Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

Word to that. JoeF had a better sense of consistency and continuity in terms of his character and the overall storyline than the producers and writers of the show. That's a pretty sad commentary of affairs behind the scenes.

And plus he cares about his character. Remember Joe Was the one who went back to the writers to put that little scene about elizabeth back in reunion.

[ShipperWriter]

And plus he cares about his character. Remember Joe Was the one who went back to the writers to put that little scene about elizabeth back in reunion.

And we needed that, thank you, Joe!!!

And now, from that little "Lilo and Stitch" discussion we had a little while ago:



Enjoy!

Now back to work on my fics ...

[ShipperWriter]

And this ...

Spoilered just for size ...

Spoiler:

Boredom is a good thing ...

[Scary Kitty]

And plus he cares about his character. Remember Joe Was the one who went back to the writers to put that little scene about elizabeth back in reunion.

There's really no 'plus' about it. It's all part of the same thing. Joe's 'sense of consistency and continuity in terms of his character and the overall storyline,' as I already said, is what prompted him to insist on putting that scene back in, as well as all the times when he put on his sad woobie face to show glimpses of Sheppard's grief whenever there was a moment that reminded him of Elizabeth.

And we needed that, thank you, Joe!!!

And now, from that little "Lilo and Stitch" discussion we had a little while ago:



Enjoy!

Now back to work on my fics ...

Ooops, pic no worky. Is it the same as the one below?

And this ...

Spoilered just for size ...

Spoiler:

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/...arky/Ohana.png

Boredom is a good thing ...

Yay for boredom! That's perfect!

[ShipperWriter]

There's really no 'plus' about it. It's all part of the same thing. Joe's 'sense of consistency and continuity in terms of his character and the overall storyline,' as I already said, is what prompted him to insist on putting that scene back in, as well as all the times when he put on his sad woobie face to show glimpses of Sheppard's grief whenever there was a moment that reminded him of Elizabeth.

Yay for "sad woobie face" ... Sparky FTW!!!

Ooops, pic no worky. Is it the same as the one below?

Yay for boredom! That's perfect!

Different pics. Let me go fix the link.

Or just repost the right one! Started organizing my PB account. BAD idea.



THERE we go!

Night, SK, be back tomorrow! After another grueling day of work ... I'd much rather take on the Wraith and Replicators than go to my two jobs tomorrow ... *headsdesk*

[Scary Kitty]

Yay for "sad woobie face" ... Sparky FTW!!!

Yup. Angsty though it is, the sad woobie face lets us know that Sparky is alive and well.

Different pics. Let me go fix the link.

Or just repost the right one! Started organizing my PB account. BAD idea.

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/...Ohanasig-1.png

THERE we go!

EEEEEEEEE! It's so cute! Team Atlantis is our Ohana!

Night, SK, be back tomorrow! After another grueling day of work ... I'd much rather take on the Wraith and Replicators than go to my two jobs tomorrow ... *headsdesk*

Eeeek! That sure sounds scary, all right!

[gateraid]

This multi-quote function is really beginning to <insert harmless expression here> me. For the last few months, whenever I use it, it continually re-quotes messages from my previous browsing session. This is not helpful. Not helpful at all.

We really need to get John's timeline straight for SGARising. At some point John says he was in Antarctica for 11 months. Does anyone remember what ep that was in? You'd have to work backwards from there to figure out when he was in Afghanistan. Promotions in the USAF are pretty much automatic up to Major unless you screw up badly. Most of the guys I know who are Majors got the promotion in their early to mid 30's. Pilots in combat are frequently captains with the promotion coming after a few years unless they screw up badly. For John to be a Major, he must have done okay. If he was a good pilot and his antics didn't embarrass his superiors or he didn't blatantly disobey orders frequently, they might let him slide. Good pilots are badly needed and they are the rock stars in the military.

Does someone have a list of his ribbons and medals from the time we saw him in uniform? Keeping in mind also that wardrobe may just have grabbed some generic medals that they thought were appropriate for him. I doubt they put much thought into it.

That's quite interesting. I gathered promotions were relatively automatic, especially for 'rock stars' and the like. I also assumed that maybe people like Major Davis, who never got promoted, were kinda pointed towards the door but not pushed out it.

As I understand it, CO's can put in requests for accellerated promotion too, but the candidate has to be doing some pretty stellar work for that to actually happen (?)

Okay, Sheppard's uniform medals! I seem to recall we had discussed this a few months ago, but it's always good to refresh our memories.

Got a couple of screencaps for you.



So, what do they mean? Read from Sheppard's right to left, and from top row to bottom row (note the addition of bronze or silver oak leaves or stars on some ribbons; these signify additional times he has received the award: bronze for each additional award up to three, silver for four additional awards):

Top row:
Distinguished Flying Cross x2 (1 bronze oak leaf)
Meritorious Service Medal x3 (2 bronze oak leaves)

Second row:
Air Medal x5 (silver oak leaf)
Air Force Commendation Medal x4 (3 bronze oak leaves)
Aerial Achievement Medal x5 (silver oak leaf)
(note that the last two are not in the correct order of precedence; it should be the Aerial Achievement Medal first, then the Air Force Commendation Medal)

Third row:
Air Force Achievement Medal x2 (1 bronze oak leaf)
Air Force Outstanding Unit Award
Combat Readiness Medal

Fourth row:
National Defense Service Medal x2 (1 bronze star)
Afghanistan Campaign Medal
Global War on Terrorism Service Medal
(note that if Sheppard has been awarded the Antarctica Service Medal, which I believe he should have (with a Wintered Over device), it should come between the National Defense Service Medal and the Afghanistan Campaign Medal)

Fifth row:
Air Force Overseas Short Tour
Longevity Service Award x4 (3 bronze oak leaves)
Air Force Training Ribbon

The Longevity Service Award also gives a major clue to Sheppard's service timeline: That award is given for every four years of active service completed. Sheppard's received it four times as of 'Sunday,' which means that at the time of that episode, he had been in the Air Force for at least 16 years and no longer than 19. Of course, that's assuming his medals were all up to date.

As to the Afghanistan question and where his 11 months in Antarctica fits in, that opens up a whole other can of worms. I've deduced that 'Rising' has to take place in the autumn of 2004, possibly around early October. I know, 'Rising' aired in July, but there's no way that Sheppard and O'Neill could be flying around in a helicopter on a day with the sun as high in the sky as we saw, in the middle of July. While that's summer for those of us in the Northern Hemisphere, it's winter in the Southern Hemisphere, and as close to the South Pole as they were supposed to be, the area that Sheppard and O'Neill were flying in would be experiencing nearly 24 hours of night. No way they'd send up a heli in that. So my guess is that in order for Sheppard to have been in Antarctica for about 11 months prior to 'Rising,' he had been sent there around October or November of 2003.

Yeah, I've put some thought into this.

Iz speechless That is some stellar work from you. I've put in a request for accellerated promotion, we'll see how it goes

Funny thing about the 38 Minutes thing. I was one who noticed it in that episode and it was pretty much that whole question of what he meant to say that made me aware of the idea of sparky even if I didn't really actively support it until 3 seasons later. But what I thought was rather funny was that since we never got to hear what he actually wanted to say, one's imagination starts to make possible connections to something romantic (or something), but if he'd actually gotten to say anything like that I doubt very much I would have bought it. So if he had, I might have never cared for the two of them together. At the same time, the fact that he didn't was still what made me take notice. So it was a fien line to walk I guess. And I honestly Couldn't think of anything that probably would have made sense to me for years after the fact even when I gave it a little thought.

So I guess that works for me.

I always assumed that Weir had a collaborating leadership style with John. I don't remember if they explicitly stated that but I figured it was certainly the case. By then I would have already seen Season 1 of Battlestar, so perhaps I just assumed that they'd have adopted a similar arrangement to Adama and Roslyn but I would imagine the whole reason to have a civilian and military commander sent to the expedition would be for that purpose. Had he survived, I would guess Sumner would have had that role.

Regarding tension with Carter or Woolsey. I don't think it's in Sheppard should have given any problems to Carter. A - It seems unprofessional. B -I don't think it's in his nature to clash with new people just because they are new. Most of the other people he had some sort of conflict were because of specific moments where they butted heads. I didn't expect Carter to do so. It's not like it was Sam's fault that Elizabeth was captured. (well... not really )

By the time Woolsey rolled around he wasn't a replacement for Elizabeth, he was a replacement for Carter who was simply reassigned. And that probablty wasn't his call either. At least not entirely.

I can see maybe there could have been more times where he came into conflcit with John. But I never really had a problem with the fact that they didn't. I guess the writers were eager to have him integrated into the "family" they had over there, and since he was an unlikely member of the team to begin with, maybe they felt delaying that process even further might have been determinable to his character. We had to learn more about him in the first several episodes to make him more of a sympathetic fit for the show. Putting that off might have caused the fans to like him less or something. At least that was my attempt to have a random guess at their thought process.

There was a deleted scene in The Seed, that the team expressed their dissatisfaction with him, that I thought worked fairly well in getting tension across fora while.

But in either case, I don't think John would have expressed any resentment about Elizabeth being gone to either of them. Most of his anger would been directed towards himself.

While I can see the comparison between Adama/Roslin and Shep/Weir in terms of a command relationship (ie not a 'ship'), IMO there's actually a striking difference. Roslin just walks all over Adama.
season four BSG spoilers

Spoiler:

By the fourth season, make no mistake, she owns him. There's a scene where Tyrell, Adama, Roslin are in Adama's quarters. Tyrell is asking for Sharon's pardon. Roslin is sitting in Bill's chair, at his desk, denies the appeal, and then says "dismissed" as Bill would. He, however, says nothing. While the two of them apart act completely independantly, when they are together, she is definitely wearing the pantsuit in the relationship.

ITA with that. And also it was a bit of an insult to Elizabeth that someone else filled her shoes so easily. Ronon was really the only one who had any sort of a problem with either Carter or Woolsey. Rodney in particular should have been reluctant to accept Woolsey. Not to mention John. After Misbegotten and his reaction to him he should have been a bit standoffish for a long time. But it's all part of the let's forget Weir ever existed theme. Thanks to JF though, it wasn't very successful. And still to this day even though he seems to have forgotten half the things that happened in the show Joe still remembers Torri fondly.

And we can't blame Joe for forgetting - after all, it's just a job that he did a few years back. One of many that he will do in his lifetime.

On leadership, out of the two, I think Carter would have been easier to accept at the time. They needed a new leader, she took the slot. Changing to Woolsey (at least on screen) came out of nowhere. Carter was fired by the IOA for one of their own. But the Stargate acts like a reset button for memory, so none of this was a problem

[Infinite-Possibilities]

I didn't read whatever you wrote in Battlestar Galactica spoilers because Season 4 is the one I haven't seen yet. But either way I was mostly referring to their command arrangement idea not whatever their relationship was or how their dynamic played out over the course of the show.

Well, I don't think John would've ever expressed anger or resentment toward either Carter or Woolsey. As you said, it would be unprofessional of him. What I do think should've been more evident in both cases is a sense of discomfort and uncertainty in all the characters regarding the changes in command. Is the newcomer going to be more of an SGC/IOA insider, building on the 'us versus them' theme we saw with episodes like Allies/No Man's Land/Misbegotten, The Return, First Strike, The Seer, and Remnants? How are they going to fit in, or are they even going to try? That sort of thing.

AH I understand. That makes sense but still, even with that I would imagine Carter would've put his mind at east with most concerns pretty quickly

[gateraid]

I didn't read whatever you wrote in Battlestar Galactica spoilers because Season 4 is the one I haven't seen yet. But either way I was mostly referring to their command arrangement idea not whatever their relationship was or how their dynamic played out over the course of the show.

I referenced a particular s4 scene. I think it would be fair to say that, up until the end of s3 at least, Rolsin had definitely been in the lead as far as their command relationship goes. Bill got pissed off during s1, then went the complete opposite way after that. I take it you've seen the s2/Razor/Admiral Cain episodes?

[Southern Red]

And plus he cares about his character. Remember Joe Was the one who went back to the writers to put that little scene about elizabeth back in reunion.

And he cared about the other characters and the show as a whole. *glares at TPTB*

This multi-quote function is really beginning to <insert harmless expression here> me. For the last few months, whenever I use it, it continually re-quotes messages from my previous browsing session. This is not helpful. Not helpful at all.

The same thing happens to me unless I close the browser and reopen it. Makes me

That's quite interesting. I gathered promotions were relatively automatic, especially for 'rock stars' and the like. I also assumed that maybe people like Major Davis, who never got promoted, were kinda pointed towards the door but not pushed out it.

As I understand it, CO's can put in requests for accellerated promotion too, but the candidate has to be doing some pretty stellar work for that to actually happen (?)

True but in RL Major Davis would have been promoted long ago. He does a great job. His superiors rely on and trust him and he seems to be a great officer. I have heard tales though that sometimes the Generals keep people around because they are so good and they need them. A promotion would surely result in transfer.

And we can't blame Joe for forgetting - after all, it's just a job that he did a few years back. One of many that he will do in his lifetime.

Let's face it. They are all actors and no matter how friendly they become with each other, it's still just a job on set. Some people who have trouble separating the actors from the characters have trouble understanding that. I doubt any of them lie awake nights wishing things had turned out different on the show. And sometimes when fans approach them with comments about their characters and what did or did not happen, they just go along with it so the fans will be happy. Who wouldn't? We love Joe, though, for his honesty when it matters. And he still says he's pissed off at how Torri was treated.

[Eri13]

ITA with that. And also it was a bit of an insult to Elizabeth that someone else filled her shoes so easily. Ronon was really the only one who had any sort of a problem with either Carter or Woolsey. Rodney in particular should have been reluctant to accept Woolsey. Not to mention John. After Misbegotten and his reaction to him he should have been a bit standoffish for a long time. But it's all part of the let's forget Weir ever existed theme. Thanks to JF though, it wasn't very successful. And still to this day even though he seems to have forgotten half the things that happened in the show Joe still remembers Torri fondly.

That was also a fail of the writing. As I seem to recall, there was never much emphasis put on why Atlantis suddenly militarized. They might have mentioned it, but I think it should have been glaringly obvious, as the reverse situation was in The Lost City eppies, when they first brought Weir in and tried to de-militarize SGC.

I think I presumed it was because the replicator scenario scared the living daylights out of them and made them realized they were in a war scenario. And then when the replicators were destroyed that war situation wasn't so dire anymore, so they could go back to being a civilian expedition (which seems like pretty sorry reasoning to me, what with the Wraith still there and then finding out about the remaining replicators and the Vanir).

This multi-quote function is really beginning to <insert harmless expression here> me. For the last few months, whenever I use it, it continually re-quotes messages from my previous browsing session. This is not helpful. Not helpful at all.

That's quite interesting. I gathered promotions were relatively automatic, especially for 'rock stars' and the like. I also assumed that maybe people like Major Davis, who never got promoted, were kinda pointed towards the door but not pushed out it.

As I understand it, CO's can put in requests for accellerated promotion too, but the candidate has to be doing some pretty stellar work for that to actually happen (?)

Iz speechless That is some stellar work from you. I've put in a request for accellerated promotion, we'll see how it goes

While I can see the comparison between Adama/Roslin and Shep/Weir in terms of a command relationship (ie not a 'ship'), IMO there's actually a striking difference. Roslin just walks all over Adama.
season four BSG spoilers

Spoiler:

By the fourth season, make no mistake, she owns him. There's a scene where Tyrell, Adama, Roslin are in Adama's quarters. Tyrell is asking for Sharon's pardon. Roslin is sitting in Bill's chair, at his desk, denies the appeal, and then says "dismissed" as Bill would. He, however, says nothing. While the two of them apart act completely independantly, when they are together, she is definitely wearing the pantsuit in the relationship.

And we can't blame Joe for forgetting - after all, it's just a job that he did a few years back. One of many that he will do in his lifetime.

On leadership, out of the two, I think Carter would have been easier to accept at the time. They needed a new leader, she took the slot. Changing to Woolsey (at least on screen) came out of nowhere. Carter was fired by the IOA for one of their own. But the Stargate acts like a reset button for memory, so none of this was a problem

And yeah, Woolsey was a terrible transition in terms of continuity of his character. Though he had his moments (as in Misbegotten) he somehow lost that stodgy, weasely side of him when he took command. I mean, considering how he acted in The Return series, it was a big change.

Not surprising, though--they sorta did the same with Rodney. He was acerbic in SGA at the beginning, but nowhere nearly as annoying as he'd been in SG-1, at least to me.

[Southern Red]

That was also a fail of the writing. As I seem to recall, there was never much emphasis put on why Atlantis suddenly militarized. They might have mentioned it, but I think it should have been glaringly obvious, as the reverse situation was in The Lost City eppies, when they first brought Weir in and tried to de-militarize SGC.

I think I presumed it was because the replicator scenario scared the living daylights out of them and made them realized they were in a war scenario. And then when the replicators were destroyed that war situation wasn't so dire anymore, so they could go back to being a civilian expedition (which seems like pretty sorry reasoning to me, what with the Wraith still there and then finding out about the remaining replicators and the Vanir).

I'm sure the writers sat down in the conference room and had a long thoughtful discussion about all that and where they wanted the show to go and how the characters would fulfill their plan. Pretty sure, at least.

And yeah, Woolsey was a terrible transition in terms of continuity of his character. Though he had his moments (as in Misbegotten) he somehow lost that stodgy, weasely side of him when he took command. I mean, considering how he acted in The Return series, it was a big change.

Not surprising, though--they sorta did the same with Rodney. He was acerbic in SGA at the beginning, but nowhere nearly as annoying as he'd been in SG-1, at least to me.

Woolsey was great in his clumsiness in Return II and early on in S5 when the doors closed on him and he got lost etc. But then suddenly all the sharp edges were gone and we were feeling sorry for him because he lost his Yorkie in the divorce. So yeah.

So many shows do this with characters. I've always hated it. Like recently the ep on Criminal Minds

Spoiler:

when Garcia was all button down and going on missions. Then I breathed a huge sigh of relief that they put her back like she was.

The question with SGA is why didn't they get the big pic on Elizabeth and use the skills that they emphasized that she had back in SG-1 and in the pilot for SGA? Forever a mystery to me. We should have had a scene with her attempting to teach John Ancient way back in S1. Now wouldn't that have been fun?

[KrisRussel]

Absolutely! It's moments like that, and the messages to the families of the fallen in Letters From Pegasus, which have led me to view her as the 'heart' of Atlantis, as it were. I get the impression that she's tried to make the effort to get to know everyone on the expedition, so that they're not just names and faces to her, they're people. Her people.

I agree. I can totally see Elizabeth wanting to get to know everyone that works for her. Even before the Expedition leaves, I can easily picture her getting together for a chat with everyone who's been chosen for the mission. I also think she'd want a say in who was going to join the expedition.

ITA with that. And also it was a bit of an insult to Elizabeth that someone else filled her shoes so easily. Ronon was really the only one who had any sort of a problem with either Carter or Woolsey. Rodney in particular should have been reluctant to accept Woolsey. Not to mention John. After Misbegotten and his reaction to him he should have been a bit standoffish for a long time. But it's all part of the let's forget Weir ever existed theme. Thanks to JF though, it wasn't very successful. And still to this day even though he seems to have forgotten half the things that happened in the show Joe still remembers Torri fondly.

True, it was an absolute insult to see how easily Elizabeth was replaced. But I don't think comparing that to Caldwell is a good idea. Remember that Caldwell was an absolute a$$hole who tried to steal John's spot. Of course the Goa'uld was to blame for that, but back then they just thought it was him. After the Goa'uld was replaced, he was a nice guy and people easily accepted him.

The question with SGA is why didn't they get the big pic on Elizabeth and use the skills that they emphasized that she had back in SG-1 and in the pilot for SGA? Forever a mystery to me. We should have had a scene with her attempting to teach John Ancient way back in S1. Now wouldn't that have been fun?

ZOMG!!!! Would have loved to see that!!!!!!! Someone put this in a fic!!!! please!!!!!

[Eri13]

Hello...sorry to interrupt the discussions, but I have an SS6 question that is pressing.

What would the group like to call Nancy? Have we brought up discussion of her last name? I don't think we ever had it confirmed that she still went by Sheppard. So what would you guys like to do? Keep her Sheppard or create a new last name for her?

[Southern Red]

Hello...sorry to interrupt the discussions, but I have an SS6 question that is pressing.

What would the group like to call Nancy? Have we brought up discussion of her last name? I don't think we ever had it confirmed that she still went by Sheppard. So what would you guys like to do? Keep her Sheppard or create a new last name for her?

Hmmm? It was never confirmed that she was actually married to Greg Grant, so I guess we need to decide what to do about that first. She was referred to as Nancy Sheppard in the IMDB listing for that ep. *shrugs* I'm good with whatever the majority thinks. My personal opinion is that she was not married to him and was still going by Sheppard.