ) Well, we did see him working that welding torch in The Ark. (and oh my, was that hot, or what? ) So yeah, I think he might... have some skill.

[Southern Red]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Sparky!Family Saturday!



I think all of our sanity is beyond saving. So you're in good company!



Yay, discount! It's so awesome when that happens.

Is John good at putting stuff together? ('cause yeah, we totally know he's good with his hands in that other department ) Well, we did see him working that welding torch in The Ark. (and oh my, was that hot, or what? ) So yeah, I think he might... have some skill.

Oh you're right. He did look pretty natural with that torch, didn't he? And also digging in the dirt in The Brotherhood.

[Falcon Horus]

I just accidentily deleted a weekend's worth of exam work...
It is just my luck that it isn't due until next week so plenty of time to redo three days of work. Unfortunately that which is due wednesday evening is not moving so well... I'll have to forego sleep today - will need coffee to accomplish that.

[Southern Red]

I just accidentily deleted a weekend's worth of exam work...
It is just my luck that it isn't due until next week so plenty of time to redo three days of work. Unfortunately that which is due wednesday evening is not moving so well... I'll have to forego sleep today - will need coffee to accomplish that.

Oh my gosh. ((hugs))