Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[JT-2]

The episode of Supernatural with Michael Shanks is on now. Damn, I wish Torri had played his wife.

There is that. My only problem was I tried watching some Firefly to get another song in my head and only ended up with an idea for a crack fic.

You must write it!! Please!

So, since the handholding gif stirred up a bit of discussion yesterday, let's go with a different one as a stimulus today.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...ifs/eyesex.gif

Now, I'm thinking this was one of those moments that could be interpreted a lot of ways, but after the first few seconds, had very little to do with "work". What say you?

I agree. I like that he stopped to get her permission first, showing how far they'd come. In early season 1 he would have just gone. Even non-Sparkies noticed that look and thought it was shippy. Some even thought it was over the top ship. Personally, I loved it. It was the perfect culmination of season 1. Even if it's not shippy, it's definitely shows their strong friendship.

I say you're right. Darnit, you just don't share long, lingering looks with someone who's merely "the boss" when you're about to go face certain doom. You only do that with someone you really, truly care about.

Oh, and SR? After posting that particular pic today, you do realize which one you're going to have to post as a follow-up tomorrow, right?

SQUEE!!

[JT-2]

*runs to check for proper gif* Got it, and it's in slo mo.

I think if you look at that whole clip from Siege II and stop when he starts up the stairs and she calls his name, you could say she is telling him, as his boss, that this is not something he needs to do and is asking him if he's sure it's the only option. But then, since it's such a critical situation and every second counts, why didn't he rush up the stairs without a backward glance? Now that's the question. He essentially waited for her permission. Would he have gone had she demanded he stop? This goes back to the discussion of why John got so upset when Rodney activated the nanites or why Elizabeth didn't give in to Kolya's demands in CG. They understood each other to the level that it wasn't necessary to demand explanations or hash it out and were willing to sacrifice themselves and each other for the greater good. You just know at some point, I would think after John survived in Seige III, that they discussed this at length. Because even though they talked about not letting it happen again, surely they both knew it would.

You said it much better than I did. I should have just waited so I could say "ditto".

[Southern Red]

You said it much better than I did. I should have just waited so I could say "ditto".

Nope, don't ever do that. Each and every one of us always has something new to add. I just tend to ramble in a Sparky stream of consciousness.

[Scary Kitty]

*runs to check for proper gif* Got it, and it's in slo mo.

Yay!

I think if you look at that whole clip from Siege II and stop when he starts up the stairs and she calls his name, you could say she is telling him, as his boss, that this is not something he needs to do and is asking him if he's sure it's the only option. But then, since it's such a critical situation and every second counts, why didn't he rush up the stairs without a backward glance? Now that's the question. He essentially waited for her permission. Would he have gone had she demanded he stop? This goes back to the discussion of why John got so upset when Rodney activated the nanites or why Elizabeth didn't give in to Kolya's demands in CG. They understood each other to the level that it wasn't necessary to demand explanations or hash it out and were willing to sacrifice themselves and each other for the greater good. You just know at some point, I would think after John survived in Seige III, that they discussed this at length. Because even though they talked about not letting it happen again, surely they both knew it would.

I agree. I like that he stopped to get her permission first, showing how far they'd come. In early season 1 he would have just gone. Even non-Sparkies noticed that look and thought it was shippy. Some even thought it was over the top ship. Personally, I loved it. It was the perfect culmination of season 1. Even if it's not shippy, it's definitely shows their strong friendship.

Both of you bringing up the subject of asking for permission, and the timing of it, also raises the specter of the time when he didn't ask for permission: Hot Zone. Clearly, that episode was a learning experience for the both of them; it was the first time that they really were at odds with each other on how to handle the situation and suffered a breakdown of communication and cooperation because of it. (Remember, while they argued about sending a rescue in Rising, ultimately, Sheppard went back and came up with a plan first.) But it's after Hot Zone that we see their working relationship really start to click into place like a well-oiled machine. Now they both know that the other has limits and where those limits are, and try harder to work together instead of stepping over those lines.

Nope, don't ever do that. Each and every one of us always has something new to add. I just tend to ramble in a Sparky stream of consciousness.

And hey, having Sparky on the brain isn't a bad thing...

[Southern Red]

Yay!





Both of you bringing up the subject of asking for permission, and the timing of it, also raises the specter of the time when he didn't ask for permission: Hot Zone. Clearly, that episode was a learning experience for the both of them; it was the first time that they really were at odds with each other on how to handle the situation and suffered a breakdown of communication and cooperation because of it. (Remember, while they argued about sending a rescue in Rising, ultimately, Sheppard went back and came up with a plan first.) But it's after Hot Zone that we see their working relationship really start to click into place like a well-oiled machine. Now they both know that the other has limits and where those limits are, and try harder to work together instead of stepping over those lines.



And hey, having Sparky on the brain isn't a bad thing...

Those are very good points. I have always wished they had revisited the conflict in HZ. It ended with her accusing him of not trusting her and him denying it, and then afterwards they are working usually in perfect harmony. There had to be a middle ground, a time when John did some soul searching on what she had said and made a decision to really trust her. I think in HZ, he thought his initial decisions were always the best and tended not to weigh the options, even though that's how he said that Elizabeth was. Just shows how alike they are. Hmmm? Going back to a long ago discussion, the S1 Companion book has RCC saying that they originally intended to have more conflict between Sheppard and Weir, but no matter how they tried it, it just didn't work. He mentions also that the McKay character turned out to be the conflict character, and that they didn't want the team fighting each other on Atlantis. He just misses seeing that it was the amazing chemistry between Torri and Joe that made the difference. I really wish they had written more scenes like those in HZ. I think they could have made it work in a unique way not envisioned by the writers.

[JT-2]

Both of you bringing up the subject of asking for permission, and the timing of it, also raises the specter of the time when he didn't ask for permission: Hot Zone. Clearly, that episode was a learning experience for the both of them; it was the first time that they really were at odds with each other on how to handle the situation and suffered a breakdown of communication and cooperation because of it. (Remember, while they argued about sending a rescue in Rising, ultimately, Sheppard went back and came up with a plan first.) But it's after Hot Zone that we see their working relationship really start to click into place like a well-oiled machine. Now they both know that the other has limits and where those limits are, and try harder to work together instead of stepping over those lines.

Yes, exactly. I think it was through that conflict that they both learned quite a bit about the other. And it brings up one of my favorite things about Sparky - how much they each grow from the relationship. Here we can see John's protective instincts making him want to act first, shoot first, without really thinking through the consequences. By the time you get to Doppelganger John is trying to reason/communicate with the entity instead of just going off rashly to destroy it. Elizabeth, on the other hand, was hesitant and naive in Hot Zone. She kept stubbornly thinking she could reason with that guy (can't think of his name). Contrast that with later episodes like Coup where she was confident and decisive.

And hey, having Sparky on the brain isn't a bad thing...

I certainly hope not!

Those are very good points. I have always wished they had revisited the conflict in HZ. It ended with her accusing him of not trusting her and him denying it, and then afterwards they are working usually in perfect harmony.

Yes, they were. I'm always puzzled when I read people saying that they weren't on the same page anymore by the end of season 3. They disagreed in First Strike but I don't recall any other episode where they disagreed. You can't count Irresistible.

There had to be a middle ground, a time when John did some soul searching on what she had said and made a decision to really trust her. I think in HZ, he thought his initial decisions were always the best and tended not to weigh the options, even though that's how he said that Elizabeth was. Just shows how alike they are. Hmmm?

I *loved* it when Teyla pointed that out to him. Hee.

Going back to a long ago discussion, the S1 Companion book has RCC saying that they originally intended to have more conflict between Sheppard and Weir, but no matter how they tried it, it just didn't work. He mentions also that the McKay character turned out to be the conflict character, and that they didn't want the team fighting each other on Atlantis. He just misses seeing that it was the amazing chemistry between Torri and Joe that made the difference. I really wish they had written more scenes like those in HZ. I think they could have made it work in a unique way not envisioned by the writers.

Yes, there were certainly ways it could have been done. But that was beyond these writers. I wrote this in another thread somewhere.... that they tended to make whoever was the person arguing with Sheppard out to be the "bad guy". Bates, Everett, Caldwell. Each of them were, at times anyway, portrayed as the antagonists to John's protagonist. So I'm glad they didn't do that with Elizabeth. However, if they didn't do it that way then there could have been some great conflicts. Hot Zone was good for that. IMO neither of them was 100% right or 100% wrong.

[Scary Kitty]

Those are very good points. I have always wished they had revisited the conflict in HZ. It ended with her accusing him of not trusting her and him denying it, and then afterwards they are working usually in perfect harmony. There had to be a middle ground, a time when John did some soul searching on what she had said and made a decision to really trust her. I think in HZ, he thought his initial decisions were always the best and tended not to weigh the options, even though that's how he said that Elizabeth was. Just shows how alike they are. Hmmm? Going back to a long ago discussion, the S1 Companion book has RCC saying that they originally intended to have more conflict between Sheppard and Weir, but no matter how they tried it, it just didn't work. He mentions also that the McKay character turned out to be the conflict character, and that they didn't want the team fighting each other on Atlantis. He just misses seeing that it was the amazing chemistry between Torri and Joe that made the difference. I really wish they had written more scenes like those in HZ. I think they could have made it work in a unique way not envisioned by the writers.

It's a shame TPTW never let us see more of a resolution of the post-HZ trust issues between Sheppard and Weir. Sanctuary was the next episode, and I wonder if perhaps they could have transferred a little of McKay's skepticism of Chaya to Weir just to draw out things a little, especially since they did initially want to have more conflict between Sheppard and Weir. Though I suppose if they had, it would have looked too much like just plain old jealousy of the hot alien babe, and well, we can't have that, now can we?

Of course, the episode after that, Before I Sleep, did give such a lovely opportunity for Sheppard to bring Weir that little birthday present/peace offering.

Yes, exactly. I think it was through that conflict that they both learned quite a bit about the other. And it brings up one of my favorite things about Sparky - how much they each grow from the relationship. Here we can see John's protective instincts making him want to act first, shoot first, without really thinking through the consequences. By the time you get to Doppelganger John is trying to reason/communicate with the entity instead of just going off rashly to destroy it. Elizabeth, on the other hand, was hesitant and naive in Hot Zone. She kept stubbornly thinking she could reason with that guy (can't think of his name). Contrast that with later episodes like Coup where she was confident and decisive.

That is a great illustration of how their relationship grew over time, and in John's case, even after Elizabeth was gone. Not just that they grew closer and understood each other better, but that they grew from knowing each other and learning from each other.

Yes, they were. I'm always puzzled when I read people saying that they weren't on the same page anymore by the end of season 3. They disagreed in First Strike but I don't recall any other episode where they disagreed. You can't count Irresistible.

Must've been from that AU feed of the show where Elizabeth kept John's manhood in her little jar.

I *loved* it when Teyla pointed that out to him. Hee.

Early evidence of Teyla backing her BFF Lizzeh!

[Southern Red]

Yes, and from the way she rolled her eyes at him, it looks like Teyla was saying, "Here we go again. Why don't you just make out and get it over with?" What? That's what John said to Radek and Rodney when they were arguing. Makes sense. And the way she pointed out to him that he was stubborn just like Lizzeh, tells me that she saw how alike they were. So would that make Teyla the first Sparky shipper on the expedition?

*waves to our 6 lurkers* Surely some of you want to get in on this great discussion.

[Falcon Horus]

I'm in class - Script & Storyboard - not paying attention. ... That's all.

[JT-2]

Yes, and from the way she rolled her eyes at him, it looks like Teyla was saying, "Here we go again. Why don't you just make out and get it over with?" What? That's what John said to Radek and Rodney when they were arguing. Makes sense. And the way she pointed out to him that he was stubborn just like Lizzeh, tells me that she saw how alike they were. So would that make Teyla the first Sparky shipper on the expedition?

*waves to our 6 lurkers* Surely some of you want to get in on this great discussion.

No, no, no. Rodney was the first Sparky shipper. As unaware as Rodney can be, he still surely saw what happened when Kolya threatened Lizzie. And then how couple-y they were afterwards.

[Scary Kitty]

Yes, and from the way she rolled her eyes at him, it looks like Teyla was saying, "Here we go again. Why don't you just make out and get it over with?" What? That's what John said to Radek and Rodney when they were arguing. Makes sense. And the way she pointed out to him that he was stubborn just like Lizzeh, tells me that she saw how alike they were. So would that make Teyla the first Sparky shipper on the expedition?

*waves to our 6 lurkers* Surely some of you want to get in on this great discussion.

No, no, no. Rodney was the first Sparky shipper. As unaware as Rodney can be, he still surely saw what happened when Kolya threatened Lizzie. And then how couple-y they were afterwards.

http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/...s/the-eye2.png

http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/...s/the-eye1.png

Okay, so Rodney's #1 and Teyla's #2. Who would be #3? Ford? Carson? Peter Grodin?

[Southern Red]

No, no, no. Rodney was the first Sparky shipper. As unaware as Rodney can be, he still surely saw what happened when Kolya threatened Lizzie. And then how couple-y they were afterwards.

http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/...s/the-eye2.png

http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/...s/the-eye1.png

You are definitely correct. How could I forget? But going way back, I think Teyla exchanged a look with Lizzeh at the end of 38 Minutes that said, "Don't worry, girlfriend, I made sure he came back to you in one piece". But there's a chance Rodney would have noticed before that.

Okay, so Rodney's #1 and Teyla's #2. Who would be #3? Ford? Carson? Peter Grodin?

Oh, it has to be Carson, considering all the time John has spent in the infirmary. Though Grodin was around both of them a lot.

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

what about Kate Heightmeyer?

[JT-2]

I've got it! It's Sumner!!

[Scary Kitty]

I've got it! It's Sumner!!

As #1? Hmm, John did make that "That would be Doctor Weir, right?" remark with a s**t-eating grin to Sumner before they went through the gate...