Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Lythisrose]

Just a quick question since you are talking about cast, are folk like Lorne, Zelenka, Biro, Cadman, Caldwell, Marie, etc. going to be appearing this season? I know the moments the regular supporting players appeared were some of my favorites.

Spoiler:

(and not that it matters,since I'm not a writer, but I'd sacrifice Kellers screentime for any one of them.... )

[Reiko]

HOWEVER--I think this should be a big project--someone with some CGI skills, with Adobe Aftereffects, etc, to make some seriously kick*** credits, like could be used on a real show.

I could do this but it might take awhile because I'll be using a different computer. Another thing is that I cannot find my installation software. But given that opening credits don't use a whole bunch of clips, I might give it a shot (if I find Premeire -- don't want to use WMM!) I actually have ideas, which is probably a bad thing. Anyhow, you might want to find someone else since I'm unreliable at the moment.

Oh, and I was wondering, if I do get to have a shot at this -- how would you feel if the opening credits song was changed? Because my concept idea is completely based around using my own song choice. Just throwing that out there.

But yeah, maybe you should get someone else anyhow and I'll take this on as a fun side project (maybe for s7 credits?) when I have the resources/time.

Uh, muddling the opening credits dilemma. As for opening credits, my first choice would be:

1 - Joe F
2 - Torri H
3 - Rachel L
4 - Jason M
5 - Jewel S
6 - Robert P
7 - w/ Paul M as Dr Carson B
8 - and David H as Dr McKay

Joe is naturally first, as the primary protagonist -- I've always seen him as the audience surrogate, the one in which whose eyes we see the story through. Torri is second here because I've always seen her as the leading lady, Teyla as the secondary and now Keller as third, though I'm sure others will view this differently. It's also her position as Atlantis leader that makes her important and her relation to John that makes me want to place her here.

Rachel, Jason, Jewel, Robert are placed as they were in s5 because that works fine. I think Paul works fine where he is -- I think the special attention drawn to his name with "with" is because he was upgraded for being a fan/tptb favourite. I think that works fine and flows well with the actor list (syntax-wise) though it wouldn't do much harm if it was dropped. David can bring up the rear because that's also an important position, and McKay always played a major role even when the old tptb were much more efficient at dealing out his screentime in s1. And he's well-known from SG-1 so him being last with the "and/as Dr. McKay" draws special attention.

Which brings me to choice 2:

1 - Joe F
2 - Rachel L
3 - Jason M
4 - Paul M
5 - Robert P
6 - Jewel S
7 - with David H as Dr McKay
8 - and Torri H as Dr Elizabeth Weir

Joe remains the same, Rachel is moved into 2nd. (Since I've kind of viewed her as John's battle-minded second in command, like Firefly's Zoe, while Ronon is muscle and McKay is brains on the core team). Then Jason, then Paul, who gets placed before Robert and Jewel for seniority on the cast. David is bumped from last to second-last and Torri taking the rear, drawing attention to her return and her new role within the series.

So those are my top two choices. Though perhaps the order is already decided, in which that ridiculously lost post was created for.

I think tvtropes's article with plenty of examples sheds some light on the topic, if you're interested.

[Southern Red]

I think David may be too big a name to stick behind Rachel and Jason *ducks flying lemmings* I think he'd either have to get second billing or "the and" since he has so much more screen time than pretty much anyone else.

Of course, we could also make him be the 'with':

Joe Flanigan, Rachel Luttrell, Jason Momoa, Jewel Staite, Robert Picardo...

*pause* *glitzy special effects*

WITH David Hewlett

AND Torri Higginson as Dr. Elizabeth Weir...

Paul either way is fine with me. And of course, all recurrers will come in the title card credits.

Agreed. If we move David, it would be like a demotion.

You're right, they did do that with Paul and David for S2 and S3:

'with Paul McGillion as Dr. Carson Beckett'

'and David Hewlett as Dr. McKay'

They didn't put in McKay's first name, but they did put in Beckett's first name. Odd.

That may have been an homage to Galaxy Quest.

Just a quick question since you are talking about cast, are folk like Lorne, Zelenka, Biro, Cadman, Caldwell, Marie, etc. going to be appearing this season? I know the moments the regular supporting players appeared were some of my favorites.

Spoiler:

(and not that it matters,since I'm not a writer, but I'd sacrifice Kellers screentime for any one of them.... )

Definitely, we'll see all of our faves plus Dr. Heightmeyer.

I could do this but it might take awhile because I'll be using a different computer. Another thing is that I cannot find my installation software. But given that opening credits don't use a whole bunch of clips, I might give it a shot (if I find Premeire -- don't want to use WMM!) I actually have ideas, which is probably a bad thing. Anyhow, you might want to find someone else since I'm unreliable at the moment.

Oh, and I was wondering, if I do get to have a shot at this -- how would you feel if the opening credits song was changed? Because my concept idea is completely based around using my own song choice. Just throwing that out there.

But yeah, maybe you should get someone else anyhow and I'll take this on as a fun side project (maybe for s7 credits?) when I have the resources/time.

Uh, muddling the opening credits dilemma. As for opening credits, my first choice would be:

1 - Joe F
2 - Torri H
3 - Rachel L
4 - Jason M
5 - Jewel S
6 - Robert P
7 - w/ Paul M as Dr Carson B
8 - and David H as Dr McKay

Joe is naturally first, as the primary protagonist -- I've always seen him as the audience surrogate, the one in which whose eyes we see the story through. Torri is second here because I've always seen her as the leading lady, Teyla as the secondary and now Keller as third, though I'm sure others will view this differently. It's also her position as Atlantis leader that makes her important and her relation to John that makes me want to place her here.

Rachel, Jason, Jewel, Robert are placed as they were in s5 because that works fine. I think Paul works fine where he is -- I think the special attention drawn to his name with "with" is because he was upgraded for being a fan/tptb favourite. I think that works fine and flows well with the actor list (syntax-wise) though it wouldn't do much harm if it was dropped. David can bring up the rear because that's also an important position, and McKay always played a major role even when the old tptb were much more efficient at dealing out his screentime in s1. And he's well-known from SG-1 so him being last with the "and/as Dr. McKay" draws special attention.

Which brings me to choice 2:

1 - Joe F
2 - Rachel L
3 - Jason M
4 - Paul M
5 - Robert P
6 - Jewel S
7 - with David H as Dr McKay
8 - and Torri H as Dr Elizabeth Weir

Joe remains the same, Rachel is moved into 2nd. (Since I've kind of viewed her as John's battle-minded second in command, like Firefly's Zoe, while Ronon is muscle and McKay is brains on the core team). Then Jason, then Paul, who gets placed before Robert and Jewel for seniority on the cast. David is bumped from last to second-last and Torri taking the rear, drawing attention to her return and her new role within the series.

So those are my top two choices. Though perhaps the order is already decided, in which that ridiculously lost post was created for.

I think tvtropes's article with plenty of examples sheds some light on the topic, if you're interested.

My vote is for list #1 because it restores Torri to her previous position and gives DH the important "and" place.

And on the credit vid, I say anyone who can and wants to can do one and we'll vote.

[Scary Kitty]

Just a quick question since you are talking about cast, are folk like Lorne, Zelenka, Biro, Cadman, Caldwell, Marie, etc. going to be appearing this season? I know the moments the regular supporting players appeared were some of my favorites.

Spoiler:

(and not that it matters,since I'm not a writer, but I'd sacrifice Kellers screentime for any one of them.... )

Absolutely they'll be appearing! It wouldn't really be Atlantis without them.

Huh. That is strange.

Very strange. Obviously, we'll be fixing that to include McKay's first name in our opening credits.

I could do this but it might take awhile because I'll be using a different computer. Another thing is that I cannot find my installation software. But given that opening credits don't use a whole bunch of clips, I might give it a shot (if I find Premeire -- don't want to use WMM!) I actually have ideas, which is probably a bad thing. Anyhow, you might want to find someone else since I'm unreliable at the moment.

Oh, and I was wondering, if I do get to have a shot at this -- how would you feel if the opening credits song was changed? Because my concept idea is completely based around using my own song choice. Just throwing that out there.

But yeah, maybe you should get someone else anyhow and I'll take this on as a fun side project (maybe for s7 credits?) when I have the resources/time.

Hmm, don't know about changing the music for the credits... Thoughts, anyone?

Uh, muddling the opening credits dilemma. As for opening credits, my first choice would be:

1 - Joe F
2 - Torri H
3 - Rachel L
4 - Jason M
5 - Jewel S
6 - Robert P
7 - w/ Paul M as Dr Carson B
8 - and David H as Dr McKay

Joe is naturally first, as the primary protagonist -- I've always seen him as the audience surrogate, the one in which whose eyes we see the story through. Torri is second here because I've always seen her as the leading lady, Teyla as the secondary and now Keller as third, though I'm sure others will view this differently. It's also her position as Atlantis leader that makes her important and her relation to John that makes me want to place her here.

Rachel, Jason, Jewel, Robert are placed as they were in s5 because that works fine. I think Paul works fine where he is -- I think the special attention drawn to his name with "with" is because he was upgraded for being a fan/tptb favourite. I think that works fine and flows well with the actor list (syntax-wise) though it wouldn't do much harm if it was dropped. David can bring up the rear because that's also an important position, and McKay always played a major role even when the old tptb were much more efficient at dealing out his screentime in s1. And he's well-known from SG-1 so him being last with the "and/as Dr. McKay" draws special attention.

Which brings me to choice 2:

1 - Joe F
2 - Rachel L
3 - Jason M
4 - Paul M
5 - Robert P
6 - Jewel S
7 - with David H as Dr McKay
8 - and Torri H as Dr Elizabeth Weir

Joe remains the same, Rachel is moved into 2nd. (Since I've kind of viewed her as John's battle-minded second in command, like Firefly's Zoe, while Ronon is muscle and McKay is brains on the core team). Then Jason, then Paul, who gets placed before Robert and Jewel for seniority on the cast. David is bumped from last to second-last and Torri taking the rear, drawing attention to her return and her new role within the series.

So those are my top two choices. Though perhaps the order is already decided, in which that ridiculously lost post was created for.

I think tvtropes's article with plenty of examples sheds some light on the topic, if you're interested.

Some of us have weighed in, but we've been mostly debating all the variations rather than really deciding on one set over another. Honestly, I'd be fine with either of these choices, for much the same reasoning that you've presented. Option 1 gives the feeling of a 'returning to our roots' setup (which, really, is what we're trying to accomplish with S6), with everyone who was on the show prior to Season 4 back in their S2-3 positions, while Option 2 has a kind of 'moving forward' feel, with pretty much everyone except Joe in a different spot than they were when they started on the show. So... yeah. Maybe it's time we take a vote?

[nephtys59]

If I'm not mistaken, the video you are talking about is the opening credits for each episode and two versions are needed: one without Torri for early Season and one with Torri starting from when she officially appears.
I suppose the music has to be the official Atlantis intro or you want it to be different?
And, besides the names of the actors, which other credits do you want to appear in the video? (Writers, director, etc.).
The Sparky logo has to be used in the end? Or just the Stargate Atlantis logo?
Should the actors (in the close-up when their name is shown) be smiling or serious?
I might try a video, I use Corel VideoStudio, I'm not a CGI expert.
Let me know if that's enough, I'll get started.

[Scary Kitty]

Well, like SR said, anyone who wants to try their hand at putting together an opening credits video can do so, and we'll all vote on them. We probably don't need to have them right away, so you can take your time, even make more than one if you want to try out different ideas in music or video clips.

I would think the only names would be just the main cast, like the credits in S1-5. Of course, the opening credits also include that "created by Brad Wright and Robert C. Cooper" at the end, so I suppose we'll have to include that, too. *gags*

I'm sure the others will weigh in with some more ideas tomorrow.

In the meantime, it's bedtime for me! Nighty-night, Sparkies!

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

I was thinking if we do a season 7 what about Bringing back Carson Full Time? And actually including him in the credits so it would be like with david Hewlett as Dr. McKay Paul McGillion as Dr. Carson Beckett and Torri Higginson as Dr. Elizabeth Weir. Just an idea. Don't really expect it to be rubber stamped.

[Anuna]

Hmmm...

Spoiler:

I agree that the familial emphasis is most important, but I do see a possibility that Teyla could have been happy romantically with John in one sense. They're both good people, and Teyla seems to me to be the kind of person who goes 'all in'. A little like Marianne Dashwood in Sense & Sensibility, she couldn't love with half a heart. If they'd started, she would have fought to make it work, and love him. And I just can't see John treating her badly. His failing would be in not being able to be fully devoted to her. Which I think she would understand, but it would hurt her, yet she would hang on, unlike Nancy. In the end it's not 'unable to love' so much as 'imperfect love'.

I feel the same with that as I would with Ronon/Teyla. I think they also could have been romantic, especially early on in S2. I think the possibility of a relationship was there early on, and probably should be another AU timeline. But Ronon is also different for her, enough so that his love, too, would be imperfect.

But the problem with both of them is they would not be the best case scenario. There would have been imperfections, whereas Kanaan is best case scenario. And maybe that is sort of the answer of what we're looking for in BOD--like maybe Teyla fears that she's not loving him wholly because she has doubts or 'what if' questions. By the end, she realizes that her love with Kanaan is as great as it might have been with anyone else and is actually deeper and stronger and truer for her because of how deeply connected they are in culture and understanding. Not just with Torren, but with everything. Her AU answers all our questions about Kanaan (that biggest one for both Teyla and the viewers being 'did she really love him or was he convenient because she accidentally got pregnant?')

And in having that love with Kanaan, she realizes everything she might have felt for the other boys no longer exists for her--that she has the love of John and Ronon as family and she is perfectly satisfied with that. And maybe that realization is what she gains from this AU to complete her happiness.

And answers our questions too!

Probie, that is great news! *hugs* I hope your nephew recovers soon!


My further musings on BOD...

Spoiler:

In one way, John and Teyla are too similar. They both go "all in". It's just how I see them, when Teyla joined the expedition her devotion was completely on the side of expedition. I guess that put all of her devotion into the expedition's cause because she recognized it's the best for her, her people, everything she believed in. Perhaps, along that path, she sacrificed what could have beens with John or with Ronon or some other boy. Not because it would have never worked, but because something along the way was more important. I believe that teyla - and well the same could be said for everyone else in the expedition - built her life around her duty, around the higher prupose of protecting and defeating the Wraith, and the team was her family along that path. I dare say they were of more value to her than a potential love, no matter how wonderful it could have been.

A 'what if' always remains. I think it's just a normal thing in one's life, tor eexamine their decisions and decide 'this is my life, the way I built it, and I am happy about it'. That's what I want to do in the story.

Here comes an interesting question. The reasoning I outlined above can be held for sparky too. A big reason of why they never acted on their feelings are their duties. Of course, whne Elizabeth is not John's boss any more, certain things are going to change. How do we address John's devotion, then? What happens with Elizabeth's ideals? Won't their love also be imperfect - but dare I say happy too? More importantly, are they free, in their hearts, to chose that happiness now? In S1, if we're sticking strictly to canon, it was IMO too soon for that and both were working through their duties, and barely forming their bond over that very duty and learning to respect each other. However, they've done all of that, and more importantly, they've lost each other too, and I believe that is a considerable difference. The "I don't want to lose you again" comes into play, and that never happened with John and Teyla. Thoughts?

There is a problem, though. I don't know how to work in the saving of Kate. I mean, i have an idea, but I fear it's not plausible, so I wouldn't mind your suggestions.

[Southern Red]

If I'm not mistaken, the video you are talking about is the opening credits for each episode and two versions are needed: one without Torri for early Season and one with Torri starting from when she officially appears.
I suppose the music has to be the official Atlantis intro or you want it to be different?
And, besides the names of the actors, which other credits do you want to appear in the video? (Writers, director, etc.).
The Sparky logo has to be used in the end? Or just the Stargate Atlantis logo?
Should the actors (in the close-up when their name is shown) be smiling or serious?
I might try a video, I use Corel VideoStudio, I'm not a CGI expert.
Let me know if that's enough, I'll get started.

That is correct, one without Torri to begin and then we can add her in later. It doesn't have to be a radically different video. I'd say the actors should be mostly serious. We need a "created by Brad Wright and Robert Cooper" but since we are now doing it we need to add us. We need a short version of "the Sparky thread on GW". Something short and not awkward. Suggestions?

We're still open to suggestions on the music. If you have a good piece to use, try it.

I was thinking if we do a season 7 what about Bringing back Carson Full Time? And actually including him in the credits so it would be like with david Hewlett as Dr. McKay Paul McGillion as Dr. Carson Beckett and Torri Higginson as Dr. Elizabeth Weir. Just an idea. Don't really expect it to be rubber stamped.

Look at Reiko's post on this page.

Probie, that is great news! *hugs* I hope your nephew recovers soon!


My further musings on BOD...

Spoiler:

In one way, John and Teyla are too similar. They both go "all in". It's just how I see them, when Teyla joined the expedition her devotion was completely on the side of expedition. I guess that put all of her devotion into the expedition's cause because she recognized it's the best for her, her people, everything she believed in. Perhaps, along that path, she sacrificed what could have beens with John or with Ronon or some other boy. Not because it would have never worked, but because something along the way was more important. I believe that teyla - and well the same could be said for everyone else in the expedition - built her life around her duty, around the higher prupose of protecting and defeating the Wraith, and the team was her family along that path. I dare say they were of more value to her than a potential love, no matter how wonderful it could have been.

A 'what if' always remains. I think it's just a normal thing in one's life, tor eexamine their decisions and decide 'this is my life, the way I built it, and I am happy about it'. That's what I want to do in the story.

Here comes an interesting question. The reasoning I outlined above can be held for sparky too. A big reason of why they never acted on their feelings are their duties. Of course, whne Elizabeth is not John's boss any more, certain things are going to change. How do we address John's devotion, then? What happens with Elizabeth's ideals? Won't their love also be imperfect - but dare I say happy too? More importantly, are they free, in their hearts, to chose that happiness now? In S1, if we're sticking strictly to canon, it was IMO too soon for that and both were working through their duties, and barely forming their bond over that very duty and learning to respect each other. However, they've done all of that, and more importantly, they've lost each other too, and I believe that is a considerable difference. The "I don't want to lose you again" comes into play, and that never happened with John and Teyla. Thoughts?

There is a problem, though. I don't know how to work in the saving of Kate. I mean, i have an idea, but I fear it's not plausible, so I wouldn't mind your suggestions.

Yeah, I can see a potentially awkward explanation of why Elizabeth but why not Teyla coming out of the idea that Teyla and John gave each other up for their people. Isn't that what Sparky did too? So I think we should emphasize that yeah, there was an initial attraction but when they got into the team and became like family it turned in a different direction in our universe. Now if you mean to have them try a relationship in another AU, which our Teyla is able to experience and understand how it wouldn't have worked as well as Teyla/Kanaan and John/Elizabeth, then the explanation will be more logical. Did that make sense? In other words, Elizabeth and John belong together and no power in the 'verse can keep them apart. *Hrumps.* I think Teyla's devotion to her people is her #1 motivator. She has a strong need to carry on the Athosian heritage which a match with John would not do.

Also, even in the midst of some of their worst situations in S4 Teyla went and got involved with Kanaan. So why would the situations in the earlier years have kept her and John apart? Not logical. John jumped into a romantic situation with Chaya right in Teyla's face. So he wasn't exactly giving up "love" for the expedition. Of course, I am trying to assign logic or the lack thereof to TPTB and we all know that doesn't compute.

Now in an AU, of course, you can pick any permutation of a million subtle differences and see how it would have played out. Your choice on whether it ends happy or not. If I grit my teeth and squint, I can see our Teyla after her dream of the AU, looking at John wistfully for just a second and then realizing she is happy with Kanaan and not thinking about it again.

And that is what happens when I brainstorm with myself. It's not pretty. *goes for more coffee*

[ddc]

That is correct, one without Torri to begin and then we can add her in later. It doesn't have to be a radically different video. I'd say the actors should be mostly serious. We need a "created by Brad Wright and Robert Cooper" but since we are now doing it we need to add us. We need a short version of "the Sparky thread on GW". Something short and not awkward. Suggestions?

We're still open to suggestions on the music. If you have a good piece to use, try it.



Look at Reiko's post on this page.



Yeah, I can see a potentially awkward explanation of why Elizabeth but why not Teyla coming out of the idea that Teyla and John gave each other up for their people. Isn't that what Sparky did too? So I think we should emphasize that yeah, there was an initial attraction but when they got into the team and became like family it turned in a different direction in our universe. Now if you mean to have them try a relationship in another AU, which our Teyla is able to experience and understand how it wouldn't have worked as well as Teyla/Kanaan and John/Elizabeth, then the explanation will be more logical. Did that make sense? In other words, Elizabeth and John belong together and no power in the 'verse can keep them apart. *Hrumps.* I think Teyla's devotion to her people is her #1 motivator. She has a strong need to carry on the Athosian heritage which a match with John would not do.

Also, even in the midst of some of their worst situations in S4 Teyla went and got involved with Kanaan. So why would the situations in the earlier years have kept her and John apart? Not logical. John jumped into a romantic situation with Chaya right in Teyla's face. So he wasn't exactly giving up "love" for the expedition. Of course, I am trying to assign logic or the lack thereof to TPTB and we all know that doesn't compute.

Now in an AU, of course, you can pick any permutation of a million subtle differences and see how it would have played out. Your choice on whether it ends happy or not. If I grit my teeth and squint, I can see our Teyla after her dream of the AU, looking at John wistfully for just a second and then realizing she is happy with Kanaan and not thinking about it again.

And that is what happens when I brainstorm with myself. It's not pretty. *goes for more coffee*

Something to remember on the bolded part - when the expedition began Elizabeth was still with Simon. And we have no idea how long it had been since John and Nancy divorced. It was too soon for either of them to start anything.

[Southern Red]

Something to remember on the bolded part - when the expedition began Elizabeth was still with Simon. And we have no idea how long it had been since John and Nancy divorced. It was too soon for either of them to start anything.

Good point. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, John said something to Nancy in Outcast about not having seen her in 4 years. Now that could mean a lot of things and not necessarily that they only have been divorced for 4 years but I'm betting they divorced right before he went to Antarctica and John was still a bit bruised. And yeah, we like to pretend Simon never existed. Another bit of bad writing because they originally intended him to be her husband according to Garwin Sanford and later changed their minds. Hmm? I wonder why. I don't think when they initially planned out the pilot they intended to ship Elizabeth with anybody but planned to have her stay with Simon. Which puzzles me even more because that would have been a good way to stop the Sparky speculation. If they were dead set against Sparky, why not make it impossible? Yet, what did they do? They had them flirt outrageously while denying any ship. Sound like a subversive plan to me.

[Anuna]

whoops. Sorry about that.

[Anuna]

Yeah, I can see a potentially awkward explanation of why Elizabeth but why not Teyla coming out of the idea that Teyla and John gave each other up for their people. Isn't that what Sparky did too? So I think we should emphasize that yeah, there was an initial attraction but when they got into the team and became like family it turned in a different direction in our universe. Now if you mean to have them try a relationship in another AU, which our Teyla is able to experience and understand how it wouldn't have worked as well as Teyla/Kanaan and John/Elizabeth, then the explanation will be more logical. Did that make sense? In other words, Elizabeth and John belong together and no power in the 'verse can keep them apart. *Hrumps.* I think Teyla's devotion to her people is her #1 motivator. She has a strong need to carry on the Athosian heritage which a match with John would not do.

Also, even in the midst of some of their worst situations in S4 Teyla went and got involved with Kanaan. So why would the situations in the earlier years have kept her and John apart? Not logical. John jumped into a romantic situation with Chaya right in Teyla's face. So he wasn't exactly giving up "love" for the expedition. Of course, I am trying to assign logic or the lack thereof to TPTB and we all know that doesn't compute.

Now in an AU, of course, you can pick any permutation of a million subtle differences and see how it would have played out. Your choice on whether it ends happy or not. If I grit my teeth and squint, I can see our Teyla after her dream of the AU, looking at John wistfully for just a second and then realizing she is happy with Kanaan and not thinking about it again.

And that is what happens when I brainstorm with myself. It's not pretty. *goes for more coffee*

Actually, one thing that doesn't separate John and Elizabeth, while it does separate John and Teyla are cultural differences.

Spoiler:

After all is said and done she remains an Athosian. I feel she deliberatly kept a tight hold onto her cultural identity, because, like we said, her people is her prime and most valued motivation. If she and John were to be together after the war was over (in some perfect universe) then one of them would have to give up on their cultural identity, and I don't see it happening for either of them. Both are deeply rooted in their cultures.

One could argue that John feels 'at home' in Pegasus galaxy and wouldn't mind living with Athosians. He is a simple man who doesn't need extraordinary things for happiness. But, one of my personal pet peeves (and it's a huge pet peeve at that) is when I see John, in fiction, giving up on his identity (any sort of identity - political, cultural, whatever) for love interest's identity. Yes, he adjusts wonderfully, and he is capable of giving and giving, and it's easy to portray him like a man who wants to please the eprson he loves by becoming more like her (or him? lol) but I don't want to see him ending up like that. On the other hand, Teyla would be unhappy on Earth. I really don't have to think much about that, and reach the conclusion.

[Eri13]

[SIZE="2"]

I could do this but it might take awhile because I'll be using a different computer. Another thing is that I cannot find my installation software. But given that opening credits don't use a whole bunch of clips, I might give it a shot (if I find Premeire -- don't want to use WMM!) I actually have ideas, which is probably a bad thing. Anyhow, you might want to find someone else since I'm unreliable at the moment.

Oh, and I was wondering, if I do get to have a shot at this -- how would you feel if the opening credits song was changed? Because my concept idea is completely based around using my own song choice. Just throwing that out there.

But yeah, maybe you should get someone else anyhow and I'll take this on as a fun side project (maybe for s7 credits?) when I have the resources/time.

^snipped for length cuz I talk too much

To paraphrase what has been said by others, I'm fine with either. I suggested Torri as the "and" to recognize her special status of returning to the show once she'd been cut, in the same vein as Michael Shanks was awarded in the latter have of SG-1.

And I will have to absolutely vote 100% that we keep the Atlantis theme with these. Sorry, I am the continuity queen. But I don't feel it'll be like Atlantis if we don't use the opening credit title score.

If I'm not mistaken, the video you are talking about is the opening credits for each episode and two versions are needed: one without Torri for early Season and one with Torri starting from when she officially appears.
I suppose the music has to be the official Atlantis intro or you want it to be different?
And, besides the names of the actors, which other credits do you want to appear in the video? (Writers, director, etc.).
The Sparky logo has to be used in the end? Or just the Stargate Atlantis logo?
Should the actors (in the close-up when their name is shown) be smiling or serious?
I might try a video, I use Corel VideoStudio, I'm not a CGI expert.
Let me know if that's enough, I'll get started.

No--just one set of credits. The old credits will work through the middle of S6. The new credits will then have to in place starting with "Lockdown". We'll give Paul a special title credit in the title cards as 'special guest star' to recognize we see him as a regular.

Well, like SR said, anyone who wants to try their hand at putting together an opening credits video can do so, and we'll all vote on them. We probably don't need to have them right away, so you can take your time, even make more than one if you want to try out different ideas in music or video clips.

I would think the only names would be just the main cast, like the credits in S1-5. Of course, the opening credits also include that "created by Brad Wright and Robert C. Cooper" at the end, so I suppose we'll have to include that, too. *gags*

I'm sure the others will weigh in with some more ideas tomorrow.

In the meantime, it's bedtime for me! Nighty-night, Sparkies!

Yes, I agree on the voting thing too.

HOWEVER--I want this to be clear--TAKE. YOUR. TIME. I don't want anyone's feelings hurt because they whipped up a quick credit slate in a week to beat everybody else and then we vote 'no'. When I say kick*** opening credit, for me, at least, I mean KICK*** OPENING CREDITS. I mean schooling yourself in doing stuff you've never done before and HAVING FUN WITH IT!!!

The current credits have a blue-tinged overlay and a cool flash-effect to pause a frame and make it look like a still picture--it's stuff like that which will make credits really look awesome. Compare S1 credits to S2 and see the difference. Adobe AfterEffects will let you do a lot of that kind of stuff. Much of what happens in those credits is multiple timelines, sizing, lighting, etc. Just WOW WOW! kinda stuff.

Do THAT. Take a shot at it. I can guarantee the writers will not be cranking out the first 11 episodes of the season anytime soon, so everyone has tons and tons of time to get proper video programs, go slowly, use perfect video clips, etc. Make this an opportunity to really step up your level of video production and teach yourself something new, difficult, frustrating and AWESOME.

I was thinking if we do a season 7 what about Bringing back Carson Full Time? And actually including him in the credits so it would be like with david Hewlett as Dr. McKay Paul McGillion as Dr. Carson Beckett and Torri Higginson as Dr. Elizabeth Weir. Just an idea. Don't really expect it to be rubber stamped.

*sigh*

Please--as has been said before--read the previous posts. If you had gone back over the last two days worth of posts, you'd see that's exactly what we've been discussing.

Probie, that is great news! *hugs* I hope your nephew recovers soon!

My further musings on BOD...




There is a problem, though. I don't know how to work in the saving of Kate. I mean, i have an idea, but I fear it's not plausible, so I wouldn't mind your suggestions.

As to Kate, I'm not sure! I'd have to muse on it. As to the other, John and Elizabeth are distinctly different, for me, than any others...

Spoiler:

...in that John and Elizabeth have the same sort of understanding as to what comes first. IMO, I think they'd always put Atlantis first. Duty first. That never changes, even when she comes back. That's not to say that they wouldn't love, or love passionately or strongly, but it's all wrapped up into one big ideal. They've sort of always been that way about Atlantis, that's why they 'clicked' and why in episodes like "Common Ground" and "Adrift" they know the other's primary desire is to protect Atlantis, even if it means the other dies. What they want more than anything else, even their own personal needs, is to make sure the other's wishes are met--that's their understanding, and the way they'd show 'love' for someone similar to them.

With Elizabeth, she's different for me from Teyla. Not as 'personal'. I think of her and Simon, and compare Teyla and Kanaan, and Elizabeth is okay leaving Simon behind in pursuit of something Elizabeth deems 'more important' than a relationship or a lover. Teyla I don't think that's true for. Elizabeth rejected 'bearded Mike' because she didn't have time for a relationship--it conflicted with her duty. Teyla grows intimate with Kanaan because she needs that relationship due to the weight her duty placed on her. She doesn't see it as conflicting--she needs it. And not only does she fight to keep Kanaan, but from what I understand, he remains with her on Atlantis to raise Torren, showing she's not content with him being far from her. I don't think Teyla's true happiness lies in devotion to Atlantis, but rather in the knowledge that she is doing something to keep her people safe for generations to come.

Teyla sacrificed a life with her people to make life better for her people. Elizabeth sacrificed her life with Simon to go on the trip of a lifetime. Eventually I think Elizabeth's interests became more selfless in that it became her number one goal to protect the expedition and its people, but her entire life is Atlantis, and Simon was that little ancillary puzzle piece that was missing that would have made it 'perfect'. Which is why it's a slap in the face initially that Simon cheats and opts not to go with her, because in her mind poor Simon was the cherry on top. But he doesn't want to be. And that realization doesn't break Elizabeth. One episode later, and her attitude is kinda like 'Simon who?' Even in the Real World, where she looks at the doctor like he's nuts because he suggests she had a mental breakdown over Simon--sort like 'why would I lose it over Simon?'

John, in a sense, is the same way, though his take was 'what the hell do I have to lose?' When Atlantis becomes his family, he'll do anything and everything in his power to protect it, but I think when it came down to his own personal happiness, it was hard for him to choose anything that interfered with devotion to 'the cause'. Even Teyla or someone else that would conflict with that duty. Someone already did, in that Nancy and he had the same type of relationship on Earth and he could not sacrifice the chance to do 'good' over saving his marriage. John has an overwhelming, almost impossible, sense of do-gooderness. There would always be someone to save, and if he could fly a chopper and risk his life to save that someone, he would. Even if it meant losing personal happiness--or rather, like Elizabeth, that IS his personal happiness. If he didn't have that idealism, he'd be stuck feeling as though his life was worth nothing (Vegas).

Which is why, to me, he and Elizabeth are perfect matches. Because neither would ask the other to compromise their duty to higher causes/ideals, and essentially their cause is the same--Atlantis and its people. Their feelings are 'synced'. The love that could come out of it flows in and around the cracks, filling the blank spaces and emptiness/loneliness that such a weighty purpose in life places on both of them. It's not independent of the duty, it's wrapped completely in it.

The effect of losing Elizabeth, for John, opens his eyes to what her loss meant to him--that maybe he realizes there is a person there who 'gets him' but doesn't ask more of him than he can give. For Elizabeth, though she doesn't go two years without him, he's the one person who is still the same as she remembers, whose life hasn't gone through a significant change. Yet there's enough of a change--less boyishness, I guess--to make their interactions more serious, a little deeper, a little more intense. With everyone else paired off, they rely on each other a little more and eventually there is the realization that that 'reliance' is something more than they realized. That may be another cheesy 'bang-pow' moment ("I can't lose him!" or something).

But it's not Teyla's love story, or Rodney's, because they're different from those characters. It's wrapped up in Atlantis, their devotion to the Atlantis family and how they work together. To me, John and Elizabeth need someone else who supports their purpose without asking them to change and yet who can still love them for being that way. They can do that for the other, and though it might not solve the 'self-sacrificing' tendencies they'll have in seeing Atlantis as safe as possible, it might curb, a little, the notion of giving up easily. Because now, on top of the duty, there is something a little personal to fight for until the very last breath, too.

It's Ghost in the Machine--'what if one of them wants to stay': that little bit of selfishness amidst their idealism. Finally finding that puzzle piece that completes the picture, but doesn't require the picture to change.

[Eri13]

That is correct, one without Torri to begin and then we can add her in later. It doesn't have to be a radically different video. I'd say the actors should be mostly serious. We need a "created by Brad Wright and Robert Cooper" but since we are now doing it we need to add us. We need a short version of "the Sparky thread on GW". Something short and not awkward. Suggestions?

We're still open to suggestions on the music. If you have a good piece to use, try it.

Look at Reiko's post on this page.

Yeah, I can see a potentially awkward explanation of why Elizabeth but why not Teyla coming out of the idea that Teyla and John gave each other up for their people. Isn't that what Sparky did too? So I think we should emphasize that yeah, there was an initial attraction but when they got into the team and became like family it turned in a different direction in our universe. Now if you mean to have them try a relationship in another AU, which our Teyla is able to experience and understand how it wouldn't have worked as well as Teyla/Kanaan and John/Elizabeth, then the explanation will be more logical. Did that make sense? In other words, Elizabeth and John belong together and no power in the 'verse can keep them apart. *Hrumps.* I think Teyla's devotion to her people is her #1 motivator. She has a strong need to carry on the Athosian heritage which a match with John would not do.

Also, even in the midst of some of their worst situations in S4 Teyla went and got involved with Kanaan. So why would the situations in the earlier years have kept her and John apart? Not logical. John jumped into a romantic situation with Chaya right in Teyla's face. So he wasn't exactly giving up "love" for the expedition. Of course, I am trying to assign logic or the lack thereof to TPTB and we all know that doesn't compute.

Now in an AU, of course, you can pick any permutation of a million subtle differences and see how it would have played out. Your choice on whether it ends happy or not. If I grit my teeth and squint, I can see our Teyla after her dream of the AU, looking at John wistfully for just a second and then realizing she is happy with Kanaan and not thinking about it again.

And that is what happens when I brainstorm with myself. It's not pretty. *goes for more coffee*

I forgot about the new Showrunner--I don't remember the end--was the only title card in the cast credits the 'created by' card, or did they mention JM/PM by S3? Or were they in the title card credits over the opening scenes following the first break? If it was only the 'created by' we can get by with the old credits until midway through the season, but if we need to update the showrunners then we need to update the showrunners.

*hides for disagreeing with the boss* I just like the original Atlantis credit music. I think it needs to stay. But yous the boss.