Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Falcon Horus]

Good luck with the whole discussion...you're braver than I.

I'm no braver than the cookies make me... ...but I'm at my best behavior, polite and friendly.

[KrisRussel]

Gah! I misspoke, I meant to say Shore Leave (in relation to relaying messages to Torri). My bad. (just for the record, no, Joe's not scheduled for Dragon*Con this year) Though I've got to say, I didn't feel at all rushed at Joe's autograph session in LA last November.

Yeah, our little band of Torri fans is hoping to be able to talk to her "in private".
We're all crossing our fingers... and our toes, just to make sure

Lol, I never feel rushed at the Autograph session at Fedcon, but the ebil helpers rush you *pouts*

Can I get editing rights, too? Or do I have them already? I maintain a lot of the journal as well.

Yup, will contact you about it.

[Anuna]

Bring on the cookies my dearies... link to comment

Spoiler:

Hi, there's something here that caught my eye that sparked a little "Hey, wait a minute..."-kind of feeling in the back of my head.

You meantion (and let me quote you here a little):

He's forty or so. Has he been sitting around for the last forty years waiting for Michael to kidnap him or be noticed by Teyla?

According to a snippet from The Kindred part I (though at first not sure it actually happened in the show, and this is coming from the person who's seen every episode of Atlantis at least 5 times) which is a conversation between Carter and Teyla, there's the revelation Teyla and Kanaan knew each other since childhood:

CARTER: I wanna believe you, Teyla, but I'm a scientist. I'm trained to think critically.

TEYLA: There is a possible explanation. Kanaan has the Gift – the same ability that I do.

CARTER: The Wraith D.N.A.?

TEYLA: Yes. Among my people, the Gift is considered useful, but it also sets one apart. It can be difficult. Kanaan was the only one who could truly understand what it felt like.

CARTER: It brought you together.

TEYLA: It is something we have shared since childhood.

****

And as I copy and paste that, I remember a conversation between Keller and Teyla from Missing (those repeated viewings are paying off after all):

KELLER: So, this friend of yours – one of your team members? A certain uptight astro-physicist, maybe?

TEYLA: No. Athosian. His name is Kanaan. A natural leader, but he isn't aware of it. Burdened by an overly-cautious nature. (She looks down sadly.)

KELLER: He's more than a friend, isn't he? He's the one you were coming to see – on a hot date.

(Teyla looks away, sighing.)

KELLER: Sorry – it's none of my business. I should just learn to shut up.

TEYLA: We have known each other since childhood, but only recently condoled more than a friendship. (She looks at Jennifer.) I have not told anyone yet.

KELLER (sympathetically): I'm so sorry.

****

So, you can imagine I'm a tad bit confused about the Kanaan you're picturing there. =S

In fanfiction anything is possible of course - hell, I have to do a lot rewriting of canon myself (although there's surprisingly a lot to work with canon-wise - if you can call 5 episodes a lot anyway) - but you meantion the Legacy series, so I assuming (if incorrect or misreading please do not hesitate to tell me so) that what you write here will be partially (or completely) used to create Kanaan's backstory and in his relation towards Teyla.

Anyway... I just thought I'd point it out, although you're probably aware of it (in that case forget everything I said - I wasn't here ). If not, well now you know.

Heck, Falcon, i'll make you an entire cake. If either of us made this comment she'd dismiss us as people with suspicious ship interests. At least you're not burdened with that. If i ever left a comment over there, I'd do it using John/Elizabeth icon, just to sting her eyes and tastes.

Also, I just can't wrap my head around one thing - Athosians can be poly-amorous all they want, but come on. has she (JG) ever actually seen John? I keep thinking about JF interview and everything he said, and I think he has pretty solid family values in his head. Which is something I love, and I think and feel he put those same core values into John, which is why I can't possibly imagine John as a homewrecker.

[Scary Kitty]

Heck, Falcon, i'll make you an entire cake. If either of us made this comment she'd dismiss us as people with suspicious ship interests. At least you're not burdened with that. If i ever left a comment over there, I'd do it using John/Elizabeth icon, just to sting her eyes and tastes.

*snerks*

Also, I just can't wrap my head around one thing - Athosians can be poly-amorous all they want, but come on. has she (JG) ever actually seen John? I keep thinking about JF interview and everything he said, and I think he has pretty solid family values in his head. Which is something I love, and I think and feel he put those same core values into John, which is why I can't possibly imagine John as a homewrecker.

Exactly! It's like I've said before; yes, John can be a rule breaker, but we have NEVER seen him break a rule for his own personal gain (the Vegas AU has John operating under very different circumstances from the main timeline, so it doesn't count). Knowingly and willingly becoming a homewrecker just to get the hot mama would be a gross violation of John's personal code of honor. Anyone who actually thinks he'd do it doesn't know the character at all.

[KrisRussel]

Ok, I'm re-watching SG1 and I was just wondering about something... every time Daniel gets revived by a sarcophagus, he puts his glasses back on, but isn't the thing supposed to fully heal you, which would mean that he wouldn't need his glasses anymore, right? Or is that just me?

[Anuna]

*snerks*



Exactly! It's like I've said before; yes, John can be a rule breaker, but we have NEVER seen him break a rule for his own personal gain (the Vegas AU has John operating under very different circumstances from the main timeline, so it doesn't count). Knowingly and willingly becoming a homewrecker just to get the hot mama would be a gross violation of John's personal code of honor. Anyone who actually thinks he'd do it doesn't know the character at all.

IMO, the thing Vegas!John did with the money shows the progress of his... how to word it, dammit - deterioration? Vegas!John is a wreck. He is a glove turned inside out, still the same man, but a very dark version of him. Yet, he still has some honor in him left, which is what final scenes are about. He dies for a cause that wasn't his cause at all, and he wouldn't be pulled into it, if there was nothing good left in him. Do I make any sense at all?

[KrisRussel]

IMO, the thing Vegas!John did with the money shows the progress of his... how to word it, dammit - deterioration? Vegas!John is a wreck. He is a glove turned inside out, still the same man, but a very dark version of him. Yet, he still has some honor in him left, which is what final scenes are about. He dies for a cause that wasn't his cause at all, and he wouldn't be pulled into it, if there was nothing good left in him. Do I make any sense at all?

True. And also, even though he was a wreck and stole the money, he didn't actually hurt anyone with his actions. So he really wouldn't hurt anyone for his own gain as his normal self...

[Falcon Horus]

I received a reply - think of it what you will:

Spoiler:

Well, yes. I don't see that there's any contradiction. They've known each other since childhood. And he's done and been a lot of things since then. He's been married to someone he loved, he's had a family, he's had a profession. Teyla is an old friend, a childhood friend who until recently was not an important part of his life.

Just as she's been married and had an entirely different life of her own. They have taken very separate paths, and one thing that's a question at this point is whether or not they are now walking the same path, and whether or not they want to. As someone that age, who has friends I've known since childhood, you have to ask -- if you didn't get together twenty five years ago, why not? If you didn't get together twenty years ago, why not? If you didn't get together fifteen years ago, why not? If you didn't get together ten years ago, why not? If you didn't get together five years ago, why not? Every one of those questions has to be meaningfully answered. Either something kept them apart for twenty five years, or at earlier points they didn't want to. Whichever it is, it has to be addressed as a central point because it has to be a huge issue in their relationship.

Is it something cultural? For example, was one of them party to an infant arranged marriage, rendering them unavailable? Are the of the same house or clan, and therefore forbidden to marry, as is the case in some Native American tribes? Were they parted by some accident or tragedy? Or did one of them simply make a terrible mistake?

Or, if there is no barrier, what were the reasons they repeatedly for twenty five years chose not to be together? Those reasons must have been pretty compelling to decide over and over again that they weren't going to do this. What changed? What happened suddenly to make them decide something contrary to the previous twenty five years of decisions? It must have been something of incredible importance. So what is it? Why did it happen and what happened to all the reasons they didn't do this before? Are those reasons still here? If they're not, what happened to them? Why did they suddenly become unimportant?

The idea that Teyla has known Kanaan all her life, rather than that he's someone she just met, makes the relationship both interesting and problematic. After all, one might decide to get into a relationship suddenly with someone one had just met. What makes one revisit a relationship that one has had the opportunity to have for twenty five years, and that for whatever reason one has repeatedly rejected, and suddenly decide it's a good idea?

So that has to be a major plot point, something that we've had to consider carefully!

And my reply - I kept it short:

Spoiler:

So that has to be a major plot point, something that we've had to consider carefully!

I can see from your reply why that is... although I have to say that I'm probably inclined to go with a different version of backstory. But I'll leave that to my fanfic.

Thanks for the reply, and I hope that all of those questions will eventually find an answer.

Heck, Falcon, i'll make you an entire cake.

Thanks...

*****

Ok, I'm re-watching SG1 and I was just wondering about something... every time Daniel gets revived by a sarcophagus, he puts his glasses back on, but isn't the thing supposed to fully heal you, which would mean that he wouldn't need his glasses anymore, right? Or is that just me?

In Need when he used the sarcophagus multiple times he eventually didn't need his glasses anymore, but indeed it should heal his eyes after one session too I guess. Plothole?

[Infinite-Possibilities]

I think the sarcophagus heals you according to how the body reacts to certain injuries. Jack had been essentially made into Jaffa (sans symbiote) by Hathor and the sarcophagus cleared up his pouch instantly. Teal'c however was never healed of his Jaffa attributes. SO believe it was because his body had long adjusted to carrying a symbiote and because Jack's still reacted to it as a wound. So since Daniel's near-sightedness is sort of normal for him it isn't cured by one session in the sarcophagus.

[Anuna]

I received a reply - think of it what you will:

Spoiler:

Well, yes. I don't see that there's any contradiction. They've known each other since childhood. And he's done and been a lot of things since then. He's been married to someone he loved, he's had a family, he's had a profession. Teyla is an old friend, a childhood friend who until recently was not an important part of his life.

Just as she's been married and had an entirely different life of her own. They have taken very separate paths, and one thing that's a question at this point is whether or not they are now walking the same path, and whether or not they want to. As someone that age, who has friends I've known since childhood, you have to ask -- if you didn't get together twenty five years ago, why not? If you didn't get together twenty years ago, why not? If you didn't get together fifteen years ago, why not? If you didn't get together ten years ago, why not? If you didn't get together five years ago, why not? Every one of those questions has to be meaningfully answered. Either something kept them apart for twenty five years, or at earlier points they didn't want to. Whichever it is, it has to be addressed as a central point because it has to be a huge issue in their relationship.

Is it something cultural? For example, was one of them party to an infant arranged marriage, rendering them unavailable? Are the of the same house or clan, and therefore forbidden to marry, as is the case in some Native American tribes? Were they parted by some accident or tragedy? Or did one of them simply make a terrible mistake?

Or, if there is no barrier, what were the reasons they repeatedly for twenty five years chose not to be together? Those reasons must have been pretty compelling to decide over and over again that they weren't going to do this. What changed? What happened suddenly to make them decide something contrary to the previous twenty five years of decisions? It must have been something of incredible importance. So what is it? Why did it happen and what happened to all the reasons they didn't do this before? Are those reasons still here? If they're not, what happened to them? Why did they suddenly become unimportant?

The idea that Teyla has known Kanaan all her life, rather than that he's someone she just met, makes the relationship both interesting and problematic. After all, one might decide to get into a relationship suddenly with someone one had just met. What makes one revisit a relationship that one has had the opportunity to have for twenty five years, and that for whatever reason one has repeatedly rejected, and suddenly decide it's a good idea?

So that has to be a major plot point, something that we've had to consider carefully!

And my reply - I kept it short:

Spoiler:

So that has to be a major plot point, something that we've had to consider carefully!

I can see from your reply why that is... although I have to say that I'm probably inclined to go with a different version of backstory. But I'll leave that to my fanfic.

Thanks for the reply, and I hope that all of those questions will eventually find an answer.

Thanks...

*****



In Need when he used the sarcophagus multiple times he eventually didn't need his glasses anymore, but indeed it should heal his eyes after one session too I guess. Plothole?

Pffffft is all I have to say. She is pushing it way too far, with one sole agenda, to dininish the importance of Kanaan and thus point out who Teyla's twoooo wuv is. And about that, I'd ask what happened to five years of solid decisions, responsibilities and leader - teammate relationship. IMO, her logic is faulty. maybe Teyla wanted to be the leader and thus decided not to have a family? That would make a damn fine parallel between Elizabeth and her, since obviously both have given up on personal life in order to pursue higher goals. And perhaps Kanaan was one of the people who supported Teyla's decision.

Heck, why don't I just write a fic myself?

[Southern Red]

I received a reply - think of it what you will:

Spoiler:

Well, yes. I don't see that there's any contradiction. They've known each other since childhood. And he's done and been a lot of things since then. He's been married to someone he loved, he's had a family, he's had a profession. Teyla is an old friend, a childhood friend who until recently was not an important part of his life.

Just as she's been married and had an entirely different life of her own. They have taken very separate paths, and one thing that's a question at this point is whether or not they are now walking the same path, and whether or not they want to. As someone that age, who has friends I've known since childhood, you have to ask -- if you didn't get together twenty five years ago, why not? If you didn't get together twenty years ago, why not? If you didn't get together fifteen years ago, why not? If you didn't get together ten years ago, why not? If you didn't get together five years ago, why not? Every one of those questions has to be meaningfully answered. Either something kept them apart for twenty five years, or at earlier points they didn't want to. Whichever it is, it has to be addressed as a central point because it has to be a huge issue in their relationship.

Is it something cultural? For example, was one of them party to an infant arranged marriage, rendering them unavailable? Are the of the same house or clan, and therefore forbidden to marry, as is the case in some Native American tribes? Were they parted by some accident or tragedy? Or did one of them simply make a terrible mistake?

Or, if there is no barrier, what were the reasons they repeatedly for twenty five years chose not to be together? Those reasons must have been pretty compelling to decide over and over again that they weren't going to do this. What changed? What happened suddenly to make them decide something contrary to the previous twenty five years of decisions? It must have been something of incredible importance. So what is it? Why did it happen and what happened to all the reasons they didn't do this before? Are those reasons still here? If they're not, what happened to them? Why did they suddenly become unimportant?

The idea that Teyla has known Kanaan all her life, rather than that he's someone she just met, makes the relationship both interesting and problematic. After all, one might decide to get into a relationship suddenly with someone one had just met. What makes one revisit a relationship that one has had the opportunity to have for twenty five years, and that for whatever reason one has repeatedly rejected, and suddenly decide it's a good idea?

So that has to be a major plot point, something that we've had to consider carefully!

And my reply - I kept it short:

Spoiler:

So that has to be a major plot point, something that we've had to consider carefully!

I can see from your reply why that is... although I have to say that I'm probably inclined to go with a different version of backstory. But I'll leave that to my fanfic.

Thanks for the reply, and I hope that all of those questions will eventually find an answer.

Thanks...

*****



In Need when he used the sarcophagus multiple times he eventually didn't need his glasses anymore, but indeed it should heal his eyes after one session too I guess. Plothole?

Her reply says nothing. The question is not why they got together after 25 years but why are they breaking up. And in addition how can he be 40 and Teyla much younger and they still be childhood friends? Plus JM said that Teyla realized that the person she was meant to be with had been right there all along. That to me explains why they got together. Someone you have that much history with is not going to be just your baby daddy like she is making him. She seems to have forgotten that they made a baby together and have been raising him together. So I'd have to ask her what changed?

[KrisRussel]

I received a reply - think of it what you will:

25 years?? So what, Athosians get married and have kids when they're 15 or 16? That must mean that all their first families and kids get killed, because from what we've seen in the show there were no young parents with young children. The parents we have seen all looked in their late 20s, early/mid 30s with kids that were barely older than 10...
And where does she get her information that Kanaan and Teyla were married to other people and had kids at one point? Because as far as I know nothing in canon gives the slightest hint to that. You'd think Teyla would mention her killed children and the husband she loved and lost at least once in the five years we've seen her live her life in Atlantis.
But I'm just glad she didn't use the polyamorous word *headdesk*

In Need when he used the sarcophagus multiple times he eventually didn't need his glasses anymore, but indeed it should heal his eyes after one session too I guess. Plothole?

Yup, plothole much?

[KrisRussel]

I think the sarcophagus heals you according to how the body reacts to certain injuries. Jack had been essentially made into Jaffa (sans symbiote) by Hathor and the sarcophagus cleared up his pouch instantly. Teal'c however was never healed of his Jaffa attributes. SO believe it was because his body had long adjusted to carrying a symbiote and because Jack's still reacted to it as a wound. So since Daniel's near-sightedness is sort of normal for him it isn't cured by one session in the sarcophagus.

Lol, you actually make it sounds plausible
Or maybe Teal'c's pouch not healing had something to do with plothole writing too, because I really don't see tptb think this through like this

[Anuna]

Her reply says nothing. The question is not why they got together after 25 years but why are they breaking up. And in addition how can he be 40 and Teyla much younger and they still be childhood friends? Plus JM said that Teyla realized that the person she was meant to be with had been right there all along. That to me explains why they got together. Someone you have that much history with is not going to be just your baby daddy like she is making him. She seems to have forgotten that they made a baby together and have been raising him together. So I'd have to ask her what changed?

Nothing has changed. Our beloved JG sounds like a politician. Not a particularly good one, though. Also, Falcon pointed out one thing that's obviously not fitting that same canon she is swearing at so often, so the best thing to do is avoid the issue alltogether. Right?

[Anuna]

25 years?? So what, Athosians get married and have kids when they're 15 or 16? That must mean that all their first families and kids get killed, because from what we've seen in the show there were no young parents with young children. The parents we have seen all looked in their late 20s, early/mid 30s with kids that were barely older than 10...
And where does she get her information that Kanaan and Teyla were married to other people and had kids at one point? Because as far as I know nothing in canon gives the slightest hint to that. You'd think Teyla would mention her killed children and the husband she loved and lost at least once in the five years we've seen her live her life in Atlantis.
But I'm just glad she didn't use the polyamorous word *headdesk*



Yup, plothole much?

Well, I'm wondering why nobody in fandom is raising the question of underage marriages JG's posts and logic are obviously implying. Yes, i know high mortality rate and all that, but come on. Also, hadn't Teyla said that there weren't any Wraith attacks since... five generations or so? then there is nor eal need to procreate at the speed of lightening.

The bottom line is that her answer makes no sense in regard to the question that was asked, and FH had proven that JG doesn't respect the canon (and it's blatantly obvious) when it doesn't suit her agenda.