Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Anuna]

You know I can give you an episode by episode count if you wish...

*pets the lemming*

[Fionnait]

You know I can give you an episode by episode count if you wish...

I had forgotten about those! Good old times! I loved your counts, they were so lemming

OT Weather

Spoiler:

Finally, some cool air! *breathes deeply*

[Southern Red]

Well, this show was never big on continuity or character development. Face it, you don't watch SGA for great writing. We watch it because ... well. That's another discussion topic.

On John, I wanted to add that he went through two big cahnges, IMO - I think JF described it well to Martin Firell, he came as a solo guy, and had to learn how to be a team player. That included trusting Elizabeth and respecting her authority, and also being less impulsive. I think he found his ground and his place during S2 and was content, if not happy in S3. Then came S4 and all of that went downhill, because he lost Elizabeth.

So true. He was fighting her at first and going off on tangents doing his own thing and then he learned that she was not his enemy and wouldn't treat him like an underling so he began to trust her. And she learned he wouldn't act like she expected the typical military guy to act and look down on her because she was a woman or disobey her just because he felt like it. She learned to trust him. The conversation at the end of HZ has some of this:

Spoiler:

LATER. ELIZABETH'S OFFICE. Elizabeth and John are in there.

WEIR: Are you OK?

SHEPPARD: Yeah, just a little nuke -- nothin', really.

WEIR: The naqahdah generator plan was very clever. Good work.

SHEPPARD: Thank you. Now, I'm going to bed. (He stands up to leave.)

WEIR: We need to discuss what happened earlier.

SHEPPARD (turning round wearily): Now?

WEIR: That can never happen again.

(John looks at her for a moment, then comes back to the desk and sits down.)

SHEPPARD: Look, I'm sorry about ...

WEIR (interrupting): I understand your expertise in military matters and I agree that I should defer to those expertise in such situations.

SHEPPARD: Thank you!

WEIR: But you are not the one who decides what is and what is not a military situation. Now, both General O'Neill and Colonel Sumner warned me that you don't respect the proper chain of command.

SHEPPARD: Well, sometimes I see a situation a little different than ...

WEIR: No. Listen to me, John. Now, you endangered yourself and the lives of many others.

SHEPPARD: Because I thought it was the best course of action to take -- and, by the way, I saved your ass.

WEIR: I know you did -- but you have to trust me.

SHEPPARD: I do!

WEIR: Do you?

(Rodney and Carson come in.)

*shakes fist at Rodney and Carson* I wish we could have revisited that. Good writers would have done the same thing they did with the trust issues between John and Rodney after Trinity and had them make a few more comments about how he had learned to trust her and vice versa. Fail.

And I noticed that her biggest objection to what he did seems to be that he endangered not only others but himself. And the first thing he thought of to say back was that he saved her ass. I doubt the writers intended to explain that the whole course of action that both of them took was to preserve the life of the other but that's exactly what they did.

[Falcon Horus]

I had forgotten about those! Good old times! I loved your counts, they were so lemming

And yes, you can say it, entirely insane...

But in hindsight, very satisfying.

[Fionnait]

And yes, you can say it, entirely insane...

But in hindsight, very satisfying.

I couldn't call it insane, I was always looking forward to them. It would make me insane, too *g*

[Scary Kitty]

Good afternoon, Sparkies! Happy Canon Monday! And wow, have you all been busy this morning, or what?

OMGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGOD! I don't have time for a proper reply but OMGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGOD!

I'll be glad to deliver that hug to Joe.

Yeah. Suuuuuuuure you'd be glad to...

If she goes next year, I'll meet you there.

Frak yeah! Torri!Fest 2011 or bust!

Appropriate since given what we hear of her background (treaty negotiations, weapons reduction advocate) Elizabeth is most likely a Democrat while John's probably Republican.

That's how I always saw them.

I can kind of see this for John, I sometimes think of his family as kind of like the Kennedys, so in one scenario he could have become a Republican just to pi** his father off.

Heh! I can see that happening, too!

I've thought about Elizabeth's character development and am really disappointed now... I'd never properly thought about it, but she is very much the same person in the end, as she was when she was first introduced. Except maybe for being more ready to use military means in the end. Although, think of First Strike, maybe not. So, apart from developing a bit more confidence, everything that's happened to them in Pegasus does not seem to have much of an impression on her. Fail.

Hmm, I think Elizabeth did become more pragmatic. Would we have seen the Elizabeth of Rising approving the Michael experiment, for instance? Though I admit, that's still a sore subject with me, as I think that story would've worked better if Atlantis had still been cut off from Earth at that point...

I hadn't thought much about it but I think you're right about Rodney. He just never seemed to change unless you count getting mushy over Keller. He would take a step forward and get sensitive or be nice to his friends like in TOR when he healed Ronon's scars and had the tea ceremony for Teyla (another sign of a very well-ordered society BTW) and then he'd turn right around and snark at Zelenka and make fun of Ronon.

John's big change started at the end of FS before the accident when he had the big split with Elizabeth. He was very hurt by her being in total disagreement and I think if he'd had time he would have thought about how totally in agreement they had been for ages and how she surprised him by not taking his side. Then of course with what happened to her his whole world totally fell apart and he was never the same again.

Teyla changed when she became a mom and before that when she was so desperate to get her people back. Even though she had been fighting with the team all those years to help keep her people safe she hadn't had much personal angst until Kanaan went missing and she thought about raising her child alone. She may have had the first little change in the way she thought with the events in Sateda also. Once John convinced her that she and Ronon were family she may have started to relax a little. Then the big mess with Michael in S4 and after just made her feel like she must never let her guard down again. She became first a little harder and then softer with the baby but then when he was in danger the fierce mama bear came out.

Ronon went through stages when he was smart and thought things through a little but then like in DV they always reverted him to caveman. It was frustrating. I guess you could say between Sunday when he said he wasn't ready to date again and the end when he was interested in first Keller and then Banks may show his emotional wounds were healing but they didn't do a good job of showing how he changed. He learned to trust people, first John and the rest of the team and then Elizabeth whom he seemed to have a great deal of affection for.

Elizabeth started out mistrusting the military and grew to rely on John to help her run the city. She also seemed to value Jack's opinion and worked well with Lorne but I think in all cases it was more personal than a change of heart in general. She still didn't trust Caldwell and the other military guys. Otherwise I don't see any big changes because she had her head on straight to start with and was pretty consistent.

Agreed on all of them. I think towards the end, Elizabeth did trust Caldwell to an extent. I see it as him having to do his time earning her trust; we saw her exhibit a similar level of distrust of Ellis when he comes blustering in at FS to what she showed when Caldwell was first introduced.

Agreed, she is an interesting character, but Pegasus has got to make you change somehow.

I'd say getting turned half-Replicator was a pretty significant change. *snorts*

[Anuna]

Fic as promised! My first entry written for otl_fest; called Inspiration. My prompt was "aliens made them do it, they didn't mind". Needless to say, I had tons of fun poking at the ever popular topic of aliens making them FINALLY do it. M rated, so mind my warnings.

Includes few good laughs and a scene with Elizabeth and Teyla that I am incredibly proud of

[VampyreWraith]

IMO, i thought the characters had well developed personalities, but they never really fleshed out or developed the characters enough to explain why they became who they were in Rising and why they reacted a certain way to some things throughout the series. A lot of it was left to the viewers imagination. Thats why i think that Rodney was the most developed, because we learned the most about who he was , and where he came from, his personal realtionships were the most fleshed out(family, and social life). With a lot of the other charaxters I had a lot of unanswered questions. Especially with Elizabeth, we only ever really saw Elizabeth Leader of the Atlantis expedition. We did get some very breif glances at who she was and what shaped her in Home and The Real World, but neither of those were really real, they were in her head. She never really had a nice one on one talk with anyone that wasnt about work but about what she enjoyed. (besides Sunday) Why did she become a diplomat? Does she have any close friends back on Earth? Did she ever talk to Simon again? What was the thing with Simon anyway, I mean they were living together, but how close were they? I have some of the same issues with Teyla, I mean we were constantly told that she was a strong leader of her people, i never really saw it though. Her people were basically missing on screen for 2 yrs before we were told they were missing.
I had more to say but i gotta go for now lol.

[Fionnait]

Hmm, I think Elizabeth did become more pragmatic. Would we have seen the Elizabeth of Rising approving the Michael experiment, for instance? Though I admit, that's still a sore subject with me, as I think that story would've worked better if Atlantis had still been cut off from Earth at that point...

Pragmatic, I agree. But approving that Michael experiment to me is one of the OOC moments I was talking about.

I'd say getting turned half-Replicator was a pretty significant change. *snorts*

Yes, especially because we got to see so much about the ramifications of this major turning point!!!

[Falcon Horus]

I just watched Sateda... Oh, Atlantis season 3 how I missed thee!

Hey, that rhymes...

Anyway, why PTB did you break your show - and my favorite show! WHY?

Now, I must go and contribute to the conversation in the Teyla-thread....

Also, watching Sateda did not improve my mood - blah!

[VampyreWraith]

Pragmatic, I agree. But approving that Michael experiment to me is one of the OOC moments I was talking about.




Yes, especially because we got to see so much about the ramifications of this major turning point!!!

Yeah i found the Elizabeth's and Carson's backing of the whole Micheal thing a bit off, especially once they started to see the side effects.

[VampyreWraith]

Ronon went through stages when he was smart and thought things through a little but then like in DV they always reverted him to caveman. It was frustrating. I guess you could say between Sunday when he said he wasn't ready to date again and the end when he was interested in first Keller and then Banks may show his emotional wounds were healing but they didn't do a good job of showing how he changed. He learned to trust people, first John and the rest of the team and then Elizabeth whom he seemed to have a great deal of affection for.

I always hated when they turned Ronon into the dumb caveman, especially when it was done in order to make another character look good. They did the same thing to John sometimes. First Contact and TLT are the worst episodes for both John and Ronon in terms of making them look dumb.

I actually developed an intense hate for Ronon's stupidity following those episodes, and i usually really liked Ronon. And the whole John lusting/pining over Larrin in the middle of a crisis was beyond aggravating.

[Lythisrose]

I hesitate a bit to bring this up here, as I know the Thread isn't a big fan of Jo Graham, but she posted a bit about John's character development today, so it kind of fits the discussion.
http://jo-graham.livejournal.com/68466.html

Another question about epigrams, the quotations that I use to start books, quotes that tell you something important about what kind of book it is, about its theme and tone. Yes, I will be happy to share the epigrams for Homecoming, The Lost, and Avengers. I'm sorry but I don't know if there will be one for Allegiance. That's up to Melissa and Amy, and I haven't heard what it is yet.

Homecoming:
My candle burns at both ends. It will not last the night.
But oh my foes and oh my friends! It makes a lovely light!
-- Edna St. Vincent Millay


I chose the first one. It's by Edna St. Vincent Millay, a Lost Generation poet who I really love. I've had this one in mind for a long time, because when I watched The Storm and The Eye it came to mind for John. Then, in The Siege, it came to mind again. He is a man who has burned the candle at both ends, never expecting to grow old, never expecting to need the fuel, and giving off a brighter light because of it. But by season five he's tired. The light has dimmed. Has he used himself up? What does he have left? It no longer looks, stuck on Earth at the end of Enemy at the Gate, as though he will burn up in a sudden flash. And so what's left? To burn out?

[Anuna]

*snorts at JG*

To answer her questions - she should rewatch Adrift/Lifeline. And then TMC. And then GitM. And then if she thinks he's either bi, polyamorous or in love with a married woman she should rewatch them again. Lather, rinse, repeat, lol.

But it's a good quote for John. Although I can imagine him getting old, and being alone, or perhaps not completely alone, but feeling lonely in his heart of hearts.

[Scary Kitty]

Fic as promised! My first entry written for otl_fest; called Inspiration. My prompt was "aliens made them do it, they didn't mind". Needless to say, I had tons of fun poking at the ever popular topic of aliens making them FINALLY do it. M rated, so mind my warnings.

Includes few good laughs and a scene with Elizabeth and Teyla that I am incredibly proud of

Go read this fic, Sparkies! It's got lots of smutty Sparky fun!

Pragmatic, I agree. But approving that Michael experiment to me is one of the OOC moments I was talking about.

Indeed, I mentioned how it's a sore point with me. It just seemed so out of place for them to do something so crazy when they had other ways of dealing with the Wraith at hand due to being reconnected with Earth. It just seemed like it was more like the kind of last-ditch effort that I'd expect to see if they had been cut off from Earth for a few years, and the Wraith are closing the noose around them. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and all that. But we don't get that sense from the events of Michael, and thus it really seems to turn Weir and Beckett OOC.

Yes, especially because we got to see so much about the ramifications of this major turning point!!!

Yeah. *sporks TPTW* But we'll be fixing that.

I always hated when they turned Ronon into the dumb caveman, especially when it was done in order to make another character look good. They did the same thing to John sometimes. First Contact and TLT are the worst episodes for both John and Ronon in terms of making them look dumb.

I actually developed an intense hate for Ronon's stupidity following those episodes, and i usually really liked Ronon. And the whole John lusting/pining over Larrin in the middle of a crisis was beyond aggravating.

Oh, I hear you! The dumbing down of John and shoving his ATA gene under the rug were two of my biggest pet peeves about the later seasons. And don't get me started on Larrin and her pseudo-dominatrix act.

Ronon... gah, what can I say? I'm still struck by how different Ronon seemed in the flashbacks in Sateda when he was with Melena. Fine-looking clothes, a nice house... We know he was part of the Satedan military, but was he career military, or was he planning on doing something else when his term was up, and what? It couldn't all have been submerged under his survival mentality during his time as a Runner...

I hesitate a bit to bring this up here, as I know the Thread isn't a big fan of Jo Graham, but she posted a bit about John's character development today, so it kind of fits the discussion.
http://jo-graham.livejournal.com/68466.html

That's probably the first thing she's gotten anywhere close to correct. But Anuna's right, Sheppard's real downward slide didn't come until after Adrift/Lifeline. Up until then, he seemed to be pretty steady in a feeling of general contentment with his life in Atlantis. Once he'd taken the blow of losing Elizabeth, however...