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**Southern Red** · 23 February 2010, 06:41 AM

Originally posted by Anuna View Post

Actually, one thing that doesn't separate John and Elizabeth, while it does separate John and Teyla are cultural differences.

Spoiler:

Totally 100% agree.

Originally posted by Eri13 View Post

I forgot about the new Showrunner--I don't remember the end--was the only title card in the cast credits the 'created by' card, or did they mention JM/PM by S3? Or were they in the title card credits over the opening scenes following the first break? If it was only the 'created by' we can get by with the old credits until midway through the season, but if we need to update the showrunners then we need to update the showrunners.

*hides for disagreeing with the boss* I just like the original Atlantis credit music. I think it needs to stay. But yous the boss.

Nah, I'm not the boss. I just serve as the backboard and the stickie maker.

I don't have a lot of opinions about the credits. I agree that the music should stay. But I think we need a little something to distinguish this from the old show. If we leave only "created by" it sounds like they are still doing it. Maybe adding our logo without mentioning any names?

And your Sparky soliloquy gets a stickie all its own. At some point I think it will come in handy.

**Eri13** · 23 February 2010, 06:51 AM

Originally posted by Southern Red View Post

Totally 100% agree.

Nah, I'm not the boss. I just serve as the backboard and the stickie maker.

I don't have a lot of opinions about the credits. I agree that the music should stay. But I think we need a little something to distinguish this from the old show. If we leave only "created by" it sounds like they are still doing it. Maybe adding our logo without mentioning any names?

And your Sparky soliloquy gets a stickie all its own. At some point I think it will come in handy.

Soliloquy? I just talk too much. I have to sort through my thoughts like combing out tangles in my hair. And my hair is long and curly and hardly ever gets combed out smooth, so you can only imagine what my brain is like. But I am proud to be a stickie on your Mac.

I like the idea of adding a logo. Also, I think we can tie that into a 'production company,' no? We don't have one of those yet! We need a Sparky-related title. "Our Way" Productions? "SS Sparky 6?" "Peanut Butter and Chocolate, Inc?"

**Anuna** · 23 February 2010, 07:01 AM

I vote "Our Way" productions.

Also, you ladies are making me use thesaurus.

**Southern Red** · 23 February 2010, 07:12 AM

Originally posted by Eri13 View Post

Soliloquy? I just talk too much. I have to sort through my thoughts like combing out tangles in my hair. And my hair is long and curly and hardly ever gets combed out smooth, so you can only imagine what my brain is like. But I am proud to be a stickie on your Mac.

I like the idea of adding a logo. Also, I think we can tie that into a 'production company,' no? We don't have one of those yet! We need a Sparky-related title. "Our Way" Productions? "SS Sparky 6?" "Peanut Butter and Chocolate, Inc?"

That explains a lot. My hair is short and straight and I can comb it with my fingers and my brain is smooth and simple.

Originally posted by Anuna View Post

I vote "Our Way" productions.

Also, you ladies are making me use thesaurus.

I like "Our Way" also. And using the thesaurus is a good thing. I had to look up how to spell soliloquy. LOL

**Lt.Colonel John Sheppard** · 23 February 2010, 07:21 AM

Eri I've been computer less for a little over a week i'm barely getting it back tonight

**Eri13** · 23 February 2010, 07:21 AM

Originally posted by Anuna View Post

I vote "Our Way" productions.

Also, you ladies are making me use thesaurus.

Originally posted by Southern Red View Post

That explains a lot. My hair is short and straight and I can comb it with my fingers and my brain is smooth and simple.

I like "Our Way" also. And using the thesaurus is a good thing. I had to look up how to spell soliloquy. LOL

*giggles* I love you guys!

*goes to actual work before she gets fired*

**Eri13** · 23 February 2010, 07:24 AM

Originally posted by Lt.Colonel John Sheppard View Post

Eri I've been computer less for a little over a week i'm barely getting it back tonight

I know that feeling, I was that way in December when my computer broke. I know you can't catch up to everything. But a post answering yours was on the same page as yours. It's not hard to review at least the last few days.

**Southern Red** · 23 February 2010, 07:32 AM

I heard a Reba McEntyre song earlier and these lines go right to the core of Sparky to me.

If I'm not that one thing you can't stand to lose
If I'm not that arrow to the heart of you.

This kind of summarizes how John acted in all of S4-5 to me.

**Anuna** · 23 February 2010, 07:35 AM

Lovely lyrics, SR.

How about Emmylou and Mark (Knopfler)?

We had a harmony
I never meant to spoil
Now it's lying in the water
Like a slick of oil
The tide is running out to sea
Under a darkening sky
The night is falling down on me
And I‘m thinking that I

Should head on home
Been gone too long
Leave my roaming
Beachcombing

S4 - S5 John to me

*pets the woobie* (that song should be vidded. If I could convince myself to take a chance with laptop, Windows Vista and WMM. because nothing else works on it. )

**Anuna** · 23 February 2010, 10:03 AM

Originally posted by Eri13 View Post

As to Kate, I'm not sure! I'd have to muse on it. As to the other, John and Elizabeth are distinctly different, for me, than any others...

Spoiler:

...in that John and Elizabeth have the same sort of understanding as to what comes first. IMO, I think they'd always put Atlantis first. Duty first. That never changes, even when she comes back. That's not to say that they wouldn't love, or love passionately or strongly, but it's all wrapped up into one big ideal. They've sort of always been that way about Atlantis, that's why they 'clicked' and why in episodes like "Common Ground" and "Adrift" they know the other's primary desire is to protect Atlantis, even if it means the other dies. What they want more than anything else, even their own personal needs, is to make sure the other's wishes are met--that's their understanding, and the way they'd show 'love' for someone similar to them.

With Elizabeth, she's different for me from Teyla. Not as 'personal'. I think of her and Simon, and compare Teyla and Kanaan, and Elizabeth is okay leaving Simon behind in pursuit of something Elizabeth deems 'more important' than a relationship or a lover. Teyla I don't think that's true for. Elizabeth rejected 'bearded Mike' because she didn't have time for a relationship--it conflicted with her duty. Teyla grows intimate with Kanaan because she needs that relationship due to the weight her duty placed on her. She doesn't see it as conflicting--she needs it. And not only does she fight to keep Kanaan, but from what I understand, he remains with her on Atlantis to raise Torren, showing she's not content with him being far from her. I don't think Teyla's true happiness lies in devotion to Atlantis, but rather in the knowledge that she is doing something to keep her people safe for generations to come.

Teyla sacrificed a life with her people to make life better for her people. Elizabeth sacrificed her life with Simon to go on the trip of a lifetime. Eventually I think Elizabeth's interests became more selfless in that it became her number one goal to protect the expedition and its people, but her entire life is Atlantis, and Simon was that little ancillary puzzle piece that was missing that would have made it 'perfect'. Which is why it's a slap in the face initially that Simon cheats and opts not to go with her, because in her mind poor Simon was the cherry on top. But he doesn't want to be. And that realization doesn't break Elizabeth. One episode later, and her attitude is kinda like 'Simon who?' Even in the Real World, where she looks at the doctor like he's nuts because he suggests she had a mental breakdown over Simon--sort like 'why would I lose it over Simon?'

John, in a sense, is the same way, though his take was 'what the hell do I have to lose?' When Atlantis becomes his family, he'll do anything and everything in his power to protect it, but I think when it came down to his own personal happiness, it was hard for him to choose anything that interfered with devotion to 'the cause'. Even Teyla or someone else that would conflict with that duty. Someone already did, in that Nancy and he had the same type of relationship on Earth and he could not sacrifice the chance to do 'good' over saving his marriage. John has an overwhelming, almost impossible, sense of do-gooderness. There would always be someone to save, and if he could fly a chopper and risk his life to save that someone, he would. Even if it meant losing personal happiness--or rather, like Elizabeth, that IS his personal happiness. If he didn't have that idealism, he'd be stuck feeling as though his life was worth nothing (Vegas).

Which is why, to me, he and Elizabeth are perfect matches. Because neither would ask the other to compromise their duty to higher causes/ideals, and essentially their cause is the same--Atlantis and its people. Their feelings are 'synced'. The love that could come out of it flows in and around the cracks, filling the blank spaces and emptiness/loneliness that such a weighty purpose in life places on both of them. It's not independent of the duty, it's wrapped completely in it.

The effect of losing Elizabeth, for John, opens his eyes to what her loss meant to him--that maybe he realizes there is a person there who 'gets him' but doesn't ask more of him than he can give. For Elizabeth, though she doesn't go two years without him, he's the one person who is still the same as she remembers, whose life hasn't gone through a significant change. Yet there's enough of a change--less boyishness, I guess--to make their interactions more serious, a little deeper, a little more intense. With everyone else paired off, they rely on each other a little more and eventually there is the realization that that 'reliance' is something more than they realized. That may be another cheesy 'bang-pow' moment ("I can't lose him!" or something).

But it's not Teyla's love story, or Rodney's, because they're different from those characters. It's wrapped up in Atlantis, their devotion to the Atlantis family and how they work together. To me, John and Elizabeth need someone else who supports their purpose without asking them to change and yet who can still love them for being that way. They can do that for the other, and though it might not solve the 'self-sacrificing' tendencies they'll have in seeing Atlantis as safe as possible, it might curb, a little, the notion of giving up easily. Because now, on top of the duty, there is something a little personal to fight for until the very last breath, too.

It's Ghost in the Machine--'what if one of them wants to stay': that little bit of selfishness amidst their idealism. Finally finding that puzzle piece that completes the picture, but doesn't require the picture to change.

That is a thought to keep. I'm even planning to write a ficlet/fic set in some vague future, not necessarily part of season 6, but something which includes this sort of characterization. For example, I wanted to re write Quarantine for ages now, and have Elizabeth in Carter's place.

Spoiler:

What's so great about Elizabeth and John is that their hearts were at the same place from the very beginning. It's the reason why they bonded, why John felt he could respect her, why he listened to her - because she was as devoted as he was. He is a do good-er, and so is she. Their ideals are somewhat different, hers are more abstract, leading to greater good, and his are personal and tied to his heart, but the result was the same. Atlantis and duty came first, and over that, they bonded very firmly. And after S1 they bonded in subtle, complex, fascinating ways, and their hearts were always at the same place. In that sense, John was always devoted to Elizabeth, because he was devoted to her own devotion, the perfect - imperfect love that always sizzled beneath the surface.

I love how you point out differences between Elizabeth and Teyla, and I agree. Because Teyla is 'personal' and seeks the emotional connection to lessen her burden, she would ahve difficulty to let John go, when duty comes first and could possibly claim his life. She doesn't have to go through that with Kanaan. But both John and Elizabeth need the freedom to put the duty first. It's an example of upside down logic, but it works for them. Both love the other enough to let them go, and that is a crucial element, that absic and deep respect they have for one another.

But when Elizabeth is back things do change, or rather have changed. John went through loss so horrible and not completely over and done because of TMC and GitM, and had his heart broken several times. It's like she died several times over. First he has to accept her back and learn to feel safe around her again. And when that happens he has to help her through her breakdown, and when all of that is done, they can re - connect.

The most important thing in love is acceptance. What other women in john's life wanted from him - and he failed to give - complete devotion to relationship, which would separate him from his purpose and his duty - is one thing Elizabeth doesn't ask, because she is on the same mission. They'd butt heads occasionally, because once they get together they'd need each other and would ahve to find a way to balance the need and feelings with the duty. But ultimately, it's two of them who are set that way, and no other couple. *sigh* I really really need to write something extremely romantic. *goes looking for the muse*

**nephtys59** · 23 February 2010, 10:04 AM

*drops request*

3 moments in the life of John Sheppard (Season 5), where he witnesses his friends having a boyfriend/girlfriend/mate/whatever:

Search and Rescue (Teyla-Kanaan)
http://www.gateworld.net/gallery/dis...m=740&pos=1533
http://www.gateworld.net/gallery/dis...m=740&pos=1551

Brain Storm (Rodney-Jennifer)
http://www.gateworld.net/gallery/dis...bum=729&pos=14
http://www.gateworld.net/gallery/dis...bum=729&pos=15

Enemy At The Gate (Ronon-Amelia)
http://www.gateworld.net/gallery/dis...m=731&pos=1109
http://www.gateworld.net/gallery/dis...m=731&pos=1114

All team members have a love life except Sheppard (poor boy

)
It would be nice someone (Carson, for example) made a comment about it and get a slightly irritated John's reaction ('cause he misses Elizabeth, of course

).

*runs away*

**Probie** · 23 February 2010, 10:21 AM

Thanks everyone for your support.

Originally posted by Southern Red View Post

Totally 100% agree.

Nah, I'm not the boss. I just serve as the backboard and the stickie maker.

I don't have a lot of opinions about the credits. I agree that the music should stay. But I think we need a little something to distinguish this from the old show. If we leave only "created by" it sounds like they are still doing it. Maybe adding our logo without mentioning any names?

And your Sparky soliloquy gets a stickie all its own. At some point I think it will come in handy.

You forgot. It was me who pushed Brad Wright of his boss's chair to designate you as showrunner? I did the hard part. Why don't put at the end of this credit "by our glorious and lovely friend Probie".lol
Of course I'm kidding. I'm useless (except when we talk about coffee). I started to act like Brad Wright sorry.

Like "Our Way". But stupid question. I think I missed something. Why we need a credit? We (by "we" I mean "you") will do vids?lol

Originally posted by nephtys59 View Post

*drops request*

3 moments in the life of John Sheppard (Season 5), where he witnesses his friends having a boyfriend/girlfriend/mate/whatever:

Search and Rescue (Teyla-Kanaan)
http://www.gateworld.net/gallery/dis...m=740&pos=1533
http://www.gateworld.net/gallery/dis...m=740&pos=1551

Brain Storm (Rodney-Jennifer)
http://www.gateworld.net/gallery/dis...bum=729&pos=14
http://www.gateworld.net/gallery/dis...bum=729&pos=15

Enemy At The Gate (Ronon-Amelia)
http://www.gateworld.net/gallery/dis...m=731&pos=1109
http://www.gateworld.net/gallery/dis...m=731&pos=1114

All team members have a love life except Sheppard (poor boy

)
It would be nice someone (Carson, for example) made a comment about it and get a slightly irritated John's reaction ('cause he misses Elizabeth, of course

).

*runs away*

Interesting post. Great idea.

I have to admit. I like the idea of John alone (even when Elizabeth was in the show). It's supid to say it. Bye.lol

**Anuna** · 23 February 2010, 10:34 AM

I am experimenting with our characterization and premises. Here's a ficlet based on our discussions - please let me know how you guys like it. It's a John - centered story set in post - Elizabeth - rescue future, and surprisingly, the rating isn't sky high. Yet.

Spoiler:

**Eri13** · 23 February 2010, 11:17 AM

Originally posted by Anuna View Post

I am experimenting with our characterization and premises. Here's a ficlet based on our discussions - please let me know how you guys like it. It's a John - centered story set in post - Elizabeth - rescue future, and surprisingly, the rating isn't sky high. Yet.

Spoiler:

I like it! Poor John.

**Anuna** · 23 February 2010, 11:19 AM

Originally posted by Eri13 View Post

I like it! Poor John.

It's all your fault. Discussing stuff with you inspires me.

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