Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Probie]

Oh, you are very clear. And we never saw any character loss have an impact on anyone. For example, Peter Grodin was very close to Elizabeth. He was essentially her assistant. Why did we never hear her say how much she missed him or how Chuck was doing a good job but she still missed Peter? Then we had Rodney writing a book about Elizabeth yet after she was gone he's all excited about possibly getting her job and giving Sam flowers. I could go on and on. If it hadn't been for Joe's face acting we never would have seen anyone show any change at all after losing her or anyone else. I feel a rant coming on but it's all been said before and can be summed up by badwritingbadwritingbadwriting.

Thank you. It's what I wanted to say. I was clear so I'm happy.lol

Ironic that they're talking about Mallozzi being the next to go... apparently, he's been talking more lately about what he'd like to do when he leaves Stargate, and apparently he (and I think Mullie) has been working on a comic book story that's been getting some attention. So who knows? Mallozzi may indeed be the next to go, if he's lining up outside work...

Yes they also want to see Brad leave the franchise and they' don't want t movie. Just want to keep good souvenirs. In general, french fans (on this forum) didn't want to see a season 4 or 5.lol
It's a good thing if TPTB never came in France because the reactions of fans would be hard for them.lol

Anyway, i don't want to lose my point - the darkest aspect of new and not improved SGA is John, because of the way JF chose to play him, and because of few other things, including moments like 'Miller's Crossing', or his initial reaction to Teyla's pregnancy; but I think the way JF played him is the main and biggest reason. Sometimes the episodes were 'light', and there were funny moemnts, but JF always kept the sadder, darker undertones.

Can you explain me what you think about his reaction of Teyla's pregnancy? I'm curious because I don't know how to interpret this.

[Anuna]

Yes he did. And he is certainly the only reason I stayed around to the end. Vegas was worth it for a number of reasons.

"Vegas" is Atlantis without Atlantis. Again, Eri inspired me. It's a brilliant ep, and may I add, RCC gave a huge nod to sparky there, without even realizing it. He wrote an episode about quiessential John, and I guess it's not surprising to find such a strong link between established love that Vegas!John lost and (not)established love our John had lost. It's a too strong parallel, never mind the identity of the nurse. Bottom line, Elizabeth is one of the things that defines John in an essential way.

[Southern Red]

"Vegas" is Atlantis without Atlantis. Again, Eri inspired me. It's a brilliant ep, and may I add, RCC gave a huge nod to sparky there, without even realizing it. He wrote an episode about quiessential John, and I guess it's not surprising to find such a strong link between established love that Vegas!John lost and (not)established love our John had lost. It's a too strong parallel, never mind the identity of the nurse. Bottom line, Elizabeth is one of the things that defines John in an essential way.

Boy you are so right about that. There may not have been any mention of her in Vegas but she was just there in the background the whole time. Take the woobie!John face at the end of GitM and carry that over to Vegas. Wow, I wish Vegas had been the next ep after that one. Can you imagine the fan reaction? Even the few people left who didn't see the Sparky connection would have finally gotten it. LOL

[Anuna]

Can you explain me what you think about his reaction of Teyla's pregnancy? I'm curious because I don't know how to interpret this.

I think John was focused on losses. He kept losing things that were essential for his life - not only Elizabeth and Carson, but a way of life in Atlantis. Teyla is a constant in his life too, she is a friend and a teammate and then suddenly she is hiding something so important from him; but not only that, she is putting herself and the life of her child in danger, right under his nose and he couldn't do anything about that. That's quite enough to drive him nuts.

More so, there is an entire part of Teyla's life, a rather important part, that John knows nothing of (while Ronon does!). I think his reaction was caused by yet another loss he was bound to face - she wouldn't be on his team any more, her priorities would change, their relationship would change. Apart from that he also felt jealous, which is completely normal (and in my opinion has nothing to do with romance. If you have a friend and your friend suddenly finds a better friend, and doesn't tell you anything about it/or even if he/she does, you'll feel considerable jealousy).

John had to deal with all that, and only then could be happy for her. "Quarantine" is one of the episodes that shows that remarkably well.

Imagine if Elizabeth wasn't gone - if all this happened with her still being the leader and present in John's life. I doubt his reaction would be so drastic and dramatic like this. Again, we go back to the main reason why he became a darker character. It all starts with Adrift/Lifeline. (and that is why I go baths*t crazy when people claim point blank that John and Elizabeth didn't have a canon relationship. They did. How you choose to call it - friendship or something more - is just a matter of semantics).

[Anuna]

Boy you are so right about that. There may not have been any mention of her in Vegas but she was just there in the background the whole time. Take the woobie!John face at the end of GitM and carry that over to Vegas. Wow, I wish Vegas had been the next ep after that one. Can you imagine the fan reaction? Even the few people left who didn't see the Sparky connection would have finally gotten it. LOL

You know what, I'll try watching those two tomorrow; Vegas right after GitM. Then I'll tell you if anything else comes to mind. Right now I just inspired myself for another meta discussion.

[Probie]

I think John was focused on losses. He kept losing things thatw ere essential for his life - not only Elizabeth and Carson, but a way of life in Atlantis. teyla is a constant in his life too, she is a friend and a teammate and then suddenly she is hiding something so important from him; but not only that, she is putting herself and the life of her child in danger. More so, there is an entire part of Teyla's life, a rather important part, that John knows nothing of (while Ronon does!). I think his reaction was caused by yet another loss he was bound to face - she wouldn't be on his team any more, her priorities would change, their relationship would change. Apart from that he also felt jealous, which is completely normal (and in my opinion has nothing to dow ith romance. If you ahve a friend and your friend suddenly finds a better friend, and doesn't tell you anything about it, you'll feel considerable jealousy).

John had to deal with all that, and only then could be happy for her. "Quarantine" is one of the episodes that shows that remarkably well.

Imagine if Elizabeth wasn't gone - if all this happened with her still being the elader and present in John's life. I doubt his reaction would be so drastic and dramatic like this. Again, we go back to the main reason why he became a darker character. It all starts with Adrift/Lifeline. (and that is why I go baths*t crazy when people clain point blank that John and Elizabeth didn't have a canon relationship. They did. How you choose to call it - friendship or something more - is just a matter of semantics).

Very interesting. I didn't see it like this. I also didn't see it like something romantic (like the other ship wants to say). I should watch this episode again. No I should watch the entire season 4 with some detachment. I'm sure I will see some things differently. Thanks to give me your point of view.

[Anuna]

Very interesting.

In a good or bad way, lol?

[Probie]

In a good or bad way, lol?

I have some problem with GW. I have to write my post twice and it starts to annoy me. I have to post first and "edit" to put the rest of my post so you have the entire one now.lol
I don't think you missed something.lol

[Southern Red]

I think John was focused on losses. He kept losing things that were essential for his life - not only Elizabeth and Carson, but a way of life in Atlantis. Teyla is a constant in his life too, she is a friend and a teammate and then suddenly she is hiding something so important from him; but not only that, she is putting herself and the life of her child in danger, right under his nose and he couldn't do anything about that. That's quite enough to drive him nuts.

More so, there is an entire part of Teyla's life, a rather important part, that John knows nothing of (while Ronon does!). I think his reaction was caused by yet another loss he was bound to face - she wouldn't be on his team any more, her priorities would change, their relationship would change. Apart from that he also felt jealous, which is completely normal (and in my opinion has nothing to do with romance. If you have a friend and your friend suddenly finds a better friend, and doesn't tell you anything about it/or even if he/she does, you'll feel considerable jealousy).

John had to deal with all that, and only then could be happy for her. "Quarantine" is one of the episodes that shows that remarkably well.

Imagine if Elizabeth wasn't gone - if all this happened with her still being the leader and present in John's life. I doubt his reaction would be so drastic and dramatic like this. Again, we go back to the main reason why he became a darker character. It all starts with Adrift/Lifeline. (and that is why I go baths*t crazy when people claim point blank that John and Elizabeth didn't have a canon relationship. They did. How you choose to call it - friendship or something more - is just a matter of semantics).

There is even backup for this in canon. Remember in Reunion when Ronon tells John he is leaving Atlantis? We get this face.

Spoiler:

This isn't long after his conversation with Carter about finding Elizabeth. John has had about all the loss he can take and this proves it. Then just when he thinks the team is secure it starts all over again with Teyla. Too much.

Now I gotta go make Mr. SR's Father's Day dinner....steak and twice baked potatoes, what else?

[Scary Kitty]

"Vegas" is Atlantis without Atlantis. Again, Eri inspired me. It's a brilliant ep, and may I add, RCC gave a huge nod to sparky there, without even realizing it. He wrote an episode about quiessential John, and I guess it's not surprising to find such a strong link between established love that Vegas!John lost and (not)established love our John had lost. It's a too strong parallel, never mind the identity of the nurse. Bottom line, Elizabeth is one of the things that defines John in an essential way.

I couldn't have said that better myself!

Boy you are so right about that. There may not have been any mention of her in Vegas but she was just there in the background the whole time. Take the woobie!John face at the end of GitM and carry that over to Vegas. Wow, I wish Vegas had been the next ep after that one. Can you imagine the fan reaction? Even the few people left who didn't see the Sparky connection would have finally gotten it. LOL

Damn, I'm with Anuna; we've got to watch those two together! Hmm, idea for a post-a-thon, methinks... Now I just need a copy of GitM.

I think John was focused on losses. He kept losing things that were essential for his life - not only Elizabeth and Carson, but a way of life in Atlantis. Teyla is a constant in his life too, she is a friend and a teammate and then suddenly she is hiding something so important from him; but not only that, she is putting herself and the life of her child in danger, right under his nose and he couldn't do anything about that. That's quite enough to drive him nuts.

More so, there is an entire part of Teyla's life, a rather important part, that John knows nothing of (while Ronon does!). I think his reaction was caused by yet another loss he was bound to face - she wouldn't be on his team any more, her priorities would change, their relationship would change. Apart from that he also felt jealous, which is completely normal (and in my opinion has nothing to do with romance. If you have a friend and your friend suddenly finds a better friend, and doesn't tell you anything about it/or even if he/she does, you'll feel considerable jealousy).

John had to deal with all that, and only then could be happy for her. "Quarantine" is one of the episodes that shows that remarkably well.

*nods* His family was broken in Season 4. It kinda sorta came back together in Season 5, but with Elizabeth still gone, Rodney making goo-goo eyes with Keller, Teyla having her own family to connect to, Ronon flirting via kickboxing with Amelia Banks, and Carson running around doing his Doctors Without Borders thing, it was never the same again. No wonder John looked so lonely.

Imagine if Elizabeth wasn't gone - if all this happened with her still being the leader and present in John's life. I doubt his reaction would be so drastic and dramatic like this. Again, we go back to the main reason why he became a darker character. It all starts with Adrift/Lifeline. (and that is why I go baths*t crazy when people claim point blank that John and Elizabeth didn't have a canon relationship. They did. How you choose to call it - friendship or something more - is just a matter of semantics).

Exactly. There's just no denying that there is a powerful emotional connection between John and Elizabeth, whether it's close friendship or romantic love. Anyone who denies that connection exists is just deluding themselves.

There is even backup for this in canon. Remember in Reunion when Ronon tells John he is leaving Atlantis? We get this face.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...tl_403_455.jpg

This isn't long after his conversation with Carter about finding Elizabeth. John has had about all the loss he can take and this proves it. Then just when he thinks the team is secure it starts all over again with Teyla. Too much.

Now I gotta go make Mr. SR's Father's Day dinner....steak and twice baked potatoes, what else?

And some people actually think that the dark, depressed John of Seasons 4 and 5 was out of place. Bah!

[M-CharmedAlantian]

God it's been a long time since I was last here. High School is thankfully coming to an end... at least for now. We have a VERY short summer that is only six weeks instead of the usual two months and it completely sucks. Anyway every now and then I come over and "peruse" the site to see what's been going on and I'm still glad that you guys are still working on the Sparky Virtual Season Six and how is it going?

[Scary Kitty]

God it's been a long time since I was last here. High School is thankfully coming to an end... at least for now. We have a VERY short summer that is only six weeks instead of the usual two months and it completely sucks. Anyway every now and then I come over and "peruse" the site to see what's been going on and I'm still glad that you guys are still working on the Sparky Virtual Season Six and how is it going?

Summer vacation is only SIX WEEKS?!?!? That is just so WRONG! I'd be climbing the walls if I had ever had to go back to school that soon!

As for how the virtual season project is going, we've decided on our official name (Atlantis Rising: The Virtual Series) and we're getting to the end of our discussion on the last few episodes that will wrap up the main storylines for the season (the Wraith retrovirus, Elizabeth's recovery) before discussing the season finale, which will set up next season. Then, hopefully, we start writing!

[Infinite-Possibilities]

Ah, this old Seasons 4/5 conversation. I know that I generally had an opinion that was often in the minority here but I always appreciated I could have a reasonable discussion here. Although I often wonder how I can have most of the exact complaints about seasons 4 and 5 as you guys and still like them. I figure it largely comes down to interpretation of what was happening onscreen.

I do agree with you about Elizabeth's presence though. I think the thing that made the later seasons feel darker was not only the changes in John due to Elizabeth's departure but the very fact that she wasn't there cast a very different tone over the overall chemistry of the cast. Now the way they often handled her void (in season 4 in particular) was sort of as "The unspoken elephant in the room" rather than addressing it head on like it should have been handled. And that caused no small amount of frustration in me but still, the principle of Atlantis and John in particular needing to stand up to all the new challenges without the support of Elizabeth was something that interested me quite a lot as a viewer. I think in a lot of ways Elizabeth and John sort of relied on each other keep their moral compasses straight, after she was captured both of them started to lose their way a little more often. And they had struggled with a number of moral choices even before that, and one thing that I felt made the show more "human" was that occasionally the protagonists were fallible enough to make dubious or perhaps wrong choices.

Generally, I've been a fan of shows taking a darker turn. It's just my personal taste of course but many of my favorite pieces of television have been where the heroes suddenly have their status quo shattered and suddenly have to deal with some sort of new danger on a different level than what they'd previously triumphed over. Actually I'd probably have to go back to Transformers to cite some of the best examples of that. But my point is that when I was growing up, well executed "darker turns"were arguably the most powerful television that I ever watched. And I found the subtle loss of innocence from before Adrift to after to be up there with some of my favorite TV.

At the same time, I can see why certain fans might be disappointed by the change. In addition to the fact that I know that not everybody likes darker turns, I've also learned over the years that even for a fan of it, a show going darker doesn't automatically make it better.

Battlestar is a show that I've really enjoyed over the years. I've seen up to the end of the third season and while I've begun to notice a number of serious flaws in the narrative, I still can say I love the show. But BSG is a show that is really pretty exceptionally far on the er... "dark-o-meter", I think a show can still be "dark" without being that dark.

Anyway The main defining thing about Stargate: Atlantis in my mind is probably this sense of pervasive inconsistency. In many areas, such as how dark or light it is or how strong or weak the writing is. In season 5 especially I think The PTB manged to include some of their very best and very worst stuff. And I think the writers are probably the biggest aspect of that because all of the writers all have a lot of excellence and stupidity to their credit. So I don't think any of them can really be dismissed as "good" or "bad."

*phew* I think that was everything I had meant to type. That took a while to post.

[Probie]

Day of music today. It's a day to do "fiesta en la calle". Take your guitars, ukulélés, drums, pianos or what you want. It's time for the Atlantis Rising Band to be famous, guys.

[Southern Red]

Anyway The main defining thing about Stargate: Atlantis in my mind is probably this sense of pervasive inconsistency. In many areas, such as how dark or light it is or how strong or weak the writing is. In season 5 especially I think The PTB manged to include some of their very best and very worst stuff. And I think the writers are probably the biggest aspect of that because all of the writers all have a lot of excellence and stupidity to their credit. So I don't think any of them can really be dismissed as "good" or "bad."

*phew* I think that was everything I had meant to type. That took a while to post.

Pervasive inconsistency. I love that phrase. That just perfectly sums up the whole show. And IMHO, any out of character moments can be placed right at the feet of the writers, not the actors. I wish I had time to try to think of some of those but let me just say, none of them occurred when John was with Elizabeth. It all boils down to the roles we play, I think. We could not have expected John to act the same way toward her he did, let's say, Rodney. And he had a very different demeanor with Ronon, more of a military to military guy thing than with Rodney. Teyla, I think spooked him a little at first because she was an alien in his mind but then he saw to her heart and she became a friend which is why I think he dropped the flirting relatively soon and started treating her like an equal. Elizabeth was a bit more difficult for him and their relationship changed irrevocably with Hot Zone. Once they got on a first name basis, it put her more on the level of an equal in John's mind and by that time he had gained enough confidence to assert himself as perhaps a co-leader. I think he read her correctly in that she didn't look down on him or ignore his opinions. Then they became friends and it was at that point that I think, being a guy, he just didn't think about it anymore. She became just "Elizabeth" to him and he started thinking of her as family. Then when it all went sideways he was lost and didn't know what to think anymore but the dire circumstances they were in didn't give him much time for contemplation. That's my take on it.

And with that I'll say that I will be going to visit my brother today and will be back late on Wednesday. I hope you have pages and pages for me to catch up on.