Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Scary Kitty]

Good morning, Sparkies! It's the day before New Year's Eve and it's raining here in Southern California! Gotta love it.

Eri, that was a killer recap of Lifeline to usher in the last Angsty Wednesday of 2009!

A few of my typically random and snarky comments...

Like the other episodes of the First Strike trilogy, this episode for us a double-edged sword. On the one hand, it's the end of the regular appearances by Elizabeth, one-half of our OTP. On the other hand, the circumstances provide such good evidence for Sparky that without them we might not have been able to make so compelling an argument for why, at the end of Season 5, we feel our ship is pretty darn strong. And while I don't think any of us would have preferred things to have gone this way, it was a better ending than most of us anticipated.

That is why I also both love and hate Lifeline and the entire FS trilogy. Love it for the epic-caliber Sparky goodness, hate it for the fact that to get that epic story, we're losing Elizabeth.

No one can do a better Elizabeth story than Carl Binder, and at this point I think most of TPTW realized that, so they shoved Lifeline at him and said to have fun.

He did.

Oh boy, did he ever!

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii36/ugahill/SGA%20Season%204/lifeline_0054.jpg
I think it's cute how Weir sort of shifts and tucks her gown below her as the group walks in.

Heehee! Totally embarrassed, because OMG, John's gonna see her nekkid legs!

We've had a short time span since the attack that started this mess--maybe a day? Maybe a little more?

That was what I deduced based on my own viewing of the episodes; that the entire FS trilogy takes place within a 24-36 hour period. Which reminds me, I really must get back to fleshing out my SGA timeline...

I suppose the next few scenes are supposed to give us a breather from the intensity of the storyline. I don't have much of an opinion on them. Yes, it was nice to have a breather, but how much of Sam and Dr. Lee do I really want to see? In any case, we know that the SGA is at least looking for Atlantis.

I found the scenes with Carter and Lee more of a distraction than anything else; they probably could've cut at least one or two of those scenes without losing the thread of the search for Atlantis storyline. Or maybe I was still bitter about Carter replacing Weir.

Arriving at Asuras, the group automatically puts their plan into action. Though Elizabeth's 'connecting' with the Replicator Collective is very Matrix, I will admit that the idea--and the special effects--are very cool.

Lizzie pwned Neo. Just sayin'.

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii36/ugahill/SGA%20Season%204/lifeline_0209.jpg
Sparky #4, though Ronon's trying to join in the fun.

Well, we all knew Ronon had a crush on Lizzie...

And then, Rodney makes a suggestion.

Excuse me for a minute.

Spoiler:

*coughs*

!O#&*$@*WFUASDRY&!$@#AWOERJF O AHAS&* !@U$@Q#R& QW*%!@IOJ$RIJFJ@#$!JFSDKFHASD##@$$KLFJSDj FREAKIN' MCKAY!

*coughs*

Word. Rodney, you IDIOT!

To protect Ronon and Sheppard, McKay has programmed the Jumper's cloak into an ARG shield (how this doesn't affect Elizabeth inside the Jumper is anyone's guess, but whatever).

I always figured it was an 'eye of the storm' type thing; Elizabeth is within the shield boundary, but not physically in contact with the actual energy field that the shield is comprised of. If she were to touch that energy, however... or would the part of her that's human shield her from those effects in some way? Food for thought.

Rodney explains the method--Plug n' Play. And the dumbing down of John Sheppard is complete.

And we are not amused. He could've been Mensa, damnit!

And now...it's time to expound on this final moment. As the replicators unfreeze and seize Elizabeth (and we see that Ronon's ARG no longer works), she orders John to leave her behind and run. Sheppard's lifelong philosophy on Atlantis has been 'leave no man behind'.

But that's precisely what he does here (with a little prodding from Ronon). Why?

Click for the 'theory' on this dialogue:

Spoiler:

English Major analysis--and remember this is devil's advocate. I'm not saying this is a strong argument or in any way defends the loss of Elizabeth!:

I think Binder was in a conundrum here. We all know that John would sacrifice everything to save his friends. Writing anything beyond that was out of character for him. Killing off Elizabeth wasn't an option. To do it you'd have to make it look convincing (any kind of 'faint' where she's not clearly dead is going to make Sheppard look cowardly for leaving her) and a convincing death would mean dead for good, which wouldn't work with the subsequent Weir reappearances--you want Atlantis to believe there's a possibility she's alive.

You also can't have them NOT see her, that's a weak ending.

So you do what you can by creating an ironic twist in the story. Here are things we know about John and Elizabeth:

* John generally does what Elizabeth asks of him. His respect for her is pretty much limitless. We saw this to the extremes in Adrift, when he elects not to save her because he knows that's not what she would want, and he was right.

* Elizabeth never really orders John to do anything. We saw the conflict between military and civilian raised in Hot Zone, and though it wasn't resolved, he sort of implies in Siege II that he's got her back. But following that she has always treated him as a co-head and not his boss, and though she initiates missions, etc, she has never really 'commanded' he do anything against his own wishes.

* John doesn't follow orders he thinks are wrong, even if they're from a superior and it will get him in trouble. It's how he got to Atlantis in the first place.

Give that this is the case, I think it's interesting Binder places the words "that's an ORDER!" in Elizabeth's mouth. He flat out states John's philosophy in the dialogue, and Elizabeth counteracts it by shouting something at him he hasn't given much credence to in his career--the order to retreat when someone is being left behind.

So what does John, the black sheep, do?

He follows it.

I think it's interesting. In essence, she's the ONE person he obeys, without question. He hesitates, but he obeys. His respect for Elizabeth and what she wants outweighs almost everything else for him. And this little move reconciles a major flaw in John Sheppard the soldier--the ability to follow orders.

By having Elizabeth make retreat a command, Binder essentially turns John into a 'perfect soldier' at least for a little while. Interesting too is that it's a civilian who makes the call. But it comes about because she's the one person John trusts more than himself. And while he's reluctant to do it, the decision he's faced with is as gut-wrenching as the Adrift decision and the earlier decision with the kill switch: Either 1) stay and fight for Elizabeth, endangering them all and the city--and go against what Elizabeth wants 2) leave her behind, save Atlantis, and do what she really, truly wants of him.

He chooses option 2 because he has to, of course, business being what it was. But at the same time, I think Binder does his best to find a way to salvage John's character in some regard, explain why this situation is different, and, as much as it shatters him, allow him to leave someone he cares about behind. Especially knowing what everyone is going to scream once John turns around and runs.

We may not like it, but it is an interesting POV to consider.

I LOVE this. I think you've totally hit the nail on the head, and this is how I also see John's line of thinking in that moment. One of the things that John and Elizabeth have in common is their commitment to their duty to Atlantis, putting the city and the people in it above even their own lives. Thus, when Elizabeth orders John to leave her behind, he understands why she's asking this of him; if she can no longer be there for Atlantis, she needs to know that he will be there to keep Atlantis safe.

As someone who's been around the block with losing people she cares about, saving people against all odds, etc, I like that Sam supports him here. And to me, she seems to know how he's feeling here and maybe even wants to believe that he can do it. Whatever the case, it's obvious Sam understands quite clearly the depth of connection and the bond between Weir and Sheppard. This won't be the last time we hear her voice something about it.

Though we can still be pissed off at her hypocrisy for not even allowing a recon mission in a cloaked jumper to scan Asuras for Weir. Hell, she could've had Lorne or someone else lead the mission if she was afraid that Sheppard would be too gung-ho on it, but don't just slam the door on it. Sam, you disappointed me.

We're left with John's mourning Elizabeth, but hopeful, too, which is the appropriate way to go--though it's bittersweet, as we have to say goodbye to the Atlantis family we've loved for three years.

*wibbles and clings to fanfic*

[Eri13]

Good morning, Sparkies! It's the day before New Year's Eve and it's raining here in Southern California! Gotta love it.

A few of my typically random and snarky comments...

We luvs your snark!

[Anuna]

*sigh* after a long, crappy day I can just say thatw as a great recap. I'll read it again, once I find some free time, and join the discussion. I'll ahve another extremely crappy work day tomorrow. Wish me luck, sparkies!

[Scary Kitty]

*huggles Probie* A new car? Oh dear, that doesn't sound good!

We luvs your snark!

Sparky snark for the win! *grabs Eri's hands and dances around the room*

*sigh* after a long, crappy day I can just say thatw as a great recap. I'll read it again, once I find some free time, and join the discussion. I'll ahve another extremely crappy work day tomorrow. Wish me luck, sparkies!

Eeep! *sends hugs, cookies, and good luck vibes* :weri:

[pkprd869]

Eri that was a great recap. Spot on with the character analysis. With so much angst, I figured we need some laughs. Another part of the SGA: Faustian Comedy.

Spoiler:

Once More, with Feeling.

John found himself back in Atlantis’ mess hall. Standing in line he saw Elizabeth dishing food on to peoples plates.

“Elizabeth that was the worst wish ever. I was a gun runner and Nancy hated me,” John complained.

“Settle down John. You wanted money and to be married to Nancy. You didn’t mention details,” Elizabeth replied as she sprinkled lemon juice on to the food she was serving.

“You know if Rodney eats that he might die. You want his soul too,” Sheppard quipped.

“Please, Carson will save him. And I have no interest in Rodney’s soul. All that whining and complaining...” Weir scoffed. “Besides, he already ate.”

“Look, the next wish had better go the way I want,” John said.

“Alright, lets see what Nancy likes, shall we?” Elizabeth replied. A second later they were back on Earth in Nancy’s room.

“Let’s see, I know she has a diary around here somewhere,” Weir spoke while looking through some drawers.

“Where are we?” Sheppard asked.

“Nancy’s bedroom,” Elizabeth answered still snooping,

“What if she catches us? Hey, stop going through her stuff,” John replied trying put things back in order.

“She can’t see us or hear us. She can’t interact with us, either. Ah, here it is. You know she’s in the shower if you care to sneak a peek,” Weir pointed out as she flipped through Nancy’s diary.

“I’ve already seen it all before. You can’t read that,” John stated trying to grab Nancy’s diary from Elizabeth.

“You know, women don’t really care about money and power. That’s where lots of people make their first mistake,” Elizabeth explained sitting on the bed.

“Just get on with it,” John replied.

“Here we are. I went out last night. I met these five guys and we came back to my place...”

“What. That’s a lie.”

“I made that part up,” Elizabeth confessed. “I wish there were sensitive guys out there. A man in touch with his emotions and can tell me how he feels,” she read in Nancy’s voice.

“Okay, I got it. I wish I was really sensitive and Nancy was in love with me,” John interrupted her.

“Your wish is my command,” Elizabeth replied.

John looked up from his yellow notepad and saw he was sitting in a cozy room. The walls were lined with book shelves and a small fire place in the corner. Sheppard stood up and went to the large wood desk and picked up one the books lying buy the desk lamp.

“About Behaviorism by B.F. Skinner. I must be a psychiatrist,” John said to himself.

“Dr. Sheppard, your next patient is here to see you,” a voice came over the phone on his desk.

“Send them in,” Sheppard answered.

Nancy came in the room and sat down in one of the chairs set in the middle of the room. John grabbed his notepad and sat down across from her.

“Well Doctor, I’ve had a really bad week. My hamster died and I just can’t stop crying,” Nancy sobbed.

“It’s alright. Death is a natural part of life. We should feel sad when we lose the ones we love,”

John replied as he handed Nancy the Kleenex box.

“I know, but my parents never let me have pets when I was little. How do people go on?” Nancy started crying even harder.

“I understand how you feel. When I was younger I had a frog I found by a pond near my house. I fed him and showed him to all my friends. Then one day he died. I cried for hours. How could such a thing happen when I took such good care of him?” John began tearing up himself.

“Oh Doctor, what did you do?” Nancy asked.

“I saved some of my lawn mowing money and bought a puppy,” Sheppard answered.

“You just replaced poor Yoda,” Nancy began crying again.

“Not replace...Yoda?” John replied a little puzzled.

“Yoda just sounds like a nice name for a frog,” Nancy responded as she dried her eyes.

“That is a nice name,” John said as he begun to cry. “Now every time I walk by a pond I think of ‘Yoda’ and all the fun we had together,” John just let the tears start streaming down his face.

“So if I keep all those found memories in here,” Nancy reached out and placed John’s hand on her heart, “it will be like Chuck is still with me?”

“Chuck?”

“That was my hamster’s name.”

“Oh, well then yes,” John answered drying his eyes.

“Doctor Sheppard, you’re so sensitive. I wish there were more men like you in the world,” Nancy doted.

“Look Nancy, I have a confession to make,” John began and held Nancy’s hand.. “I know this might be inappropriate, but I love you.”

“Doctor, I love you too,” Nancy responded.

“Let’s get outta here,” John stood up and led Nancy out of his office.

Nancy and John held hands as they left the high-rise building. John was whispering sweet nothings in Nancy’s ear as they approached his car. A police officer was writing a ticket and placing it John’s windshield.

“Excuse me, Ronon,” Sheppard looked at the police officer’s name tag, “but is there a problem.”

“Nope,” Ronon replied.

“Well if there’s no problem, why are you writing me a ticket?” John asked politely.

“You parked in front of a fire hydrant,” Ronon pointed out.

“I feel so terrible. What if something happened and the fire department couldn’t put out the fire because of me,” John began whining.

“John, are you okay?” Nancy asked.

“Sir, it’s only a twenty dollar ticket. Don’t be such a baby,” Ronon replied.

“Why are being so hostile?” John said as he placed his hand on Ronon’s shoulder. “I think you were neglected as a child..”

“Sir, please remove your hand from me now,” Ronon warned.

“You just need a hug,” Sheppard said as he hugged Ronon.

“You’re under arrest for assaulting a police officer,” Ronon growled as he broke free and placed John in arm bar, “Sorry ma’am, but your boyfriend is going downtown.”

“Actually, he’s my doctor,” Nancy replied.

“Diddling your patients huh doc,” Ronon insulted Sheppard putting him in the back of the squad car.

“I was just giving you a hug,” John whined.

“Hey, if you’re not busy later maybe you wanna get a drink or something?” Ronon began hitting on Nancy.

“That would be lovely,” Nancy replied batting her eyes.

“You said you loved me,” John said with hurt in his voice.

“I do, John. I really do. But you’re too sensitive. What kind off man cries over a frog or tries to hug the cop giving him a ticket?” Nancy explained.

“Officer, can you help me reach my cell phone? I need to make a call,” Sheppard begged.

“If I do will you stop all that crying?” Ronon growled.

“Yeah,” John replied meekly.

Ronon handed John the cell phone he got from Elizabeth. Sheppard could barely see the numbers through all the tears streaming down his face. But he managed to dial 666.

And SR the big showdown is tomorrow. Care to make a wager...

[Infinite-Possibilities]

The Season 4 openers were easily some of the best episodes in the series, in my opinion. And I feel it is so despite, or perhaps because of, what happened to Dr. Weir. It's not often the show combined that much drama, emotion and intensity. What happened to Elizabeth was an extremely moving and tragic event so the show succeeded in captivating me there. It was also arguably the climax of their whole relationship. It was certainly where I saw it as perhaps the strongest showing of uh, "sparkyness".

I actually thought every episode that Weir had in the Fourth and Fifth Seasons were essentially all very good individually. But it was all together that they didn't work well because the arcs they told were just too unfinished.

So you could say I liked what they did with Weir in Seasons 4 and 5. What I hated was what they didn't do with Elizabeth. Which is to say, much of anything.

[Scary Kitty]

pkprd869, you're a madman, and I love you! LOL! Now we just need for John to slip up and wish for what he really wants... Elizabeth!

The Season 4 openers were easily some of the best episodes in the series, in my opinion. And I feel it is so despite, or perhaps because of, what happened to Dr. Weir. It's not often the show combined that much drama, emotion and intensity. What happened to Elizabeth was an extremely moving and tragic event so the show succeeded in captivating me there. It was also arguably the climax of their whole relationship. It was certainly where I saw it as perhaps the strongest showing of uh, "sparkyness".

I actually thought every episode that Weir had in the Fourth and Fifth Seasons were essentially all very good individually. But it was all together that they didn't work well because the arcs they told were just too unfinished.

So you could say I liked what they did with Weir in Seasons 4 and 5. What I hated was what they didn't do with Elizabeth. Which is to say, much of anything.

Brilliantly stated. There was so much storytelling and character development potential in moving Elizabeth from her safe place in Atlantis to an uncertain future as a POW and possible pawn of Oberoth and the Asuran Replicators, both in terms of what the writers could do with Elizabeth, and in what they could do with her friends and loved ones left behind in Atlantis. But, as has been the story with Weir pretty much from the beginning of the series, they wasted that potential and shoved Weir under the rug, only to pull her out and dust her off to dangle in front of our eyes like a bone, again and again, yet yanking the bone out of our reach and leaving us unsatisfied.

That is what really upsets me about the storyline; not so much that Weir's role on the show was reduced, but that they did it in such a sloppy and intelligence-insulting way when it could've been so much more awesome than what we ended up with. The First Strike trilogy promised us that level of awesomeness... but then TMC, BAMSR and GitM took that soaring jet and crashed it. Damn shame.

[pkprd869]

pkprd869, you're a madman, and I love you! LOL! Now we just need for John to slip up and wish for what he really wants... Elizabeth!

Brilliantly stated. There was so much storytelling and character development potential in moving Elizabeth from her safe place in Atlantis to an uncertain future as a POW and possible pawn of Oberoth and the Asuran Replicators, both in terms of what the writers could do with Elizabeth, and in what they could do with her friends and loved ones left behind in Atlantis. But, as has been the story with Weir pretty much from the beginning of the series, they wasted that potential and shoved Weir under the rug, only to pull her out and dust her off to dangle in front of our eyes like a bone, again and again, yet yanking the bone out of our reach and leaving us unsatisfied.

That is what really upsets me about the storyline; not so much that Weir's role on the show was reduced, but that they did it in such a sloppy and intelligence-insulting way when it could've been so much more awesome than what we ended up with. The First Strike trilogy promised us that level of awesomeness... but then TMC, BAMSR and GitM took that soaring jet and crashed it. Damn shame.

Glad ya got some laughs. I liked TMC and BAMSR. I'll rewatch whilst I make my chicken and rice. Yeah, they treated Weir like an old toy in the attic. You play for a bit, then put it back up and forget about it. You know my feelings on GiTM. Even with the last two minutes of angst it has ZERO value for Weir.

Great. Now that ya got me all worked up, I'll have start my "Weir comes back" story. Dang you and your plot bunnies

[SMB_BOOKS]

Would anyone like to beta my past-due Sparky christmas fic?

It's 2300 words. No smut (sorry, I enjoy reading it, but can't write it at all).

It took me so long to write that I'm sure it needs some tweaking and fine tuning. I am certainly open to suggestions for improvement.

If you are interested, PM me your email addy and I will send it to you.

Thanks!

[Southern Red]

And SR the big showdown is tomorrow. Care to make a wager...

I've been busy busy busy with RL. Not much time to think about the big game. What do you have in mind? Oh, I won't be around tomorrow either. Maybe the winner can write the loser a fic?

[pkprd869]

I've been busy busy busy with RL. Not much time to think about the big game. What do you have in mind? Oh, I won't be around tomorrow either. Maybe the winner can write the loser a fic?

Yeah, I start 7 12's tomorrow. (Seven twelve hour days then a day off). Sure we can bet a fic. Just an itty bitty fic. Kind of like what Eri and I did. And and one more thing...

Rocky Top you'll always be
Home sweet home to me
Good ole Rocky Top
Rocky Top Tennessee

[Lythisrose]

Just wanted to say to Eri that I loved her recap.
Makes me realize how much Elizabeth brought to Atlantis and how sad it is that she was lost.

[Southern Red]

Yeah, I start 7 12's tomorrow. (Seven twelve hour days then a day off). Sure we can bet a fic. Just an itty bitty fic. Kind of like what Eri and I did. And and one more thing...

Rocky Top you'll always be
Home sweet home to me
Good ole Rocky Top
Rocky Top Tennessee

Sounds good. And that's what it's all about. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InPQ0HsSJR0

[pkprd869]

SR Mad props to the Hokie band! The "can-can" and "Jersey Hype", that's almost pretty hardcore. But this is a "Thriller" at around 1:20. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LylbEt9IWh4

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

Eri Just read your recap of Lifeline and I enjoyed it. you did an excellent job. hope you do more like that in 2010.