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**VampyreWraith** · 13 July 2010, 09:57 AM

Originally posted by Southern Red View Post

So basically we are all over the place in what we like and don't like. I think it simply all boils down to chemistry.

For example, why does everyone love Castle so much? It's been pretty in your face the whole time. Why aren't we complaining about "Castle anvils"? Chemisty. They haz it.

Why do so many fans (sorry nephtys) dislike McKeller so much? No chemistry of the romantic sort. I won't mention any other SGA ship. But chemistry is also in the eye of the beholder sometimes.

And most of all, why didn't the writers go with Sparky? Surely they saw the chemistry. I know they knew about the huge number of fans because it was pointed out to JM and I believe he said he didn't care if 10 times more people liked Sparky, they were not going to let it influence their creative decisions. All righty then. So hoards of Sparky fans stopped watching. It's all a big crap shoot and they crapped out.

I've only seen parts of episodes of Castle so i can't really comment on it. I know the mentalist has a couple on it that i don't mind either way, not the lead leads, which i for some reason wouldn't mind either. But those are different types of shows than SGA, so i guess it may be easier to show a real world realationship as someone above said because its not a sci-fi show and has a different set of fans.
As for why they didn't do sparky, it was cuz they started with sheyla even though that didnt go anywhere either; and then they'd have the sheylas AND the non-shippers pissed at them threatening not to watch the show , so they took the easy route and tried to throw everyone a bone. The only reason they did McKeller is so they could live vicariously through Rodney.

**Fionnait** · 13 July 2010, 09:58 AM

Originally posted by Southern Red View Post

It makes perfect sense. Why not just get them together already and have an occasional mention? It would have made perfect sense and was what I think the majority of casual viewers expected. I think they just didn't understand that we shippers don't need sex scenes or tender love scenes or handholding or any of that on a regular basis. With Sparky, I would have been happy with one of those balcony scenes becoming a confession of feelings followed episodes later by a kiss and then continue with the occasional intimate word or look or touch. That would have told us all we needed to know and we would have squeed happily every time. I didn't want or need to see them in those storage closets *glares at SGU*. I remember expressing a similar idea early in the show and someone called me a "teenage girl". I am still chuckling over that one. Maybe at heart.

They had more tender whatever scenes because they were not together!
Well, just goes to show that actual teenage girls (who probably were late teens) think that sex and closets is more grown up and that that's what a relationship is about.

Originally posted by Scary Kitty View Post

Makes perfect sense to me. There'd probably be far fewer ship haters among Atlantis fans if they'd just bitten the bullet and resolved Sheppard's relationship status one way or the other. Of course, they did that with McKay and Keller, and that didn't go over so well, so... *shrugs* Who knows?

But McKeller came out of nowhere. And it was badly done. As in it really, really made me cringe. And I like Jane Austen, I'm a tough girl when it comes to kitsch! I can take a lot.

**Southern Red** · 13 July 2010, 10:03 AM

Originally posted by Scary Kitty View Post

Heck, slide in a line about them having dinner... just the two of them. They could even make it a little funny by having McKay whining about not being invited.

That would've been perfect for me.

Or this:

Spoiler:

**VampyreWraith** · 13 July 2010, 10:03 AM

Originally posted by Fionnait View Post

I hate Hart to Hart, but only because my parents had to name me after it. I don't like my name.

Harm and Mac was long overdue, too. I actually think if they had Jack and Sam together and one point, as in resolution, and then not focussed on it, there would have been less Sam Jack haters. There was more focus on it because they were not together. If that makes sense.

I didn't mind Sam and Jack either, I actually liked them a lot, they were both well developed characters on sg1, I wouldn't have cared if they actually confirmed that ship in season 9 or after. As for Harm and Mac I misssed a lot of it especially in later seasons, so it didnt seem that long to me, but usually ship is not what i look for in a show, so for me if ithe characters are done well and ship happens i usually don't mind.

**VampyreWraith** · 13 July 2010, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by nephtys59 View Post

Now I'm curious, what was wrong -in your opinion- with McKay and Keller?
Just to have a different point of view

I know this wasnt directed at me but i feel like answering that lol. Keller was an ill conceived character, who was poorly developed. Most of any of her development came from being with and falling for Rodney. There was no real build up to Rodney's I love you in the Shrine, and then there was the love triangle, and then Brainstorm, where I felt as if i was beaten over the head with McKeller.

Add: Keller needed more actual development as an individual before she shouldve been shipped with anyone, and the relationship with Rodney and Jennifer would've worked it it was more gradual, and not "hurry lets get McKeller together so we could live out our fantasies before we get canceled". The actual idea of Dr. Keller (not superkeller) and Rodney getting together couldve been ok if done well, but IMO it wasn't. I kinda went though how i thought it should've bee done in the "anti-Keller " thread awhile back.

**Scary Kitty** · 13 July 2010, 10:20 AM

Originally posted by nephtys59 View Post

Now I'm curious, what was wrong -in your opinion- with McKay and Keller?
Just to have a different point of view

Well, perhaps a little less bluntly than VampyreWraith's response, but... they weren't subtle about it. They let the relationship take over too much of the show and crowded out the team.

Originally posted by Fionnait View Post

They had more tender whatever scenes because they were not together!
Well, just goes to show that actual teenage girls (who probably were late teens) think that sex and closets is more grown up and that that's what a relationship is about.

*snorts*

Originally posted by Fionnait View Post

But McKeller came out of nowhere. And it was badly done. As in it really, really made me cringe. And I like Jane Austen, I'm a tough girl when it comes to kitsch! I can take a lot.

Heh. That's what I meant when I said it didn't go over so well.

Originally posted by Southern Red View Post

Or this:

Spoiler:

Aaaaahhhh! That's perfect! *flaily flails*

**Fionnait** · 13 July 2010, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by Scary Kitty View Post

Heh. That's what I meant when I said it didn't go over so well.

Oh, I thought you meant it wasn't well received by the audience. Which is true also.

**Anuna** · 13 July 2010, 10:41 AM

I'm loving the discussion, guys, and I'm sorry I jump in kind of late, when all points were probably covered, but here are my two cents, put as coherently as possible.

I don't mind relationships on TV, and I don't watch TV shows, especially not science fiction, for realism. There are ton of people who drone on about that "In real world they could never be together because they work together" thing (I'm talking about Sparky here), but this is not documentary. the ultimate purpose of a TV show is to entertain (and earn money while doing so, obviously) but I don't want mindless entertainment either. I want something fun and witty and engaging, both in intellectual and emotional way, and SGA has that, even though it's not the best show out there.

I feel that there is a pre - made belief that a couple on a tV show will ruin a TV show, so if a TV show has a possible couple, you better stall until the very end because UST is the only thing that's fun. I think that's immature. Bones and this recent season is the best example. Most people on my livejournal friends list loved the season finale, and I was banging my head against a wall, because the writers did a convenient reset instead doing what logically follows after five freaking years of Brennan and Booth making gooey eyes at each other and being partners in all ways but one (sexual). The thing is, I truly believe this relationship and these characters have more to offer, than UST. Pair them up and watch what happens. they're pretty different personalities, how will they adjust to each other? It's the very thing Eri wrote about, give us stories about building up a relationship and making it strong. That's realistic, that's what happens in ordinary lives. That bit of realism would actually be good for many TV shows.

If SGA PTW knew how to make relationships work, they'd pair up John and Elizabeth somewhere around season 3. Endless UST eventually drags out and gets boring (Sam and Jack, oh woe.) and you gotta wonder how disfunctional these two people really are, if they spend years and yeas trying to "ignore it" for some greater good. But as far as I know wars have been fought and people were loving and living together and fighting together too. It's possible. There's lot of creative freedom within the sci fi genre. Not every single thing has to be 100% realistic. john doesn't have to be court martialed for loving Elizabeth, but questions can be asked if, say, one of them makes a decision that looks like it's been influenced by their feelings. Actually, that's something we could do in our season 7, if we get to the point where John and Elizabeth have a relationship and something goes wrong, thanks to John's or Elizabeth's decision. Let's put them in that situation and watch them cope and find the answers. Let's see how their friends deal with it. It doesn't have to be 100% real world realistic (wormholes between galaxies anyone?) but it can be engaging and entertaining.

*steps off the soapbox*

Now let me see the rest of this lovely convo.

**Anuna** · 13 July 2010, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by Southern Red View Post

It makes perfect sense. Why not just get them together already and have an occasional mention? It would have made perfect sense and was what I think the majority of casual viewers expected. I think they just didn't understand that we shippers don't need sex scenes or tender love scenes or handholding or any of that on a regular basis. With Sparky, I would have been happy with one of those balcony scenes becoming a confession of feelings followed episodes later by a kiss and then continue with the occasional intimate word or look or touch. That would have told us all we needed to know and we would have squeed happily every time. I didn't want or need to see them in those storage closets *glares at SGU*. I remember expressing a similar idea early in the show and someone called me a "teenage girl". I am still chuckling over that one. Maybe at heart.

Include a scene of them having a lunch together and Teyla dragging Rodney away so he wouldn't intrude.

A scene where Elizabeth is worried about a situation they're facing, she's tired, it's late at night, John listens to her and they share a hug.

A scene with PG - looking morning routine. *happy sigh*

**Southern Red** · 13 July 2010, 11:01 AM

Originally posted by Anuna View Post

Include a scene of them having a lunch together and Teyla dragging Rodney away so he wouldn't intrude.

A scene where Elizabeth is worried about a situation they're facing, she's tired, it's late at night, John listens to her and they share a hug.

A scene with PG - looking morning routine. *happy sigh*

Or a PG evening routine. I mean good grief, even on the commentary they made suggestive comments about the end scene in Coup D'Etat. All you would have to add to that was him telling her not to be long that he would be waiting.

In fact, that's an idea. How would we incorporate Sparky moments of RST into the show as it was written?

Misbegotten: The defending my honor scene. John tells her that it's his job to defend her. "Nobody criticizes someone I love and gets away with it. Nobody."

**Fionnait** · 13 July 2010, 11:05 AM

Originally posted by Anuna View Post

That's realistic, that's what happens in ordinary lives. That bit of realism would actually be good for many TV shows.

It also happens in Terry Pratchett books.

That is ONE of the many reasons I love them so much. The characters are never defined by the relationship. They are hardly ever mentioned. They just get on with it and all is well. *hugs books*

**Scary Kitty** · 13 July 2010, 11:08 AM

Hey, is it just me, or is the quoting function going screwy for anyone else? There's some funky split screen thing going on in the reply box. I don't like it.

Everyone's user names are smaller, too.

Originally posted by Fionnait View Post

Oh, I thought you meant it wasn't well received by the audience. Which is true also.

Kinda both, actually.

Originally posted by Anuna View Post

Include a scene of them having a lunch together and Teyla dragging Rodney away so he wouldn't intrude.

A scene where Elizabeth is worried about a situation they're facing, she's tired, it's late at night, John listens to her and they share a hug.

A scene with PG - looking morning routine. *happy sigh*

*joins in the happy sighs*

Originally posted by Southern Red View Post

Or a PG evening routine. I mean good grief, even on the commentary they made suggestive comments about the end scene in Coup D'Etat. All you would have to add to that was him telling her not to be long that he would be waiting.

In fact, that's an idea. How would we incorporate Sparky moments of RST into the show as it was written?

Misbegotten: The defending my honor scene. John tells her that it's his job to defend her. "Nobody criticizes someone I love and gets away with it. Nobody."

RAWR! I can get behind that!

**Fionnait** · 13 July 2010, 11:13 AM

Originally posted by Southern Red View Post

In fact, that's an idea. How would we incorporate Sparky moments of RST into the show as it was written?

Misbegotten: The defending my honor scene. John tells her that it's his job to defend her. "Nobody criticizes someone I love and gets away with it. Nobody."

Or how about "Thank you, I appreciate that, but you really don't need to do that." Big kiss!
That's what I'd say to bf. (Probably followed by an "off you go now" and a slap on the bottom, but that would not be very Elizabeth

)

**Killdeer** · 13 July 2010, 11:13 AM

Originally posted by Scary Kitty View Post

Hey, is it just me, or is the quoting function going screwy for anyone else? There's some funky split screen thing going on in the reply box. I don't like it.

Everyone's user names are smaller, too.

Not just you - I thought something was wrong with my computer. *shakes it again*

**VampyreWraith** · 13 July 2010, 11:13 AM

The main reason i think most shows drag ships out is because even though there a lot of people who like romance or relationships on tv and want to see their favorite couple together; i think there may also be a lot more people who really don't care either way if a couple gets together on a show or not and theres also a lot of people who would rather not see any sort of relationship on a show thats is not built around a relationship format. So usually TPTB drag it out with hints and innuendo and try to please everyone so everyone can see what they want.

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