Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[gateraid]

It definitely appears to be a two-part system. I keep thinking back to what Weir told O'Neill in Rising about others on the Antarctica research team who had the gene and could make the technology work, but they had to really concentrate, whereas Sheppard could just do it instinctively.

That's a good point. Unfortunately the process is a bit fuzzy, I guess the writers didn't want to box themselves in to anything

Another excellent point. Though the Carter fans may want to burn you at the stake for even suggesting it.

If you look at her behaviour in, say, Zero Hour, she is severely lacking in confidence. And even in The Seer, which is supposed to be her 'breakthrough SGA ep', she's pretty much doing the same thing. I'm not sayinbg I think she's depressed, just that I can see it more in her than Shep. Maybe that's because Shep is a guy and just hides it better *shrugs*

As for the stake burning, I like Carter, so I they want to burn me, they'd better think again.

I love it when you get all learny.



If by motivated you mean prejudiced, then yeah. Won't it be amusing when all of fandom learns the big plan?

Oh, and I wanted to add a few words on John and depression. I think there is canon evidence for John having, for lack of a knowledgeable term, situational depression. Maybe Anuna has the correct diagnosis, but in Epiphany, Conversion and Doppelganger he showed signs of withdrawal and, if not a deep depression, at least a brief mood crisis. In Epiphany he even explained to Teer that he hadn't come out of his room for a long time due to depression. So there is evidence for that, but that is a far cry from PTSD. I think that is a term that the general public throws around in ignorance a lot these days when in actuality it's not all that common and is quite severe.

This site has a list of symptoms that in no way relate to John. In fact I think we could take each one and give examples of how John clearly shows that he doesn't have it. So any writer who is serious about characterizing him according to canon would in no way think he exhibits any of those in a serious way. But if you have an agenda to fulfill, you might twist canon to write him OOC. We don't know how far the new books will go in that direction but if a certain author keeps the characterization of John she uses in her fanfic, it's going to be disastrous.

That's a very good way of describing it (situational depression). They keep throwing out a statistic here in the media that one in five adults has depression (in some form, at some time during their life), and he would fit into that. Everybody has ups and downs, but if we're using the arguement that what we see on the show is all that happens to the characters (obviously it isn't, given that they were there for five years, yet we only saw 100hrs), then I don't buy him being 'depressed' more than anybody else.

Said author may not stick exactly to what she has in her fanfics, but I'll bet she has veiled references. Sounds like she has an agenda. But we don't have to read it.

[Scary Kitty]

If by motivated you mean prejudiced, then yeah. Won't it be amusing when all of fandom learns the big plan?

If by 'amusing' you mean 'trainwreck,' then yeah, where's my popcorn?

Oh, and I wanted to add a few words on John and depression. I think there is canon evidence for John having, for lack of a knowledgeable term, situational depression. Maybe Anuna has the correct diagnosis, but in Epiphany, Conversion and Doppelganger he showed signs of withdrawal and, if not a deep depression, at least a brief mood crisis. In Epiphany he even explained to Teer that he hadn't come out of his room for a long time due to depression. So there is evidence for that, but that is a far cry from PTSD. I think that is a term that the general public throws around in ignorance a lot these days when in actuality it's not all that common and is quite severe.

This site has a list of symptoms that in no way relate to John. In fact I think we could take each one and give examples of how John clearly shows that he doesn't have it. So any writer who is serious about characterizing him according to canon would in no way think he exhibits any of those in a serious way. But if you have an agenda to fulfill, you might twist canon to write him OOC. We don't know how far the new books will go in that direction but if a certain author keeps the characterization of John she uses in her fanfic, it's going to be disastrous.

'Situational depression.' I like that!

Like I said... trainwreck!

That's a good point. Unfortunately the process is a bit fuzzy, I guess the writers didn't want to box themselves in to anything

*snorts*

If you look at her behaviour in, say, Zero Hour, she is severely lacking in confidence. And even in The Seer, which is supposed to be her 'breakthrough SGA ep', she's pretty much doing the same thing. I'm not sayinbg I think she's depressed, just that I can see it more in her than Shep. Maybe that's because Shep is a guy and just hides it better *shrugs*

As for the stake burning, I like Carter, so I they want to burn me, they'd better think again.

Breakthrough, my skinny butt. Elizabeth's reaction to the same set of circumstances would've pwned Carter. But maybe that's letting my bias show.

That's a very good way of describing it (situational depression). They keep throwing out a statistic here in the media that one in five adults has depression (in some form, at some time during their life), and he would fit into that. Everybody has ups and downs, but if we're using the arguement that what we see on the show is all that happens to the characters (obviously it isn't, given that they were there for five years, yet we only saw 100hrs), then I don't buy him being 'depressed' more than anybody else.

Exactly. He's just being moody and upset about some very serious situations he's been a part of. No indication at all that he's been fundamentally damaged by what he's experienced.

Said author may not stick exactly to what she has in her fanfics, but I'll bet she has veiled references. Sounds like she has an agenda. But we don't have to read it.

And the producers don't approve of/read the books anyway, so they're not even canon.

[gateraid]

Breakthrough, my skinny butt. Elizabeth's reaction to the same set of circumstances would've pwned Carter. But maybe that's letting my bias show.

I don't think it is. Weir may have been mother hen at times (other people's words) but when push came to shove, she looked at the facts and made a decision. She didn't need half an ep to come to that decision either. I thought they did Carter a big disservice in that ep, ironic considering in the commentary they were waaing on about how strong it made her look. Also ironic considering Shep basically told her what to do. Hmmm. And this is from someone who likes Carter. I feel I have to keep saying that because I disliked what they did to her.

Exactly. He's just being moody and upset about some very serious situations he's been a part of. No indication at all that he's been fundamentally damaged by what he's experienced.

That's it exactly.

And the producers don't approve of/read the books anyway, so they're not even canon.

A fair amount of SGA viewers won't have even heard of the books. Heck, I've never even seen the rest of the merchandise (apart from on the GW website) so I'd have to go really out of my way to find them.

[Fionnait]

Hey - how do we know ATA is just one single gene? How do we know it's not a group of genes?

Well, Carson says it's a gene that is always on in the pilot, so we wouldn't have reason to suspect it's a group of genes. It would also make the gene therapy nearly impossible, if it was more than a single gene. On the other hand, retro-viruses can re-write DNA in Atlantis, so you can never now! *lol*

@SK: Great, now I have the song in my head, too!

[Scary Kitty]

I don't think it is. Weir may have been mother hen at times (other people's words) but when push came to shove, she looked at the facts and made a decision. She didn't need half an ep to come to that decision either. I thought they did Carter a big disservice in that ep, ironic considering in the commentary they were waaing on about how strong it made her look. Also ironic considering Shep basically told her what to do. Hmmm. And this is from someone who likes Carter. I feel I have to keep saying that because I disliked what they did to her.

I'm not a big Carter fan at all, and even I thought what they did to her on SGA sucked harder than a black hole. That just wasn't the Carter I knew from SG-1.

A fair amount of SGA viewers won't have even heard of the books. Heck, I've never even seen the rest of the merchandise (apart from on the GW website) so I'd have to go really out of my way to find them.

Most of the stuff out there seems to be concentrated in the US and UK, so it's more difficult for anyone outside those markets to get their hands on any of it. The books are the easiest, thanks to online bookstores like Amazon, but still... And you're right, most viewers (especially the so-called 'casual' viewers) will not even have the books (or any of the other merchandise) on their radar. It's simply not a priority.

@SK: Great, now I have the song in my head, too!

LMAO! My work is done!

And with that, it's time for me to head off to bed. Nighty-night, Sparkies, and pleasant Sparky dreams!

[Anuna]

Well, Carson says it's a gene that is always on in the pilot, so we wouldn't have reason to suspect it's a group of genes. It would also make the gene therapy nearly impossible, if it was more than a single gene. On the other hand, retro-viruses can re-write DNA in Atlantis, so you can never now! *lol*

@SK: Great, now I have the song in my head, too!

Ah, gotcha! This is what happens when I stir up discussion over here when it's past midnight in my part of the world.

Human mind is complex and unpredictable. An individual who appears stoic could be easily broken or someone whom we think of as a whiny crybaby could handhe him or herself better in crisis than most soldiers. There are many mediating variables - childhood experiences, personality trites, possible training and/ or expecting to meet hard and traumatic circumastances, previous experience with shuch circumstances. Then there is genetics, proneness to psychiatric conditions (aka the way we react - do we become neurotic, depressive or psychotic when under stress); age, gender, the length of exposure to traumatic event. There are more, but I'm starting to sound like DSM manual.

If, say, a person is prone to depression - one should keep in mind that there are various types of depression. There is major depressive diorder, which is a lifelong disorder and a person has to take medication for it. There is also seasonal depression (it's triggered by season changes, and it's most common in autumn and spring), there are holiday - depressions, dysthimia, cyclothimia, there's also reactive depression that literally anyone can suffer. Bipolar disorder was also in this group, but modern psychiatry tends to look at it separately. My point is, not every depression is the same, just like people aren't.

I'd say John is prone to react in depressed way. If you stretch it really really far, you could say he has dysthymia (low grade depression, lasting more than two years, with sypmtoms like low mood, insomnia or hipersomnia, low productibility, irritabilility... DSM criteria says one should have at least two symptoms. Ever since Adrift/Lifeline (!!) John is showing both signs of low mood and irritability and it lasts for two years (seasons) now.) I couldn't say if same applies to Carter, since I never paid much attention to her, heh, but I think gateraid is onto something there.

[KrisRussel]

Ok, so what I'm getting from you guys is that some fanfic writer is allowed to write a novel and she'll portray John as having PTSD?
All I have to say about that is: WTF??
*mumbles something incoherent and goes back to work*

[Anuna]

Ok, so what I'm getting from you guys is that some fanfic writer is allowed to write a novel and she'll portray John as having PTSD?
All I have to say about that is: WTF??
*mumbles something incoherent and goes back to work*

Actually, not quite like that. A fanfic author, who belongs to a shipper group that shall not be named is writing an SGA tie in novel. She is boasting on her "official" LJ blog that she intends to break up a couple from SGA. Our guess is that couple that has a kid. Are you disturbed yet? No? Okay, there's more. She is known for fanfics that portray John as someone who has PTSD, sexual insecurity issues and sexual identity issues. Yes, you read that right. He is also totally and completely okay with home wrecking, because it would be - how was that? - wrong to assume that a certain major female character adheres to "western, methodist, middle class, white standards of what family should mean." LOL. I better not go into how she portrays certain major female character. Let's also mention that, according to her, Elizabeth is this middle aged, old - feeling chick who is bored, out of touch with the members of her expedition and John apparently doesn't know how to talk to her, because if he does, oh the poor lonely Elizabeth might see it as him hitting on her. And he really REALLY doesn't want that. Because, you see, he's taken. Only it's friends with benefits scheme. The author and her followers have obviously watched some version of SGA we have apparently missed.

At this poin we are wondering how much of her fic agenda will fint its way into thse oh so awesome novels. Thre you go.

[Probie]

Why I missed those conversations everytime?
I didn't read eveyrhting because I had not time but PTSD? I don't understand it.

SK: No your work is not done. I have another song in my head. REM is not powerful.lol
I have a stupid song in my head. Be careful everyone, I will sing......."And now I'm a king and my queen will come at dawn. She'll be waiting in Kingston Town". The title is in the song.lol

[Anuna]

We don't understand the PTSD part either.

Actually I don't understand any of it. It feels like a dfferent show alltogether, and not the one we watched.

[Southern Red]

I'm not a big Carter fan at all, and even I thought what they did to her on SGA sucked harder than a black hole. That just wasn't the Carter I knew from SG-1.



Most of the stuff out there seems to be concentrated in the US and UK, so it's more difficult for anyone outside those markets to get their hands on any of it. The books are the easiest, thanks to online bookstores like Amazon, but still... And you're right, most viewers (especially the so-called 'casual' viewers) will not even have the books (or any of the other merchandise) on their radar. It's simply not a priority.



LMAO! My work is done!

And with that, it's time for me to head off to bed. Nighty-night, Sparkies, and pleasant Sparky dreams!

The discussion here about Carter has been interesting. It's OT but relates in a way since we are trying to get our heads around John as a depressive. I loved Carter on SG-1 in a casual fan sort of way and never thought very deeply about her psyche. I think they wrote her as too much of a Mary Sue for any depression to show. She always bounced back from stuff way too quickly. On SGA however, I always saw her as being written exactly like Weir. Even her lines sounded the same and not Carter like at all. Aside from the first part of S&R where she acted like a true leader. Maybe it was because John wasn't around to tell her what to do. Hmmm. But I don't think the writers realized what they were doing.

Funny, but just recently I read a comment on LJ from a serious Carter fan who said S4 was sooooo great because the writers knew they were writing for AT and had to make it good. No, I am not making that up. LOL

Ah, gotcha! This is what happens when I stir up discussion over here when it's past midnight in my part of the world.

Human mind is complex and unpredictable. An individual who appears stoic could be easily broken or someone whom we think of as a whiny crybaby could handhe him or herself better in crisis than most soldiers. There are many mediating variables - childhood experiences, personality trites, possible training and/ or expecting to meet hard and traumatic circumastances, previous experience with shuch circumstances. Then there is genetics, proneness to psychiatric conditions (aka the way we react - do we become neurotic, depressive or psychotic when under stress); age, gender, the length of exposure to traumatic event. There are more, but I'm starting to sound like DSM manual.

If, say, a person is prone to depression - one should keep in mind that there are various types of depression. There is major depressive diorder, which is a lifelong disorder and a person has to take medication for it. There is also seasonal depression (it's triggered by season changes, and it's most common in autumn and spring), there are holiday - depressions, dysthimia, cyclothimia, there's also reactive depression that literally anyone can suffer. Bipolar disorder was also in this group, but modern psychiatry tends to look at it separately. My point is, not every depression is the same, just like people aren't.

I'd say John is prone to react in depressed way. If you stretch it really really far, you could say he has dysthymia (low grade depression, lasting more than two years, with sypmtoms like low mood, insomnia or hipersomnia, low productibility, irritabilility... DSM criteria says one should have at least two symptoms. Ever since Adrift/Lifeline (!!) John is showing both signs of low mood and irritability and it lasts for two years (seasons) now.) I couldn't say if same applies to Carter, since I never paid much attention to her, heh, but I think gateraid is onto something there.

Reactive depression. See, I knew you had a scholarly phrase for it. That's John.

Actually, not quite like that. A fanfic author, who belongs to a shipper group that shall not be named is writing an SGA tie in novel. She is boasting on her "official" LJ blog that she intends to break up a couple from SGA. Our guess is that couple that has a kid. Are you disturbed yet? No? Okay, there's more. She is known for fanfics that portray John as someone who has PTSD, sexual insecurity issues and sexual identity issues. Yes, you read that right. He is also totally and completely okay with home wrecking, because it would be - how was that? - wrong to assume that a certain major female character adheres to "western, methodist, middle class, white standards of what family should mean." LOL. I better not go into how she portrays certain major female character. Let's also mention that, according to her, Elizabeth is this middle aged, old - feeling chick who is bored, out of touch with the members of her expedition and John apparently doesn't know how to talk to her, because if he does, oh the poor lonely Elizabeth might see it as him hitting on her. And he really REALLY doesn't want that. Because, you see, he's taken. Only it's friends with benefits scheme. The author and her followers have obviously watched some version of SGA we have apparently missed.

At this poin we are wondering how much of her fic agenda will fint its way into thse oh so awesome novels. Thre you go.

*Bows to your awesomeness* That was the best summary of the whole situation I have ever seen. You are the queen of the thread.

But really, we may be surprised. After all, said author also declared herself completely committed to canon. So surely she won't include any of those fanfic characterizations in her books. Surely.

Why I missed those conversations everytime?
I didn't read eveyrhting because I had not time but PTSD? I don't understand it.

SK: No your work is not done. I have another song in my head. REM is not powerful.lol
I have a stupid song in my head. Be careful everyone, I will sing......."And now I'm a king and my queen will come at dawn. She'll be waiting in Kingston Town". The title is in the song.lol

Aaarrrggghhh! When I was in chorus in high school we sang the Harry Belafonte song about Kingston Town for the regional competition. I still remember my second alto part after alllll these years. Thanks for that. Aaarrrggghhh! Maybe that's why I like Glee so much. I can relate. LOL

[Anuna]

@SR - I think my sanity just suffered a substantial damage after doing that summary. Do you think it's possible to get PTSD from bad fanfiction?

[Southern Red]

@SR - I think my sanity just suffered a substantial damage after doing that summary. Do you think it's possible to get PTSD from bad fanfiction?

Take two Sparky fics and call me in the morning. Heh.

Yesterday I stumbled on one in which:

Spoiler:

John and Teyla are married and have a teenage daughter named Elizabeth.

Now I can see that if he's been grieving all these years and wipes away a tear every time he looks at her but I couldn't make myself read further. My eyes still burn.

[Anuna]

And there goes my PTSD.... I need meds, now!

[VampyreWraith]

Actually, not quite like that. A fanfic author, who belongs to a shipper group that shall not be named is writing an SGA tie in novel. She is boasting on her "official" LJ blog that she intends to break up a couple from SGA. Our guess is that couple that has a kid. Are you disturbed yet? No? Okay, there's more. She is known for fanfics that portray John as someone who has PTSD, sexual insecurity issues and sexual identity issues. Yes, you read that right. He is also totally and completely okay with home wrecking, because it would be - how was that? - wrong to assume that a certain major female character adheres to "western, methodist, middle class, white standards of what family should mean." LOL. I better not go into how she portrays certain major female character. Let's also mention that, according to her, Elizabeth is this middle aged, old - feeling chick who is bored, out of touch with the members of her expedition and John apparently doesn't know how to talk to her, because if he does, oh the poor lonely Elizabeth might see it as him hitting on her. And he really REALLY doesn't want that. Because, you see, he's taken. Only it's friends with benefits scheme. The author and her followers have obviously watched some version of SGA we have apparently missed.

At this poin we are wondering how much of her fic agenda will fint its way into thse oh so awesome novels. Thre you go.

Hi, this is my first post, i've been lurking here and on various other gateworld threads for quite awhile, a lot longer than i've had an account, and i figured that it was time to say hi, and you all seem nice and capable of intelligent conversation lol. I kinda should mention that I'm really not a shipper, especially when it comes to ships between main characters. That said, i can totally see this ship working in the way you guys have described in your discussions about a virtual season six, since elizabeth wont be john's boss. thats always been that main reason for my dislike of the john/elizabeth ship, cuz i've always seen the chemistry between the two characters, i just didn't like the implications on there professional relationship. I definately see this ship way more than the other suggested ship, which had me rolling my eyes and saying "oh please no" when i saw the heavy handed hints at it in the first ep, thankfully that was dropped and never made canon. Which brings me to whats quoted above and certain authors need to change canon in order to bring her fav ship into fruition. I'd never read any of said author's fanfic before, but just from her "not too spoilery spoilers" i got the impression that that is where her books are headed. I sincerely hope I'm wrong , but from reading what has been said on this thread which only confirmed what i got from reading the author's lj page, i'm not expecting much. It just kinda irritates me when published authors try to rewrite or twist canon in order to suit there own personal veiws on how a character should develop, and claim it was the only logical devolopment for the characters to undergo. Not to mention making up backstory that doesnt fit whith what was shown/discussed in canon in order to support said development (polyamourus nomads?? Seriously??????) Anyways, lol I think i've ranted enough, and im really looking forward to reading your season six when it comes out , moreso than anything thats going to be published. Gotta go bye-bye