Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[nephtys59]

Hello sparkies. I've been busy with RL, but I decided to stop by. I promised some sparky Valentine's Day treats, but I finish up Monday morning, so I'll deliver them then. In the mean time, y'all can pick from a few songs for the story.

True Love Ways

We Belong Together (click play on the track list.)

Someone to Watch Over Me

Amazing

Which ever one y'all like I'll base the fic on.

Well, the choice is not hard to me, first of all I'm a rock addict, so my vote goes to Aerosmith's Amazing
But I'll read the fic, whatever song it's based on

---

Talking about fics, I put my hands only today on a wonderful fic of 4 years ago, based on my favourite episode of Atlantis (Before I Sleep). That alternative story assumes John will be found with Elizabeth in another stasis pod. Best fic I read up to now!
It's here: Beginning's End but probably you all know it and I'm late

[Southern Red]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Sparky!Family Saturday!



And it's in LA, too. I could go see it! *fangirl squeal*



How did I not think of that? *headdesk*

There's that moment at the end of The Hive where Team Shep comes the gate... Ronon's head is in the shot, though it's mostly blocked by Elizabeth's head while she and John are having more eye!sex.

The moment when John comes through the gate in The Last Man. Maybe two, one when he winds up in future!Atlantis, and one when he returns. There's probably more.

Good spotting those scenes. I'm sure there are more too. But I can't think of a single one with any other character.

this is a hard choice for me! I love Ritchie Valens....grew up with Aerosmith (and love that song) and "Someone to Watch Over Me"? only like the best song ever!

um....for Sparky? hmmmm...."Someone to Watch Over Me"....
*backs out of thread before she changes her mind*

I like that one also. It's very Sparky.

[Scary Kitty]

Hello sparkies. I've been busy with RL, but I decided to stop by. I promised some sparky Valentine's Day treats, but I finish up Monday morning, so I'll deliver them then. In the mean time, y'all can pick from a few songs for the story.

True Love Ways

We Belong Together (click play on the track list.)

Someone to Watch Over Me

Amazing

Which ever one y'all like I'll base the fic on.

I've got to go with the majority and vote for 'Someone to Watch Over Me.'

Talking about fics, I put my hands only today on a wonderful fic of 4 years ago, based on my favourite episode of Atlantis (Before I Sleep). That alternative story assumes John will be found with Elizabeth in another stasis pod. Best fic I read up to now!
It's here: Beginning's End but probably you all know it and I'm late

Ahhh, great choice!

Good spotting those scenes. I'm sure there are more too. But I can't think of a single one with any other character.

Neither can I. I think the only 'silhouette against the gate' type shots with the other characters are group shots. They're not singled out the way Elizabeth and John are.

[Reiko]

*sticks fingers in ears and starts singing loudly*

Ah. That's the spirit.

Just popping in quickly to drop off some Torri news - she's going to be in the play "Much Ado About Nothing".................

http://losangeles.broadwayworld.com/...36321_20100212

Even though I won't ever be able to go see it, I'm super excited for Torri! YAY!

Thanks for posting the article -- I wish I could go see the play but LA is way too far. (And Torri was Lady MacBeth once? Awesome.)

[Erin87]

Just popping in quickly to drop off some Torri news - she's going to be in the play "Much Ado About Nothing".................

http://losangeles.broadwayworld.com/...36321_20100212

Even though I won't ever be able to go see it, I'm super excited for Torri! YAY!

And, yesterday's foodfest sent me into a carbohydrate induced stupor for the afternoon and evening.....still a little sluggish.....time to start drinking coffee!

Oh, that's cool! Good for her.

-

And here are my offerings for the banner for our community.

Option 1:

Spoiler:

Option 2:

Spoiler:

[Eri13]

I have to say that I think that this is one of the most intellectually fierce threads on GW. Really.

Very interesting analysis, Eri! (The whole post, not just this quoted bit). The bolded portion of the quoted statement above happened to pop out at me, though, in relation to your entire post. The long, lingering image of Elizabeth's expression framed by the stargate is used three times within the series (as I recall): Rising, The Return, and finally, Ghost in the Machine. Has the same thing been used for any other character? I don't think so, at least not that I can recall.

So, perhaps Elizabeth's fate = fate of Atlantis? That is what happens it GitM, after all.

Ah, thanks. I don't own season 5 on DVD and don't have the episode downloaded so screencaps really do help ... I'll look through more screencaps before I post my (somewhat contrived) analysis.

That's a very cool article there and that's exactly what I'm referring to. Parallelism.

I personally thought that when John was unable to meet her gazed it added to the whole finality of the scene. Elizabeth really isn't coming back (as TPTB saw it). John always meets her eyes, but he isn't this time. I don't know if John the character actually knows it (perhaps subconciously -- I'm sure he always thinks of rescuing her post-GitM, though), but TPTB notes it, so it's their little way of telling the audience "it's over".

Well, you were thinking along the same lines of what I was thinking!

That's great!

That point bolded is actually proven in the opening sequence of Adrift. Elizabeth dying = city dying and as Rodney is trying to 'stop the bleeding' of Atlantis, Keller is trying to 'stop the bleeding' of Elizabeth. We owe Marty Gero that parallelism. But it's completely textbook, and if anyone ever questions whether Elizabeth = Atlantis, point them to that scene. Generally, I'm open-minded when people try to argue things that I see but that I know are based on my rationalization of certain scenes, but that scene is one that I'm unshakable on. Elizabeth was paralleled to Atlantis there, which plays up the implication first made in Rising and Before I Sleep.

Sorry, but there's no arguing that no matter how much you try.

Just popping in quickly to drop off some Torri news - she's going to be in the play "Much Ado About Nothing".................

http://losangeles.broadwayworld.com/...36321_20100212

Even though I won't ever be able to go see it, I'm super excited for Torri! YAY!

And, yesterday's foodfest sent me into a carbohydrate induced stupor for the afternoon and evening.....still a little sluggish.....time to start drinking coffee!

YAY! SHE'S BEATRICE! Oh, SK, you have to go and see it and let us see her through you vicariously! I love Beatrice, she's one of my favorite Shakespeare heroines! *jealous*

Thanks to SK for pointing out the puddle/Eliz scene in Progeny.

I'd also add this bit from No Man's Land when she was recalled to Earth. Though it's not her expression in profile.

Spoiler:

I guess also you could present an argument for John being framed by the puddle on a number of occasions--Rising, first when he first enters the wormhole and later when he goes to Athos and turns to wave at her. I also believe there have been other times. I recall him being framed by the puddle while firing at a dart once. Was that Duet? Yes, here.

Spoiler:

I'm betting there are other times also. I'll think later.

If those are the only two characters, then it solidifies their connection not only to Atlantis but to each other. Hello Shakespeare, you 'da man buddy.

And on John not being able to meet her eyes in the final final scene. How many times did they turn to each other in a moment of crisis to get that reassurance that they were doing the right thing, to make a decision without having to discuss it verbally or just to get a feeling a being centered? When Franibeth walked through that event horizon John knew that at last the bond was broken and he had nobody left to give him that feeling of calm strength. His whole world was turned upside down and hope was lost. But John like he buried it and just soldiered on. This was a turning point for him and I think he came as close there to being the Vegas!John that we'll ever see.

I like all the analyses of John's expression. Thinking on it longer--one thing that's interesting is as he looks away, her smile grows slightly. It makes me think that she knows he can't hold her eyes because, though he's agreed, he's not really agreed to do this because he wants to. He's doing this because it's what she wants. She appreciates that about him, that's he's selfless enough to not say anything or guilt her into changing her mind. She also knows he can't watch her make that final walk because every single part of him doesn't want her to, so her smile is glad that someone will miss her or cares about her that much..

Oh, that's cool! Good for her.

-

And here are my offerings for the banner for our community.

Option 1:

Spoiler:

Option 2:

Spoiler:

Very awesome! I think I'm partial to the yellow.

You're going to have to bear with me as far as the banner header goes--I don't think I'm going to have a ton of time this weekend. With the snow my schedule went haywire. This is the first time I'm near a computer today and tomorrow everything is no better. I'm trying to upload snow pictures but that may have to wait until Monday.

We did not need snowplows or burly snow shoverlers *DRAT*. Our snow melted today.

But then we're supposed to get more tomorrow!

I'm trying to publish the end of Testament tonight. Cross your fingers for me.

[Scary Kitty]

Ah. That's the spirit.

You betcha.

Thanks for posting the article -- I wish I could go see the play but LA is way too far. (And Torri was Lady MacBeth once? Awesome.)[/SIZE]

No kidding! From Lady Macbeth to Beatrice! Torri's got some range!

And here are my offerings for the banner for our community.

Option 1:

Spoiler:

Option 2:

Spoiler:

My vote's for the blue. But then, to my thinking, Atlantis = ocean = blue.

That point bolded is actually proven in the opening sequence of Adrift. Elizabeth dying = city dying and as Rodney is trying to 'stop the bleeding' of Atlantis, Keller is trying to 'stop the bleeding' of Elizabeth. We owe Marty Gero that parallelism. But it's completely textbook, and if anyone ever questions whether Elizabeth = Atlantis, point them to that scene. Generally, I'm open-minded when people try to argue things that I see but that I know are based on my rationalization of certain scenes, but that scene is one that I'm unshakable on. Elizabeth was paralleled to Atlantis there, which plays up the implication first made in Rising and Before I Sleep.

Sorry, but there's no arguing that no matter how much you try.

You've got that right! And some people actually think that Elizabeth was only a "supporting" character. Supporting, my pasty white butt.

YAY! SHE'S BEATRICE! Oh, SK, you have to go and see it and let us see her through you vicariously! I love Beatrice, she's one of my favorite Shakespeare heroines! *jealous*

Beatrice is AWESOME, and we all know Torri can sink her teeth into a role like that. Damn, I'm gonna have to pick a day I want to go...

I like all the analyses of John's expression. Thinking on it longer--one thing that's interesting is as he looks away, her smile grows slightly. It makes me think that she knows he can't hold her eyes because, though he's agreed, he's not really agreed to do this because he wants to. He's doing this because it's what she wants. She appreciates that about him, that's he's selfless enough to not say anything or guilt her into changing her mind. She also knows he can't watch her make that final walk because every single part of him doesn't want her to, so her smile is glad that someone will miss her or cares about her that much..

*whimpers*

And... ack, more snow? *sends more hot cocoa*

I'm trying to publish the end of Testament tonight. Cross your fingers for me.

Whoo hoo! Go, Eri, go! *cheers*

[Southern Red]

Oh, that's cool! Good for her.

-

And here are my offerings for the banner for our community.

Option 1:

Spoiler:

Option 2:

Spoiler:

Lovely. I adore them both but think I like the blue one a bit more. So I guess that's one vote for each. We'll keep a tally. So everyone pick your favorite. *makes a stickie*

And a few more thoughts on John's expression in GitM. First of all allow me to shamelessly plug my vid on this episode: Answer

John's face throughout is showing us how torn he is with the decision that they all are struggling with. None so much as Elizabeth. This scene shows his anger/grief/uncertainty all at once.

Spoiler:

Franibeth and the other replicators are heading toward the gate. John lets them all walk by.


His expression gets more and more tense.


Look also at Ronon's woobie face.



John seems to be making a decision here.


And he reluctantly turns to go with them.


And is a bit slow to follow.


John and Ronon exchange a look. How I wish Ronon had touched him on the shoulder or something here.


Then they both join the parade.

That whole scene is almost as heartbreaking as the last one. And there is no way you can tell me that his expression shows his concern for the city. At this point the danger to the city was over. They had made a decision to let Elizabeth sacrifice herself in order to get rid of the danger to the city and even before that point he was mentioning to Woolsey that she might possibly want to stay. So if the city had been of utmost importance to John he would not have even considered letting any of them stay. He should be happy that she is leaving not looking like his world had just ended. NO. I repeat. NO! He was sad that she was leaving. That he was losing her yet again and there was not a damn thing he could do to stop it because it was her choice and he cared enough about her to honor her wish just as he had in Adrift when he knew she would not want to live as part replicator. Now if that doesn't illustrate someone who cares deeply for another person, whether it be love or just friendship, I don't know what does. Whew! Rant over.

[Scary Kitty]

Lovely. I adore them both but think I like the blue one a bit more. So I guess that's one vote for each. We'll keep a tally. So everyone pick your favorite. *makes a stickie*

*waves* I voted blue, too!

Look also at Ronon's woobie face.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...-5x05-4193.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...-5x05-4194.jpg


John and Ronon exchange a look. How I wish Ronon had touched him on the shoulder or something here.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...-5x05-4198.jpg

Then they both join the parade.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...-5x05-4199.jpg

Yet more proof that Ronon is right there in John's head, understanding John's pain better than anyone. (And perhaps Ronon was crushing a little on Elizabeth, too. Yeah. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. )

That whole scene is almost as heartbreaking as the last one. And there is no way you can tell me that his expression shows his concern for the city. At this point the danger to the city was over. They had made a decision to let Elizabeth sacrifice herself in order to get rid of the danger to the city and even before that point he was mentioning to Woolsey that she might possibly want to stay. So if the city had been of utmost importance to John he would not have even considered letting any of them stay. He should be happy that she is leaving not looking like his world had just ended. NO. I repeat. NO! He was sad that she was leaving. That he was losing her yet again and there was not a damn thing he could do to stop it because it was her choice and he cared enough about her to honor her wish just as he had in Adrift when he knew she would not want to live as part replicator. Now if that doesn't illustrate someone who cares deeply for another person, whether it be love or just friendship, I don't know what does. Whew! Rant over.

And a good rant it was, too! Ever since Adrift, John's looked on the verge of breaking over Elizabeth too many times for it to be something to be casually dismissed. Once is accident. Twice is coincidence. Three times is conspiracy. It's gone way beyond even that. There is just no way that anyone can convince me that there wasn't something more there.

[Scary Kitty]

Ooooh! Eri posted the final three chapters of Testament! Go have a read!

Spoiler:

YES! John got to break Thorvir's jaw! Whoo hoo! That's the least of what that little b*****d deserved! *does a victory dance* Karon's still a little s**t, but he's gotten a clue, so at least there's hope for him. Neela, of course, was awesome.

Elizabeth fainted and John caught her... *sighs and melts*

And oh, That Hug on The Balcony! Awwwww!

[nephtys59]

And here are my offerings for the banner for our community.

Option 1:

Spoiler:

Option 2:

Spoiler:

Awesome! My preference goes to the blue one ... the ocean

That point bolded is actually proven in the opening sequence of Adrift. Elizabeth dying = city dying and as Rodney is trying to 'stop the bleeding' of Atlantis, Keller is trying to 'stop the bleeding' of Elizabeth. We owe Marty Gero that parallelism.

Absolutely agree
And may I suggest we use that parallelism once again in Sparky Season 6 (Lockdown)?

She also knows he can't watch her make that final walk because every single part of him doesn't want her to, so her smile is glad that someone will miss her or cares about her that much..

Even if I hate that episode, I can't deny JF did a wonderful job and he's the only reason why I accept GITM as canon.

And a few more thoughts on John's expression in GitM. First of all allow me to shamelessly plug my vid on this episode: Answer

How could I miss this one? It's great! Heartbreaking.
I remember reading a fic that talked about this song at the end, was it yours?

I repeat. NO! He was sad that she was leaving. That he was losing her yet again and there was not a damn thing he could do to stop it because it was her choice and he cared enough about her to honor her wish just as he had in Adrift when he knew she would not want to live as part replicator. Now if that doesn't illustrate someone who cares deeply for another person, whether it be love or just friendship, I don't know what does. Whew! Rant over.

Talking about ranting ... I still want to slap writer's face about this episode ... 8 replicators floating in space ... not really dead, just freezed but still recoverable ... and Elizabeth doing things out of character, such as forcefully creating hew own body and tricking her friends not telling the truth about the other replicators coming ... they didn't "found her" ... they were waiting for the right moment to attack the city.

SHEPPARD: Well, whatever you are, I'd say building a Replicator body's a pretty big threat.
TEYLA: Elizabeth Weir would never do such a thing.
...
FRAN/WEIR: I truly believed that we were no threat to you.
SHEPPARD: You may still think that you're Elizabeth, but you're not.



Thanks God, Sparky Season 6 will fix this nightmare!

Ever since Adrift, John's looked on the verge of breaking over Elizabeth too many times for it to be something to be casually dismissed. Once is accident. Twice is coincidence. Three times is conspiracy. It's gone way beyond even that. There is just no way that anyone can convince me that there wasn't something more there.

No way. I second that

Ooooh! Eri posted the final three chapters of Testament! Go have a read!

Running to read!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Withous spoilers!!!!!!

[Southern Red]

*waves* I voted blue, too!



Yet more proof that Ronon is right there in John's head, understanding John's pain better than anyone. (And perhaps Ronon was crushing a little on Elizabeth, too. Yeah. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. )



And a good rant it was, too! Ever since Adrift, John's looked on the verge of breaking over Elizabeth too many times for it to be something to be casually dismissed. Once is accident. Twice is coincidence. Three times is conspiracy. It's gone way beyond even that. There is just no way that anyone can convince me that there wasn't something more there.

Vote recorded.

A lot of non-shippers were convinced there was more after GitM also.

Awesome! My preference goes to the blue one ... the ocean



Absolutely agree
And may I suggest we use that parallelism once again in Sparky Season 6 (Lockdown)?



Even if I hate that episode, I can't deny JF did a wonderful job and he's the only reason why I accept GITM as canon.



How could I miss this one? It's great! Heartbreaking.
I remember reading a fic that talked about this song at the end, was it yours?



Talking about ranting ... I still want to slap writer's face about this episode ... 8 replicators floating in space ... not really dead, just freezed but still recoverable ... and Elizabeth doing things out of character, such as forcefully creating hew own body and tricking her friends not telling the truth about the other replicators coming ... they didn't "found her" ... they were waiting for the right moment to attack the city.

SHEPPARD: Well, whatever you are, I'd say building a Replicator body's a pretty big threat.
TEYLA: Elizabeth Weir would never do such a thing.
...
FRAN/WEIR: I truly believed that we were no threat to you.
SHEPPARD: You may still think that you're Elizabeth, but you're not.



Thanks God, Sparky Season 6 will fix this nightmare!



No way. I second that



Running to read!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Withous spoilers!!!!!!

Vote recorded. Blue 3 Yellow 1

Glad you liked the vid. The fic wasn't mine. Maybe that's where I got the vid idea. LOL

There's a lot of disagreement among Sparkies about GitM. The reasons you gave for hating it are very valid. I'm not terribly convinced it actually was Elizabeth either because of the lines you quoted. According to JM they had an idea for S6 that it wasn't her and they would rescue her somehow. If I remember the details correctly.

However, I loved the episode for the feelings it showed between them. Just think that if John could show this much emotion and not be sure it was her, what would he do if he found the real Elizabeth? Wow! It would blow everybody's mind. Some of the complaints against this ep were that it didn't make much sense and that she was OOC. Well maybe that was intentional to make us doubt it was her. Her actions didn't make sense if it was the original unaltered Elizabeth. But she was altered in a big way. She may very well have been affected by the nanites and not be totally in control of her own actions. That's why she was so adamant to leave so as not to be a danger to anyone. And that's why John let her. It was what she wanted and needed to do and this time, unlike in Adrift, he wanted to get it right.

But it did make sense that she would save John by killing one of the replicators. And it made sense that he would want her to stay. That's another bit of parallelism that goes back to TMC.

[LtCdrFlygirl]

Great vid, SouthernRed...you made me cry!!!

[Southern Red]

Great vid, SouthernRed...you made me cry!!!

Thanks. That was my original intent.

[Scary Kitty]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Lazy Sunday, and Happy Valentine's Day!

Absolutely agree
And may I suggest we use that parallelism once again in Sparky Season 6 (Lockdown)?

I think that is the intention.

There's a lot of disagreement among Sparkies about GitM. The reasons you gave for hating it are very valid. I'm not terribly convinced it actually was Elizabeth either because of the lines you quoted. According to JM they had an idea for S6 that it wasn't her and they would rescue her somehow. If I remember the details correctly.

I'm not convinced FRANibeth was the real Weir, either.

As for Mallozzi's idea regarding Weir, here's the interview I think you're thinking of; the relevant portion is halfway down the linked page, but I'll repost the quote here:

Spoiler:

What were your plans for Replicator Weir, had you been able to get Torri Higginson back for this season?

When we were first tossing it around, we wanted to open the door to having Weir be the leader of this "rebel group" of replicators. At the end of the episode they're jettisoned into space, and that's how we pretty much ended that story ["Be All My Sins Remember'd," 4x11]. At the least we wanted to leave the door open and potentially have them out there.

And one argument we had in the room was, this is the Replicator Weir, but what happened to the real Weir? In "This Mortal Coil" [4x10], the Replicator Weir tells Sheppard that her body was destroyed by Oberoth [following the events in "Lifeline," 4x02]. But you wonder -- was she telling the truth? Was Oberoth telling the truth? We had an internal debate in the room, and my thinking was, of course he didn't tell the truth. She was too valuable to him to kill.

And the rule in sci-fi is, if you don't have a body, they're still alive.

Exactly, exactly. He had to have put her on ice, to use later as a source of information or what have you. And the replicators were wiped out, so her body remains in stasis. And ultimately the storyline I would have liked to have pursued would be to have this rebel Weir and the replicators find the real Weir -- it would have been a race to recapture the body between our team and the replicator team, and ultimately how it would have turned out, I don't know.

So there was kind of an idea being discussed, but it hadn't been fully developed.

We, at least, will be taking that idea and running with it, and not leave things hanging. Muahahahaha.

However, I loved the episode for the feelings it showed between them. Just think that if John could show this much emotion and not be sure it was her, what would he do if he found the real Elizabeth? Wow! It would blow everybody's mind. Some of the complaints against this ep were that it didn't make much sense and that she was OOC. Well maybe that was intentional to make us doubt it was her. Her actions didn't make sense if it was the original unaltered Elizabeth. But she was altered in a big way. She may very well have been affected by the nanites and not be totally in control of her own actions. That's why she was so adamant to leave so as not to be a danger to anyone. And that's why John let her. It was what she wanted and needed to do and this time, unlike in Adrift, he wanted to get it right.

But it did make sense that she would save John by killing one of the replicators. And it made sense that he would want her to stay. That's another bit of parallelism that goes back to TMC.

Indeed. I hate what GitM did to Weir (except for the part with her killing Koracen to save John), but damn, I LOVED what it showed us in John's feelings about Elizabeth. What we saw was how much he must care for her in order to set aside what he might want and follow what he knows her wishes would be, by letting a being that might be her go to what amounts to death.

Damn, now I'm getting depressed again.