Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Brie]

Writing for everybody is tough, and I really admire the writers who can successfully pull it off. I'm not comfortable writing for everyone in Atlantis. Sometimes, I reread and edit fics so much that chunks get taken out.

I agree with this, it’s really hard, and I guess it’s easy to say that they should have done this and that and wishing for a bit more balance in the writing (maybe a bit more balance in the writers ). I have to say that that some of my favorite episodes where the once where every character got their fair share of screen time ie. ‘Rising’, ‘The Storm’, ‘the eye’, ‘coup d’etat’, ‘Echoes’, ‘Submersion’ to name a few and I guess it’s a good thing that they didn’t have more than 6 main characters at the time + the recurring secondary characters, I can’t help but wonder how they would have done if the show had a cast list like ‘Lost’, ‘True Blood’ and ‘Game of Thrones’.


Goodnight SW! I should be heading of too soon.

[Scary Kitty]

Thanks!

And ooh ... thanks for the inspiration ... if it turns up in a fic, I'll be sure to credit you.

Heh!

Anyhow, this is kinda interesting, in conjunction with a plotline of mine that's currently simmering on the back burner of my mind:

Before Atlantis was cancelled, Carl Binder intended to write an episode that brought back Elizabeth Weir once again in the show's sixth season, according to Mallozzi.

"The reason we brought back the Weir character was in order to tell a story -- potentially a series of stories -- that fans of the character would enjoy. While I think closure it certainly nice, I'd argue that fans would have preferred to leave the door open and seen the character make multiple reappearances rather than ending Weir's story. For instance, the scenario ... 'Team Sheppard successfully rescues Weir and brings her home to Atlantis to recover and rejoin the team?' is not a conclusive end to the storyline but a continuation in a different creative direction.

"In my mind, the original Weir was not destroyed (as the human form Replicators would have us believe). Her body was kept 'on ice' somewhere to serve as a prototype for future study. At the time I wrote 'This Mortal Coil,' I imagined a future storyline that would have involved the team learning of Weir's fate and launching a rescue op. They would have retrieved her and, in the end, Elizabeth would have headed back to Earth for some R&R, leaving the door open for future guest appearances."
(Executive producer Joseph Mallozzi, in a post at his blog)

It's very similar to the storyline that I'm working on after M51-936 gets completed and I start on the AU HS fic (which still doesn't have a title, so if anyone wants to offer a suggestion, I'll gladly consider it!). But the big difference? This one will actually come to fruition.

Interesting. That's a little more detail than I'd heard before (the bits about the team actually successfully rescuing the real Elizabeth and all that) about the "idea" for how the Weir-Replicator storyline might have further developed beyond Season 5. Definitely fits right in with the other tidbits Mallozzi had previously hinted at. *sighs* I just can't totally hate the guy if he's actually going to be sane and rational like this, I really can't.

It's like a remark that Torri made at a con one time, which one, I don't recall at the moment, but she said, "Elizabeth had a huge crush on Sheppard." Good, strong friendships make for a strong romantic, personal, intimate attachment.

Maybe that's why I like Sparky so much. They started out as friends, not immediately jumping into bed together like some other ships on TV nowadays. It was a real relationships, with their ups and downs, and their good days and their bad days. But it was real. *nods*

I seem to recall that Torri has said a number of times (when asked) that Elizabeth was definitely attracted to John. And who wouldn't be?

And yes, I think that's why a lot of us like Sparky, because it feels so much more realistic than some of the cliché-ridden ships that have sprung up in this fandom.

Remind me again, where did Carl Binder stand, in regards to Sparky? I swear, my brain is the size of a peanut, sometimes ...

We never got any solid statement from Carl as to what ship he supported, but based on the episodes he wrote, he seemed to hint pretty strongly in favor of Sparky. Hence the phrase, "In Binder We Trust."

well it’s kind of sad that they didn’t get the happy ending they deserved with Elizabeth trapped in another body floating around in space and John being all alone while everyone else find someone to share their lives with, it’s all just really sad because the two of them I felt deserved to be together in the end

I am reminded of the moment when I asked Joe Flanigan at the Creation con at LAX in 2009 about how it was too bad that Sheppard never got to "save the girl and get the girl" with Elizabeth, and how he turned those oh-so-sad woobie puppy eyes on me and told me how great that would've been and how much he missed Torri, and all that. *sighs*

And the reaction to that spawned a certain fanfic series that WILL be finished one day, darnitall. *cough*Atlantis Rising*coughcough*

I enjoyed what Mallozzi wrote (even if I’m hearing so many different things from him I fear that I’m going to get some kind of whiplash injury from all of them)

LOL. You and me both.

[Brie]

[QUOTE=Scary Kitty;13349501I seem to recall that Torri has said a number of times (when asked) that Elizabeth was definitely attracted to John. And who wouldn't be? [/QUOTE]

Haha, I bet she was and who can blame her, and John had an obvious crush on her as well and that whole thing is something that still lives on and is a big part of the reason why we’re still here.


[QUOTE=Scary Kitty;13349501I am reminded of the moment when I asked Joe Flanigan at the Creation con at LAX in 2009 about how it was too bad that Sheppard never got to "save the girl and get the girl" with Elizabeth, and how he turned those oh-so-sad woobie puppy eyes on me and told me how great that would've been and how much he missed Torri, and all that. *sighs* [/QUOTE]

Haha, that’s awesome, I love con stories because the questions are usually better then what many journalists ask and the actors are usually more open and honest with their answers and I don’t doubt that Torri’s and Elizabeth’s presence was very important to the cast as well since it was obvious to us that things didn’t feel quite the same after she left. It makes me thin especially on Rainbows video diary from the set and the way he spoke about everyone but especially what he said about Torri stood out to me, it was something like:

“Torri Higginson is just wonderful to be around, just always looking out for us as individuals and caring if I need a little extra help with this or to get here with a scene or doing lunch. She is always there and she’s great to. She is always in the scene looking right into your eyes and sometimes you’re scared, scared of her eyes but she is right there…”

I just loved that and all the video shots they showed of her. I still have high hopes to see more of her on TV or somehwere else soon.

[pkprd869]

Evenin sparkies. FH *sets down big-ol-honkin-sack-o-sugar for our lemming* Sorry bout your trip. I work in a union shop also, we have a certain amount of call offs before we get in trouble. I had to call off because I got scheduled for shift coverage (not my own shift mind you) because I was getting my tattoo done that day. Maybe you could just pick up the phone and say personal day and leave it at that?

SW you dirty dirty... girl? Sorry, I'm kind of new again. Binder seemed to support sparky. I agree with you and SK research is important. I did watch a few episodes to prepare for Todd and the gang's exchange in my fic. I hope I got all the continuity right. If I make a mistake in back canon in any story point it out. I don't mid fixing it because I want it to be right. And I do have problems writing certain folks too. Teyla gives me fits. I like Teyla, it's hard to bring out her calm not blow up everything personality and maternal instincts while not being a mother hen. The guys are easy for me to write, because I am a guy I guess. Plus I have a super secret technique I may share later

Brie I always noticed how Shep would always say "I" when talking about Lizzie. For a team oriented guy to keep say that speaks volumes.

edit: Thanks for all the compliments! I'll keep the story going!

[Nolamom]

A couple of sparky gifs

[mandogater]

As far as I know she's only ever appeared at one convention, Dragon Con 2006 (I think - Don Davis was still alive cause he was on that panel too). And that's it, so I'm not keeping my hopes up there.

It would of course be cool to meet her ... and I'd be a puddle of goo and totally incoherent... but I doubt that'll happen unless there's a con-organizer out there whom could be convinced to invite the Atlantis angels (my version). I doubt it though...

Quite honestly, I don't know anyone who has met her... except for the people who were at that panel of course.

Well that just sucks. Maybe she hates crowds? I can see how that could freak some people out.

Turning into a totally incoherent puddle of goo isn't all bad. It happened to me when I met my favorite hockey at the time a couple of years ago. And I'm back to my sane self. Mostly.

[mandogater]

A couple of sparky gifs

I LOVE them, Nolamom!!! Did you find them someplace or make them yourself?

[Nolamom]

I make them. There's a bunch that I've posted starting about here on zuz's thread

[mandogater]

I make them. There's a bunch that I've posted starting about here on zuz's thread

Thanks for the link!!!

You are very talented, Nolamom.

[Infinite-Possibilities]

I believe I saw both her and Torri interviewed in a documentary about sci-fi conventions (they were at one) that apparently came out a few years ago.

[Southern Red]

Yeah, and if it wasn’t so sad it would almost be funny how obvious most of the writers were to it and it’s never going to stop fascinate me since for me it just feels and looks so obvious, and yeah, I would get it if it was just acted that way and there weren’t so many scenes like this one however since we know that there were a lot of times when the writers didn’t seem to agree with each other on things I do bet that they saw it but maybe they didn’t want to see it so they ignored it, it didn’t work but since, like have been said here before, we know how TPPT sometimes wrote different relationships maybe it was better that they did leave it alone, I dunno, I guess I’ve just been spoiled when it comes to especially other shows because you’re so used to the characters on those shows to eventually get together if they have such great chemistry as the one between John and Elizabeth, well it’s kind of sad that they didn’t get the happy ending they deserved with Elizabeth trapped in another body floating around in space and John being all alone while everyone else find someone to share their lives with, it’s all just really sad because the two of them I felt deserved to be together in the end…and I’m not one of those people who needs to have everything being rainbows and flowers but I just meant that after everything they had been through (together) and everything they had sacrificed for others it would have been nice to have seen them together in the end, well, that’s how I feel anyway and I guess if you’re a part of another fandom you see things differently.




I know what you mean.
I’m curies about that last thing too, I mean you get some feeling when you watch the episodes he wrote but I do wonder if he ever talked about it. Your earlier post was great and I enjoyed what Mallozzi wrote (even if I’m hearing so many different things from him I fear that I’m going to get some kind of whiplash injury from all of them) but he also mentioned that it was Carl that wanted to write that episode, well, either way I especially liked Carl’s work because he wrote a lot for the women of Atlantis, and I especially loved the way he wrote for Elizabeth’s character.

It really is puzzling to watch the show and then hear the writers deny there would ever be anything between John and Elizabeth We still don't know the origin of that idea, but I'm guessing it had to be with Brad and/or Rob. They all knew about us and even replied to our questions at times, always saying that there could never be anything between them because she is his boss. I think you just had a bunch of people locked into an idea and not able to see how much better it could have been if done differently. I do know that on the commentary for Coup d'Etat, Gero and whoever else joke about them not being able to keep their hands off each other after the desk sitting scene. It was hard not to think that they had a master plan and were just keeping it a secret.

I agree with this, it’s really hard, and I guess it’s easy to say that they should have done this and that and wishing for a bit more balance in the writing (maybe a bit more balance in the writers ). I have to say that that some of my favorite episodes where the once where every character got their fair share of screen time ie. ‘Rising’, ‘The Storm’, ‘the eye’, ‘coup d’etat’, ‘Echoes’, ‘Submersion’ to name a few and I guess it’s a good thing that they didn’t have more than 6 main characters at the time + the recurring secondary characters, I can’t help but wonder how they would have done if the show had a cast list like ‘Lost’, ‘True Blood’ and ‘Game of Thrones’.


Goodnight SW! I should be heading of too soon.

I am one of a small minority of people who think that there did not need to be complete balance between the characters. Ensemble shows as a rule have an ep here and there that focuses on someone other than the main couple of characters. H50 and Bones come to mind, plus many others. I think these types of shows are different from shows like, for example, Lost, which are true ensembles without clear cut leads with the rest of the cast in major supporting roles. It may just be my perception, but I saw JF and DH as the leads. Everyone else had a slightly lesser part and were not intended to get equal treatment. I base this on the fact that those two actors were in every ep, even if only for a moment.

It has to do, not just with billing, but with contracts and how they are negotiated. David's "and" designation made him almost equal to Joe.

Heh!



Interesting. That's a little more detail than I'd heard before (the bits about the team actually successfully rescuing the real Elizabeth and all that) about the "idea" for how the Weir-Replicator storyline might have further developed beyond Season 5. Definitely fits right in with the other tidbits Mallozzi had previously hinted at. *sighs* I just can't totally hate the guy if he's actually going to be sane and rational like this, I really can't.



I seem to recall that Torri has said a number of times (when asked) that Elizabeth was definitely attracted to John. And who wouldn't be?

And yes, I think that's why a lot of us like Sparky, because it feels so much more realistic than some of the cliché-ridden ships that have sprung up in this fandom.



We never got any solid statement from Carl as to what ship he supported, but based on the episodes he wrote, he seemed to hint pretty strongly in favor of Sparky. Hence the phrase, "In Binder We Trust."



I am reminded of the moment when I asked Joe Flanigan at the Creation con at LAX in 2009 about how it was too bad that Sheppard never got to "save the girl and get the girl" with Elizabeth, and how he turned those oh-so-sad woobie puppy eyes on me and told me how great that would've been and how much he missed Torri, and all that. *sighs*

And the reaction to that spawned a certain fanfic series that WILL be finished one day, darnitall. *cough*Atlantis Rising*coughcough*



LOL. You and me both.

I had read that statement by JM when he first wrote it on his blog, but over the years the details had faded. That would indeed have been wonderful and would have shown the connection between them.

I hope your optimism on SGA-R is not misplaced, but right now, I would be embarrassed to report to Joe that we are close to failing him. I am very disappointed and get a sad woobie face of my own when I think about it.

A couple of sparky gifs

Thank you for sharing those. *snurches and runs*

[ShWeir]

Hey guys! How are we all today. I swear I'm boiling to death Anywho I'm bored so thought I should go on our Sparky forum!

[ShipperWriter]

Evenin sparkies. FH *sets down big-ol-honkin-sack-o-sugar for our lemming* Sorry bout your trip. I work in a union shop also, we have a certain amount of call offs before we get in trouble. I had to call off because I got scheduled for shift coverage (not my own shift mind you) because I was getting my tattoo done that day. Maybe you could just pick up the phone and say personal day and leave it at that?

SW you dirty dirty... girl? Sorry, I'm kind of new again. Binder seemed to support sparky. I agree with you and SK research is important. I did watch a few episodes to prepare for Todd and the gang's exchange in my fic. I hope I got all the continuity right. If I make a mistake in back canon in any story point it out. I don't mid fixing it because I want it to be right. And I do have problems writing certain folks too. Teyla gives me fits. I like Teyla, it's hard to bring out her calm not blow up everything personality and maternal instincts while not being a mother hen. The guys are easy for me to write, because I am a guy I guess. Plus I have a super secret technique I may share later

Brie I always noticed how Shep would always say "I" when talking about Lizzie. For a team oriented guy to keep say that speaks volumes.

edit: Thanks for all the compliments! I'll keep the story going!

Yep, I iz a gurl!

I could tell you did your research and you followed the series. When I can see the fic unfolding in my mind, almost as clearly as if it was on screen, I consider it a job well done!

A couple of sparky gifs http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j5...abeth_Love.gif

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j5...beth_Love2.gif

Hi, Nolamom, nice to see you! And thanks for the smilies! Can't get enough!

It really is puzzling to watch the show and then hear the writers deny there would ever be anything between John and Elizabeth We still don't know the origin of that idea, but I'm guessing it had to be with Brad and/or Rob. They all knew about us and even replied to our questions at times, always saying that there could never be anything between them because she is his boss. I think you just had a bunch of people locked into an idea and not able to see how much better it could have been if done differently. I do know that on the commentary for Coup d'Etat, Gero and whoever else joke about them not being able to keep their hands off each other after the desk sitting scene. It was hard not to think that they had a master plan and were just keeping it a secret.

*cracks up*

Although they had the same problem on SG-1 for people who ship Jack and Sam. They couldn't get together because of the regs, but that didn't stop TPTW from dropping vague (and sometimes, not that vague) hints about them. If TPTW can come out and say, "Yeah, we totally imagine that they got together after S8 finale," then why can't they give us a similar sense of reassurance about a ship that was even more blatant on screen than Jack/Sam?

Oh yeah. That's right. It's all in our heads.

I am one of a small minority of people who think that there did not need to be complete balance between the characters. Ensemble shows as a rule have an ep here and there that focuses on someone other than the main couple of characters. H50 and Bones come to mind, plus many others. I think these types of shows are different from shows like, for example, Lost, which are true ensembles without clear cut leads with the rest of the cast in major supporting roles. It may just be my perception, but I saw JF and DH as the leads. Everyone else had a slightly lesser part and were not intended to get equal treatment. I base this on the fact that those two actors were in every ep, even if only for a moment.

It has to do, not just with billing, but with contracts and how they are negotiated. David's "and" designation made him almost equal to Joe.

True. On IMDB, JoeF and DavidH are listed as the two top actors on the show because of the number of episodes they appeared in. Rachel is credited for all of them, even though she didn't appear in all of them.

Interesting sidenote: did you know that Jason Momoa appeared in more eppys than Torri???

I had read that statement by JM when he first wrote it on his blog, but over the years the details had faded. That would indeed have been wonderful and would have shown the connection between them.

I hope your optimism on SGA-R is not misplaced, but right now, I would be embarrassed to report to Joe that we are close to failing him. I am very disappointed and get a sad woobie face of my own when I think about it.

*hugs SR* There is still hope, and potential, and a lot of fans who still support it. This ride ain't over.

Hey guys! How are we all today. I swear I'm boiling to death Anywho I'm bored so thought I should go on our Sparky forum!

Yeah, it's burning up here in Florida, too. And I'm wearing a sweater. Moron. *headdesk*

[Scary Kitty]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Screw the Angst Wednesday!

Thanks for the adorable smilies, Nolamom! I'll be keeping an eye out for more!

It really is puzzling to watch the show and then hear the writers deny there would ever be anything between John and Elizabeth We still don't know the origin of that idea, but I'm guessing it had to be with Brad and/or Rob. They all knew about us and even replied to our questions at times, always saying that there could never be anything between them because she is his boss. I think you just had a bunch of people locked into an idea and not able to see how much better it could have been if done differently. I do know that on the commentary for Coup d'Etat, Gero and whoever else joke about them not being able to keep their hands off each other after the desk sitting scene. It was hard not to think that they had a master plan and were just keeping it a secret.

I admit, at the time that S4 was airing, I wondered if the whole thing about getting Elizabeth "killed" by the Replicators and then brought back later might be part of some sort of plan to take her out of being Sheppard's boss so they could get together someday. Of course, at that point I hadn't been in the fandom for very long and didn't know about certain other... things... that had been previously talked about by TPTW. *snorts*

But hey, now that she isn't his boss anymore... Someone really needs to ask Joe and Torri about that in Chicago.

I am one of a small minority of people who think that there did not need to be complete balance between the characters. Ensemble shows as a rule have an ep here and there that focuses on someone other than the main couple of characters. H50 and Bones come to mind, plus many others. I think these types of shows are different from shows like, for example, Lost, which are true ensembles without clear cut leads with the rest of the cast in major supporting roles. It may just be my perception, but I saw JF and DH as the leads. Everyone else had a slightly lesser part and were not intended to get equal treatment. I base this on the fact that those two actors were in every ep, even if only for a moment.

It has to do, not just with billing, but with contracts and how they are negotiated. David's "and" designation made him almost equal to Joe.

I also saw it that way.

I had read that statement by JM when he first wrote it on his blog, but over the years the details had faded. That would indeed have been wonderful and would have shown the connection between them.

I hope your optimism on SGA-R is not misplaced, but right now, I would be embarrassed to report to Joe that we are close to failing him. I am very disappointed and get a sad woobie face of my own when I think about it.

It's weird, but when Mallozzi says stuff like that with repeated consistency, I can't help but wonder if maybe he did think there was something to our Sparky insanity that would be worth looking into, but when it came to dropping hints to the fans, he was just playing things close to his chest, as it were. Argh.

I am likewise very disappointed about the delay in Atlantis Rising. But I refuse to lose hope. No surrender, no retreat!

[Brie]

It really is puzzling to watch the show and then hear the writers deny there would ever be anything between John and Elizabeth We still don't know the origin of that idea, but I'm guessing it had to be with Brad and/or Rob. They all knew about us and even replied to our questions at times, always saying that there could never be anything between them because she is his boss. I think you just had a bunch of people locked into an idea and not able to see how much better it could have been if done differently. I do know that on the commentary for Coup d'Etat, Gero and whoever else joke about them not being able to keep their hands off each other after the desk sitting scene. It was hard not to think that they had a master plan and were just keeping it a secret.

There was always the problem with her being the boss, and it was a problem for him as well even if it wasn’t 100% the same, but Elizabeth is especially doomed when it comes to having relationships since she can’t have one with anyone under her command and even if she would say meet someone of world the minute he came to Atlantis he would be under her command, it must be a sucky situation, though again, like we’ve mentioned before, if they were so deadest against Sparky being even a slight possibility then why didn’t they just keep her with Simon and they wouldn’t have any more problems with it but instead they keep putting John and Elizabeth in all these situations when they had no one to turn to but each other and then of course it’s all the obvious flirting.
I don’t remember if I’ve listened to the commentary for ‘Coup d'Etat’ but now I’m intrigued.

I am one of a small minority of people who think that there did not need to be complete balance between the characters. Ensemble shows as a rule have an ep here and there that focuses on someone other than the main couple of characters. H50 and Bones come to mind, plus many others. I think these types of shows are different from shows like, for example, Lost, which are true ensembles without clear cut leads with the rest of the cast in major supporting roles. It may just be my perception, but I saw JF and DH as the leads. Everyone else had a slightly lesser part and were not intended to get equal treatment. I base this on the fact that those two actors were in every ep, even if only for a moment.

It has to do, not just with billing, but with contracts and how they are negotiated. David's "and" designation made him almost equal to Joe.

I saw the write this about the show though:

Atlantis debuted on the Sci-Fi Channel on July 16, 2004, starring Joe Flanigan and Torri Higginson in the lead roles, with Rainbow Sun Francks, David Hewlett, and Rachel Luttrell alongside.

I think that it was because Torri was also a show lead that they had her in every episode unlike say Woolsey in season 4. I do have the feeling that this at least applied in the eralier seasons then it’s possible that things changed later on, but I think we all noticed the difference between the earlier seasons compared to the later once and by that I mean how the characters were treated and how they all seem to have had more to do back then compared to later on.

True. On IMDB, JoeF and DavidH are listed as the two top actors on the show because of the number of episodes they appeared in. Rachel is credited for all of them, even though she didn't appear in all of them.

Interesting sidenote: did you know that Jason Momoa appeared in more eppys than Torri???

I haven’t counted but since Jason was in 4 seasons and Torri in three then I think he was in more episodes, I also don’t know if they did the same with him as they did with Rachel.